Toyota Showing Achilles Heel

[Swaro]

My '03 V8 4Runner has not had 1 problem from new for over 3 years now--as a first year vehicle.

My SUV choice was between a Tourareg and the 4Runner. The release of the VW was delayed in the US for several months. So glad it was; I've read and heard first hand all the Tourareg nightmare stories. Too bad. The Tourareg is aesthetically a nicer vehicle than the 4Runner. An interior to die for.

 

[charlier180]

My '03 V8 4Runner has not had 1 problem from new for over 3 years now--as a first year vehicle.

My SUV choice was between a Tourareg and the 4Runner. The release of the VW was delayed in the US for several months. So glad it was; I've read and heard first hand all the Tourareg nightmare stories. Too bad. The Tourareg is aesthetically a nicer vehicle than the 4Runner. An interior to die for.

When I was shopping I too looked at the Touareg and 4Runner.

What I found utterly amazing was difference in the number of owner concerns/complaints between the two vehicles. At one point I stopped counting when the ratio of complaints got to 20 to 1 (Touareg vs 4Runner). It became even more interesting when I learned the 4Runner outsells the Touareg by about 10 to 1.

Bottom line for me was I did not need the the potential headaches and hassles that the Touareg most likely would have given me. After 1.5 years of hassle-free, trouble-free ownership of my 4Runner I have no doubt I made the right decision for me.

BTW, prior to the 4Runner I owned nothing but Volkswagens for 25+ years. When you get a good VW they last forever when you get a bad one ownership is hell on earth(and a money pit too). I totally shocked many of my VW friends when I bought the 4Runner. I find it kinda funny that some of them no longer own VWs either now, including their Touaregs.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

I guess you missed where someone was trying to use money as a qualifier for a "perfect" vehicle.....my point was that no amount of money can buy you a car/truck/suv/boat that can promise 0 problems. Like others above posted, you can spend much more on a Toureg to have more serious issues, and that is a fairly comparable vehicle.

I think what you missed was how irrelevant the Z06 and the GT's price tags are. The Avalon is a family sedan, not a race car. Look at the prices of the cars in the class the GT is in, suddenly it doesn't seem so expensive. Find a $140K car that serves the same purpose as the Avalon. If the mfr. refuses to fix a similar list of problems, then you've got a point.

You honestly don't think other manufacturers have problems they deem as "normal" ? How about Dodge Caravan automatic transmissions since the 80's? Or Ford 3.3L headgaskets all through the 90's? Or VW/Audi electrical system glitches for the last 15 years? You know why all these are shrugged off as normal? Because the manufacturers themselves don't even have a fix.....Eg WHEN your Caravan's tranny blows, you get the same part number to replace it. Just hope it's under warranty, because even tho every one does it, there has never/will never be a campaign.

Didn't you read the post about my Subaru? Let's be real, Toyota could fix most if not all their problems, but they don't. And why should we be comparing Toyota, the wonder company, with manufacturers like Chrysler, Ford and WV? Shouldn't we expect better?

 

[Northof49]

I think what you missed was how irrelevant the Z06 and the GT's price tags are. The Avalon is a family sedan, not a race car. Look at the prices of the cars in the class the GT is in, suddenly it doesn't seem so expensive. Find a $140K car that serves the same purpose as the Avalon. If the mfr. refuses to fix a similar list of problems, then you've got a point.

My point was that there are plenty of expensive vehicles that have nagging problems. I brought it up because someone said "for 30K it should be almost perfect." I wanted to point out that there is no price level for a perfect vehicle....is that so hard to understand??

For example: I have driven Audis that at double the Avalon's price had various problems that were not addressed under warranty.....and there's nothing so exotic about an A6 or an All Road that is an excuse for this; just a sedan that serves the same purpose as an Avalon. What kind of issues? Electrical gremlins in the lighting/turn signal system, clunky transmissions and hung warning/CEL lights for no reason. However, I'm not sure if the manufacturer refused to fix the issues, or just couldn't?

Then you shoot yourself in the foot saying it's acceptable for a 140K flagship car to have problems....because it's a sports car

Didn't you read the post about my Subaru? Let's be real, Toyota could fix most if not all their problems, but they don't. And why should we be comparing Toyota, the wonder company, with manufacturers like Chrysler, Ford and WV? Shouldn't we expect better?

Subaru caved to you because you had a chattering clutch, when cold, out of the warranty? Sorry to tell you, but "they all do that." I'll bet huge money the dealer did it for one reason - IIRC, the warranty claim for a clutch in that Sub is something rediculous like 11 hours, but a good tech can do it much quicker. If it was a 6 hour job that paid 5 hours, I'll bet the outcome would have been different. The logic that they did it because they are a more responsible company is hilarious....this IS the auto industry afterall, and everyone's in it to make money.

 

[JB.]

Toyota Showing Achilles Heel

"They all do it" must be an automatic, boilerplate response. I recently had my 4runner in for a couple of things and took the service writer for a ride trying to induce <a href="http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17181&highlight=downhill" target="_blank">this.</a> <br /> I couldn't find an appropriate hill and so nothing happened; a fact we both acknowledged. It was, at that point in time, a non-issue. When I picked up the truck, he told me he had the tech drive an 06 4runner for comparison and that the tech reported back "they all do it". Interesting, considering there was no "it" involved in this case. Apparently, the service writer had forgotten that and went into automatic response mode.

That said, business is a constant tightrope walk, especially the automotive business. Start spending too much money on customer service and you'll suffer the mis-treatment of shareholders,
dishonest customers who try to take advantage, and fickle customers who, seeing that the price of your product with great customer service has risen too high, go next door to buy a cheaper product.
Add in the incredible minefield of regulations and potential lawsuits that have to be constantly managed, and it's a wonder something this good ever gets produced at all.

 

[Thai]

Besides, this article sounds like a nice piece of proaganda....I wonder how the Big Three split up the bill?

Dude, you sound like this guy:

 

[Swaro]

Charlie:

Yes, reliability is more important in an SUV for me too. I also came from a long history of vw's...never had a problem with any of them. The trend ended with a '92 Passat that I referred to as the German chevy as it's character was not at all German.

Now rack up the miles on a '94 Merc C280 that is easily the best car I have ever owned.

The 4runner is truly a utility vehicle for me. It's my workhorse. And it has never complained once.

 

[Northof49]

Dude, you sound like this guy:

 

[Iowa4Runner]

My point was that there are plenty of expensive vehicles that have nagging problems. I brought it up because someone said "for 30K it should be almost perfect." I wanted to point out that there is no price level for a perfect vehicle....is that so hard to understand??

What you're doing is making an invalid comparison. I'm not going to waste time with an analogy that demonstrates the error in your thinking. You won't get it. By the way, are there lingering problems Ford refuses to fix on the GT? That's the core issue here isn't it?

Then you shoot yourself in the foot saying it's acceptable for a 140K flagship car to have problems....because it's a sports car

Wow we've got a live one here! I never said any such thing. My foot is just fine.

Subaru caved to you because you had a chattering clutch, when cold, out of the warranty? Sorry to tell you, but "they all do that." I'll bet huge money the dealer did it for one reason - IIRC, the warranty claim for a clutch in that Sub is something rediculous like 11 hours, but a good tech can do it much quicker. If it was a 6 hour job that paid 5 hours, I'll bet the outcome would have been different. The logic that they did it because they are a more responsible company is hilarious....this IS the auto industry afterall, and everyone's in it to make money.

More rampant speculation, North? First of all I was still within my warranty period and the dealer did not want to fix it. So much for your labor scam theory. And how would you know what the warranty claim labor hours are for this repair? Do you have a Subaru warranty labor time guide handy?

You're assertion that Subaru could not be better than Toyota about warranty repairs is based on what? What is SO compelling about Toyota's eagerness to fix things under warranty that this idea would be "hilarious" to you?

 

[TRD04RUNNER]

I'm so glad a got 98% perfectly WORKING 04 4R! 35K + mile now and its been working flawless! never been to the dealer for any kind of repair! just 2 little problem like sunroof cover rattle when open and drive seat movement but I can live with that I guess SOME of use luck consumer can Lucky said They been able to move FORWARD!!!

 

[daverunner]

126000 miles...she runs flawlessly, I think I'll keep her for now!

 

[qs933]

I brought it up because someone said "for 30K it should be almost perfect." I wanted to point out that there is no price level for a perfect vehicle....is that so hard to understand??

Since that's my statement, let me clarify as it appears I wasn't clear enough. I agree that no car, regardless of whether it costs $10K or $100K, will be perfect. For example, Mercedes-Benz, has one of the worst defect records in the industry.

My point was that those who purchase a $30K Avalon may be more sensitive to defects - and the way the dealer resolves it - than those who purchase a $15K Corolla. In other words, I believe that there is a greater expectation of perfection with a $30K Toyota than a $15K Toyota.

I wouldn't doubt that the new Avalon may simply have a higher defect rate, for whatever reason. That's definitely something Toyota needs to fix, and I don't doubt that they will. However, I think the issue needs to be looked at in context and not with a mass-hysteria, "Toyota is turning into Ford or, gasp, VW," kind of sensationalism.

 

[Northof49]

More rampant speculation, North? First of all I was still within my warranty period and the dealer did not want to fix it. So much for your labor scam theory. And how would you know what the warranty claim labor hours are for this repair? Do you have a Subaru warranty labor time guide handy?

You're assertion that Subaru could not be better than Toyota about warranty repairs is based on what? What is SO compelling about Toyota's eagerness to fix things under warranty that this idea would be "hilarious" to you?

I used to have a labour guide handy, but it was about 6 months and a different job ago since I looked up that Subaru clutch job. I know it's one of those that pays decent hours compared to actual time, just can't remember the exact numbers. Shops will take on jobs like this if/when they want or need the work, no big mystery.

What is so compelling? How about Toyota replacing all the steering center links on 89-95 4x4 4R's, pickups and T-100's? How many companies would bother to do that for haggerd 15+ y/o vehicles with hundred-thousands of miles? Particularily when failure rates are VERY low? Huge 88-95 3.0L headgasket campaign (out of warranty) in which many people got entire new motors? You can walk into Toyota and get a damn windshield wiper motor for your 91 Previa on the house if it hasn't been done yet.

Does Subaru warranty the HG's that blow all time out of warranty? No. Did Ford ever have a campaign for the 3.3L HG? No. Did Chrysler ever campaign the Caravan auto trannies? No. Does Ford replace the balljoints or brakes that wear out every 40,000kms on your F-series for life? No. Did all of these (large) problems exist under warranty and continue to exist post-warranty? Yes.

Toyota's not perfect, and you will never quote me as saying that. However, I do believe they are as responsible an automaker as it gets.

 

[Northof49]

Since that's my statement, let me clarify as it appears I wasn't clear enough. I agree that no car, regardless of whether it costs $10K or $100K, will be perfect. For example, Mercedes-Benz, has one of the worst defect records in the industry.

My point was that those who purchase a $30K Avalon may be more sensitive to defects - and the way the dealer resolves it - than those who purchase a $15K Corolla. In other words, I believe that there is a greater expectation of perfection with a $30K Toyota than a $15K Toyota.

I wouldn't doubt that the new Avalon may simply have a higher defect rate, for whatever reason. That's definitely something Toyota needs to fix, and I don't doubt that they will. However, I think the issue needs to be looked at in context and not with a mass-hysteria, "Toyota is turning into Ford or, gasp, VW," kind of sensationalism.

That's exactly what my first post was getting at, but obviously I failed miserably due to a deadly combination of attempted humour and too many schoolteachers/engineers on this forum





Disclaimer: (That was a joke as well, please feel no further need to over-analyse me)

 

[Iowa4Runner]

I used to have a labour guide handy, but it was about 6 months and a different job ago since I looked up that Subaru clutch job. I know it's one of those that pays decent hours compared to actual time, just can't remember the exact numbers. Shops will take on jobs like this if/when they want or need the work, no big mystery.

The big mystery is why Subaru told dealers they'd pay for the parts and labor time, yet my dealer balked. It has nothing to do with the shop needing work. Subaru came through on this one, period.

What is so compelling? How about Toyota replacing all the steering center links on 89-95 4x4 4R's, pickups and T-100's? How many companies would bother to do that for haggerd 15+ y/o vehicles with hundred-thousands of miles? Particularily when failure rates are VERY low?

Sounds like a safety related recall of a defective part, that if un-addressed could lead to massive lawsuits and a huge publicity disaster. It's good that Toyota did this, but it far from puts them in the warranty hall of fame. As for the head gaskets, myself and all the other owners I've corresponded with have not had a blown head gasket. I'd like to hear the whole story about the head gaskets Toyota supposedly replaced out of warranty, because that spirit of warranty service is LONG GONE from the Toyota of today.

I need to cut this short and say regarding warranty repair, the bottom line it that Subaru has taken care of me and Toyota has blown me off. Toyota is seriously blowing off Avalon owners. Nothing about this is hilarious.

 

[Koz]

The bottom line is Toyota and Lexus are the most reliable vehicles on the road but they are no different from most other manufacture when it comes time for warranty work. Again, they all suck!

Koz

 

[Thai]

The bottom line is Toyota and Lexus are the most reliable vehicles on the road but they are no different from most other manufacture when it comes time for warranty work. Again, they all suck!

Koz

I agree. They are not immune to 1st year bugs either. However, they are relatively speaking the best of the bunch in terms of reliability and quality control.

When it comes to customer services, i doubt that Toyota is any better than other manufacturers. However, i do think that Lexus is relatively speaking better than most manufacturers in terms of warranty repairs.

 

[Northof49]

Sounds like a safety related recall of a defective part, that if un-addressed could lead to massive lawsuits and a huge publicity disaster. It's good that Toyota did this, but it far from puts them in the warranty hall of fame. As for the head gaskets, myself and all the other owners I've corresponded with have not had a blown head gasket. I'd like to hear the whole story about the head gaskets Toyota supposedly replaced out of warranty, because that spirit of warranty service is LONG GONE from the Toyota of today.

I need to cut this short and say regarding warranty repair, the bottom line it that Subaru has taken care of me and Toyota has blown me off. Toyota is seriously blowing off Avalon owners. Nothing about this is hilarious.

The relay-rod recall is because a couple of them failed somewhere in the US....taking into consideration that parts fail all the time on 15 y/o trucks with 300,000 miles on them, I'd say invoking a voluntary recall is stepping up to the plate fairly well. Canadian vehicles are affected as well, even tho to date there have been 0 documented failures in Canada.

The 3VZ-FE 3.0L V6's are found in 4R's and PU's from 88-95. The HG wasn't up to par (american supplier problem IIRC, not like it matters) to deal with the needs of the iron block/alum. head combo. Many lasted 200,000 miles, other's didn't. In the late 90's Toyota had a voluntary campaign to fix all affected vehicles. If the anything else was damaged by a malfunctioning HG, they replaced it, which included many heads, shortblocks and longblocks. Although many were worn anyways, because these were already older vehicles, and maintenence is anyone's guess. That's pretty much the whole story there....the campaign is ongoing, so if anyone has a 3.0 with a HG problem they can check if it's in VIN range or been done yet. I think you would be hard pressed to find another manufacturer that stepped up like that on a similar situation. Walk into Ford and ask them to replace the motor in your 95 Windstar because the 3.3L HG let go....

I've seen a consistant number late 90's early 00's Subaru 4 bangers blowing HG's with average mileage (100-200,000kms). I know plenty of people with the stock Toyota HG on the 3.0L 3VZ's, but it's still a problem.

In the end, I think most of the blame can be put on individual dealers, rather than Toyota itself.

 

[Iowa4Runner]

The relay-rod recall is because a couple of them failed somewhere in the US....taking into consideration that parts fail all the time on 15 y/o trucks with 300,000 miles on them, I'd say invoking a voluntary recall is stepping up to the plate fairly well. Canadian vehicles are affected as well, even tho to date there have been 0 documented failures in Canada.

The 3VZ-FE 3.0L V6's are found in 4R's and PU's from 88-95. The HG wasn't up to par (american supplier problem IIRC, not like it matters) to deal with the needs of the iron block/alum. head combo. Many lasted 200,000 miles, other's didn't. In the late 90's Toyota had a voluntary campaign to fix all affected vehicles. If the anything else was damaged by a malfunctioning HG, they replaced it, which included many heads, shortblocks and longblocks. Although many were worn anyways, because these were already older vehicles, and maintenence is anyone's guess. That's pretty much the whole story there....the campaign is ongoing, so if anyone has a 3.0 with a HG problem they can check if it's in VIN range or been done yet. I think you would be hard pressed to find another manufacturer that stepped up like that on a similar situation. Walk into Ford and ask them to replace the motor in your 95 Windstar because the 3.3L HG let go....

I've seen a consistant number late 90's early 00's Subaru 4 bangers blowing HG's with average mileage (100-200,000kms). I know plenty of people with the stock Toyota HG on the 3.0L 3VZ's, but it's still a problem.

In the end, I think most of the blame can be put on individual dealers, rather than Toyota itself.

After doing some searching, it appears this "blown" head gasket problem with Subaru is actually a cooling leak that some owners have experienced. Toyota's head gasket problem was different and more severe. But like Toyota, Subaru extended the head gasket warranty to 8 years, 100,000 miles.

The Toyota of today has evolved into a warranty weasel. My 4Runner is one of the few lucky ones that left the factory with a nice case of piston slap. The piston(s) bang around the cylinder walls loud enough to sound like a diesel. It's honestly an embarrassment to drive during these episodes. Compared to other 2UZ-FE's, my engine is losing aluminum and other wear metals at double the average rate. If Toyota is so eager to swap out heads, short blocks and long blocks, why can't they fix my 1 or 2 cylinders?

If I decide to sell this vehicle, I'll have to hide this defect and plan the sale for a time when the weather is warm. I don't feel right about doing that.

I also hear a loose metallic rattling sound in my transmission when it's in 4th gear. God only knows what that is, I didn't bother to ask the dealer about it.

Here's one fresh off the hotline... A friend at work has an '04 Echo with a nasty rubbing / grinding sound coming from the front right wheel. The dealer told him this new noise was caused by "modulation of the power steering system" and is of course, "normal". If nothing else, these guys certainly have some talent in the creativity department.

Sorry to be such a downer, but I'm having trouble letting go of the bitterness I feel toward Toyota after the treatment my colleagues and I have been given by the area dealers.

 

[4RunnerSE2006]

In conclusion, i will NEVER buy a 1st year model, even from Toyota/Lexus. This is troubling because when the LS430 was introduced to the public a few years ago, it went right to the top in all quality surveys. Same for SC430.

Today, Lexus is not even immune to 1st year bugs. Hopefully, it has not fallen into what GM went thru in the 80's and early 90's with overexpansion and losing quality control in the process.

Thai, I guess you forgot not too long ago you had told someone it is OK to go with a 1st year FJ.

You might want to find that guy and recall it.

Just teasing man. I agree. I actually do not believe in buying any 1st year model regadless of the brand. LEasing is a different story though...