Toyota Showing Achilles Heel
- Thread starter Thai
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bryanintexas
New member
60L said:Between the dealership and the problems I had with my '05 Runner I got rid of it and went back to Chevy. I really enjoyed my 4Runner so please don't think i'm bashing Toyota in fact I had a Prerunner before that. Sulpher smell, window chips/cracks, paint defects, wheel shudder, rattles heck I could get all that with an American vehicleAnyway I was disappointed with the issues and the lack of support from the dealership. The Chevy dealership is quite different from that and has a bullet-proof rep in my area with an excellent service department. I will miss the XRAES suspension and peppy V6 but gotta do what you gotta do! I had been reading this site for a year and only registered to tell you what a big help you've been and appreciate all the knowledge you folks have on the 4Runner. This is truly the best 4Runner site out there. Last thing, any vehicle you buy today is a roll of the dice everyone has great vehicles and some lemons but I still believe your odds are better with Toyota :cheers:
very true, you need to have a decent staff @ your local dealer, otherwise, it`s a constant uphill battle....
Baba Booey
New member
You know, after thinking about this statement, it dawned on me that there is a difference between the Toyota and other foreign car dealerships in my (extended) area and the local domestic dealerships. And actually, I believe the local domestic dealerships are much better.bryanintexas said:
I live in small-town America where many of the domestic dealerships are small, family-owned businesses that have been in business for generations. I know some of the owners personally as they live in the towns where the dealerships are located, and in one instance, my kids go to school with their kids. They are an active and vital part of the local business and social community.
On the other hand, there are very few foreign car dealers in my local area. For the most part, the vast majority of them are located in small to mid-sized cities within about an hour's drive (50-60 miles). Typically, they are part of a larger network of dealerships that sell Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, Acuras, Lexus, etc. at different locations. I have no idea who the owners are or where they live.
I truly believe these local small-town domestic dealerships in my area provide superior service. Too bad they don't sell superior vehicles.
bryanintexas
New member
Agreed. The dealer I work for is family owned and oriented. We are on the outskirts of Houston and needless to say, there are some 8-10 other "Toyota only" stores within a short driving distance, but most of our customers are repeat and local, as well as referred from family and friends. Very loyal because they don`t feel lost in the system of a big-mega-dealership. We have little turn-over in the service and parts staff as well as at least 2/3 of the sales staff.
It makes a huge difference when you go in a business as a consumer and you are greeted by people who know you and you have dealt w/ before. No pressure, no sales pitch, just straight up business and a friendly smile.
It makes a huge difference when you go in a business as a consumer and you are greeted by people who know you and you have dealt w/ before. No pressure, no sales pitch, just straight up business and a friendly smile.
On our 2nd Toyota 4Runner tow vehicle now, with c. 40K tow miles (my Porsche 911 track car) overall. IMHO, this is the best tow vehicle there is, and I won't consider another brand based on past performance.
Well, I might consider a Lexus, but you know what I mean! Toyota and the Tahara assembly plant are as good as it gets!!!!!
Well, I might consider a Lexus, but you know what I mean! Toyota and the Tahara assembly plant are as good as it gets!!!!!
Thai
Elite Member
First-hand account of assembly line:
A lot of talk on this thread is about Job 1 quality vs. Job XXX. . .
As someone that spent over 7 years in one of Ford's Assembly Plants I can say they do watch the first run vehicles with more of a magnifying glass then later builds, but. . . the quality is still a little worse as the workers are still learning how to assemble it, and the designers are still tweaking parts. It takes time to get "a feel" for how each part goes together when it's right.
I was involved in 2 model changes and each time they'd send us down one at a time to learn our new job. Once everyone knew it they send a single car down the line, mixed in with whatever we were building at the time. Over the course of 4-6 months we'd move up to a few cars, then 8-10 at a time, a few times a day. They'd then shut the plant down to do the complete change over and when we'd start back up we'd run about 2-5 an hour and work our way up for a couple months to full line speed. . . which was 58 an hour.
All the building up to speed wasn't because we couldn't do the job. It was because of problems. There is constant job swapping going on as they'll realize that headliner guy can install that wire on the firewall better than the guys installing the instrument panel. Etc. So most peoples jobs will change a few times before they get them all figured out. Then the designers will change a 100 different things also. They'll find out the rivets that hold such and such part are too small. The wires for this or that are prone to rubbing on this or that causing an electrical gremlin. Etc. It's a lot of small things that can ruin a new car experience. Once they get all that figured out then they'll go through the phase were XX numbers of workers have jobs that are overloaded so they'll half ass it because they don't have the time to build it right. Finally, they'll get all that figured out and workers can then get that "feel" for how everything fits together perfect. Only time will allow the workers the practice they need to build the highest quality vehicles.
Personally. . . having been on the "inside". . . I would NEVER buy a early model run vehicle. . . nor a Friday night or Monday morning build. I've seen waaaaaay too many people half drunk / stoned on Friday nights. And way too many people that just "don't care" on Monday mornings. (Vodka and "mini thins" were real popular around our plant.)
We'll be buying an Unlimited, but we'll wait til they've been out for at least 6 months, and we'll find one on a lot so I can check the build day / time, and give it a good looking over.
Hip
Edit: I guess I should point out the obvious that not everyone working in an assembly plant is mechanically inclined. 80% of the people I worked with didn't have a clue. Unlike a lot of us that could easily figure out if something was wrong, they just didn't know. For example, on the Ford Contour the cruise control module is held in by three lock nuts under the drivers front fender. When we first started building them I kept seeing the module wiggling when it crossed over from one line to the next. I finally reached over and grabbed one and realized it wasn't tight. The girl that was supposed to be hand starting the nuts was putting them in the gun first, then installing them. . . because "it was too hard to reach under there." As such she was cross-threading about 40% of the nuts. I caught it about 6 hours into the shift. At 58 an hour. . . well, you do the math. I would hope they all got fixed out in the yard, but who knows. Just another reason to wait for a later build date. After that day they had someone grabbing each module to make sure it was tight. All part of the initial build up.
A lot of talk on this thread is about Job 1 quality vs. Job XXX. . .
As someone that spent over 7 years in one of Ford's Assembly Plants I can say they do watch the first run vehicles with more of a magnifying glass then later builds, but. . . the quality is still a little worse as the workers are still learning how to assemble it, and the designers are still tweaking parts. It takes time to get "a feel" for how each part goes together when it's right.
I was involved in 2 model changes and each time they'd send us down one at a time to learn our new job. Once everyone knew it they send a single car down the line, mixed in with whatever we were building at the time. Over the course of 4-6 months we'd move up to a few cars, then 8-10 at a time, a few times a day. They'd then shut the plant down to do the complete change over and when we'd start back up we'd run about 2-5 an hour and work our way up for a couple months to full line speed. . . which was 58 an hour.
All the building up to speed wasn't because we couldn't do the job. It was because of problems. There is constant job swapping going on as they'll realize that headliner guy can install that wire on the firewall better than the guys installing the instrument panel. Etc. So most peoples jobs will change a few times before they get them all figured out. Then the designers will change a 100 different things also. They'll find out the rivets that hold such and such part are too small. The wires for this or that are prone to rubbing on this or that causing an electrical gremlin. Etc. It's a lot of small things that can ruin a new car experience. Once they get all that figured out then they'll go through the phase were XX numbers of workers have jobs that are overloaded so they'll half ass it because they don't have the time to build it right. Finally, they'll get all that figured out and workers can then get that "feel" for how everything fits together perfect. Only time will allow the workers the practice they need to build the highest quality vehicles.
Personally. . . having been on the "inside". . . I would NEVER buy a early model run vehicle. . . nor a Friday night or Monday morning build. I've seen waaaaaay too many people half drunk / stoned on Friday nights. And way too many people that just "don't care" on Monday mornings. (Vodka and "mini thins" were real popular around our plant.)
We'll be buying an Unlimited, but we'll wait til they've been out for at least 6 months, and we'll find one on a lot so I can check the build day / time, and give it a good looking over.
Hip
Edit: I guess I should point out the obvious that not everyone working in an assembly plant is mechanically inclined. 80% of the people I worked with didn't have a clue. Unlike a lot of us that could easily figure out if something was wrong, they just didn't know. For example, on the Ford Contour the cruise control module is held in by three lock nuts under the drivers front fender. When we first started building them I kept seeing the module wiggling when it crossed over from one line to the next. I finally reached over and grabbed one and realized it wasn't tight. The girl that was supposed to be hand starting the nuts was putting them in the gun first, then installing them. . . because "it was too hard to reach under there." As such she was cross-threading about 40% of the nuts. I caught it about 6 hours into the shift. At 58 an hour. . . well, you do the math. I would hope they all got fixed out in the yard, but who knows. Just another reason to wait for a later build date. After that day they had someone grabbing each module to make sure it was tight. All part of the initial build up.
Swaro said:
I have been dissapointed in my 2005 4runner. First, the ECU died at 11k and the car was out of service for 21 days. The ECU was handled adequately by the dealer but I wouldn't say they went out of their way. Then there's the dreaded clunk when idling. The clunk, Toyota says is normal. Then every once in a while when I step on the brakes, my door locks sound like they are unlocking. Of course, the problem dissapears a mile from the dealer.
Face it folks, the only reason to get a Toyota is reliability. It's not like they are as luxurious as an Audi or handle like a BMW.
I leased a BMW which had a number of minor issues -- all taken care of w/o question by BMW. Completely different level of service. They went out of their way. Once, I brought the car in because the front seat wouldn''t move. Dealer pulled out a jammed baseball.
I bought a Toyota for long-term reliability and knowingly sacrificed handling and luxury.
I regret the choice.
Last edited:
Thai
Elite Member
Faces In The News
Toyota's Watanabe Downshifts A Gear
Chris Noon, 08.25.06, 11:45 AM ET
How many fiascos does it take to ruin a reputation?
Toyota Motor's president Katsuaki Watanabe, who admitted Friday that the automaker's mission to improve quality control and reduce recalls could delay some of its models, is discovering that rapid expansion can be dangerous.
Watanabe, who denied that there was a decision to delay models across the board, saying that the development of individual vehicles would be decided case-by-case, is said to be considering slowing the development of some new models by as much as half a year because of quality problems.
The Japanese automaker's sterling reputation for manufacturing safe and reliable cars, the cornerstone of its success over the past decade, may have been compromised by a litany of recalls. In May 2005, Toyota issued a recall to replace faulty mechanical components that will end up involving around one million cars worldwide, over half of them in Japan. Later the company announced the recall of some 400,000 sport-utility vehicles (SUVs) in the U.S. More recently, Toyota said that it will recall over 20,000 Crown sedans made in China because of defective rubber strips that seal the windshields.
"Toyota's reputation for mechanical reliability and component quality is second to none and it is unusual for the company to announce such a wide-ranging, albeit minor, recall," writes Global Insight analyst Thomas Ryard.
"It will take an awful lot to dent that reputation," Ryard's colleague, Paul Newton, tells Forbes.com. "But a classic case in point is Mercedes. They had an excellent reputation and they successfully managed to ruin that."
Mercedes-Benz is a division of DaimlerChrysler.
There is also a sense that Toyota is a victim of its own success.
"Recalls are also rising because carmakers are introducing more new vehicle models than at any time in the past decade, and almost all carmakers have accelerated new product programs and are seeking to enter almost every product segment to gain market shares," Ryard points out.
"At group level, Toyota sales have increased 60% over the past ten years to reach almost 8 million units in 2005."
Speaking in Tokyo, Watanabe denied the recalls occurred because Toyota rushed the development of some models. "I feel we are making progress," Watanabe told reporters. He also said he did not know of any specific models that could be delayed by the changes.
His decision to slow product launch cycles may be prudent. It is an indication that Toyota wishes to check its breathless global expansion in order to maintain sustainable growth. Watanabe recently said that "the world-class quality that we've built is our lifeline. There will be no growth without an improvement in quality. This is the biggest task that this management team must undertake."
Toyota's Watanabe Downshifts A Gear
Chris Noon, 08.25.06, 11:45 AM ET
How many fiascos does it take to ruin a reputation?
Toyota Motor's president Katsuaki Watanabe, who admitted Friday that the automaker's mission to improve quality control and reduce recalls could delay some of its models, is discovering that rapid expansion can be dangerous.
Watanabe, who denied that there was a decision to delay models across the board, saying that the development of individual vehicles would be decided case-by-case, is said to be considering slowing the development of some new models by as much as half a year because of quality problems.
The Japanese automaker's sterling reputation for manufacturing safe and reliable cars, the cornerstone of its success over the past decade, may have been compromised by a litany of recalls. In May 2005, Toyota issued a recall to replace faulty mechanical components that will end up involving around one million cars worldwide, over half of them in Japan. Later the company announced the recall of some 400,000 sport-utility vehicles (SUVs) in the U.S. More recently, Toyota said that it will recall over 20,000 Crown sedans made in China because of defective rubber strips that seal the windshields.
"Toyota's reputation for mechanical reliability and component quality is second to none and it is unusual for the company to announce such a wide-ranging, albeit minor, recall," writes Global Insight analyst Thomas Ryard.
"It will take an awful lot to dent that reputation," Ryard's colleague, Paul Newton, tells Forbes.com. "But a classic case in point is Mercedes. They had an excellent reputation and they successfully managed to ruin that."
Mercedes-Benz is a division of DaimlerChrysler.
There is also a sense that Toyota is a victim of its own success.
"Recalls are also rising because carmakers are introducing more new vehicle models than at any time in the past decade, and almost all carmakers have accelerated new product programs and are seeking to enter almost every product segment to gain market shares," Ryard points out.
"At group level, Toyota sales have increased 60% over the past ten years to reach almost 8 million units in 2005."
Speaking in Tokyo, Watanabe denied the recalls occurred because Toyota rushed the development of some models. "I feel we are making progress," Watanabe told reporters. He also said he did not know of any specific models that could be delayed by the changes.
His decision to slow product launch cycles may be prudent. It is an indication that Toyota wishes to check its breathless global expansion in order to maintain sustainable growth. Watanabe recently said that "the world-class quality that we've built is our lifeline. There will be no growth without an improvement in quality. This is the biggest task that this management team must undertake."
