Transmission cooler: to by-pass the radiator or not to by-pass it

[Nelsonmd]

Ok, I hate to flame this, but we need to correct a couple things here...

Well just let us all know when Mr. Toyota calls you up and offers you a job. Then we'll take your advice to the bank.

Don't start thinking that Toyota doesn't make mistakes (and big ones at that). Singtoe and I discussed how to improve the design of the 3rd gen's ball joint to prevent the catastrophic failures that have happened a number of times, and often results in a roll-over, and lo and behold, Milowilli showed that Toyota made the exact changes we were talking about on the 4th gen 4runners.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-g...st-lower-ball-joint-failure-2.html#post914575

Also, someone can correct me if I am wrong here, but I believe they did away with separate tranny coolers for the V6 4th gen, and went to a proper external cooler (not radiator integrated like the 3rd gen) for the V8 4th gen. Not sure what the 5th gens have. Even if I am wrong on this one, I am willing to bet that at very least Toyota has redesigned the interface between the rad and tranny cooler to prevent the milkshake. Let's bring in the Toyota evolution to this discussion, because that will likely suggest where Toyota saw weaknesses in their own designs.

This wasn't meant to belittle or call all those who did this mod f'ing idiots. It simply was to point out that it is not right for everyone. Someone may find it works good for them. For some who don't understand what exactly they are messing with, it is meant to help open their eyes and make an informed choice.

Sure, help people make an informed choice, but in order to do that, you have to present information and let everyone draw their own conclusion, don't say crap like "A small single cooler will be incapable of cooling the transmission." ("smaller" referring to smaller than the coolers you pictured). You don't know that coolers smaller than the ones you posted CAN'T cool the tranny, so quit making statements of fact that you can't back up with real scientifically acquired evidence. Keep it a discussion.

This cult like mod is showing just how off balance some people are. If you don't like my opinion, ignore it. You all certainly have plenty of threads to show how smart you are. Not one of you have even considered discussing the merits or even the rationale of why it was designed this way to begin with. Only the evils of the one in a million risks of a broken radiator. When in fact, most failures have come from a lack of maintenance on the owners part.

Hitting a coyote? Really! That's your argument to delete the radiator? Stupid
comes to mind but I wouldn't say that outloud. How many millions of vehicles have a cooler inside the radiator and and just how many fail? It's infitesimal.

There what's possible and what's probable. The probability is small. So small it's not worth losing sleep over.

If you plan on running over some wild life, put your skid plate on. If you plan on trailing the rig, buy a better skid plate. But to scare the daylights out of some uninformed new T4r owner is wrong. I said it before, it's your truck, go ahead and break it if you want to.

This is the first I have heard of hitting wildlife and causing a milkshake, but it doesn't seem out of the question, and yeah, it sure seems to me that having a skid plate on would be the best way to prevent that.

But your probabilities are WAY off. These failures are NOT an infinitesimal probability, nor are they anywhere near 1 in a million... I can't find all the sales figures, but 2000 was their best year, and here is 2000-2002

2000 111,797
2001 90,250
2002 77,026

So over the 7 year life of the 3rd gen lets say they produced at most 700k for the US market. A fraction of those were 4cyl, so 700k is way more than they actually made. On this forum alone there have been probably at least 10 people that have had a milkshake (and posted it). This forum is a statistically tiny fraction of the whole population. This was not a miniscule issue, just like the ball joint problem was not miniscule. It wasn't enough for a recall, but it was enough that Toyota changed their design for the next generation.

*By bypassing the radiator you'll guarrantee that you'll run your truck the way it wasn't designed to be run. Tbst is correct.

This is kind of a tautological argument... What it suggests though is that the way it was designed is best, and should be preserved, and I disagree with that. Big picture I agree, since Toyota's are basically the most reliable vehicles on the road, but I won't defend their mistakes, which they do make. We can't just blindly say that they know the best way to do everything.

Also, you can position your external cooler in front (coldest), between (middle of the road) or behind the radiator (warmest) to get different cooling rates. The B&M instructions discuss this; they recommend in front (coolest), but they are trying to acheive maximum cooling, so if that isn't what you want, then you can position it differently.




I love discussions like this, because we do end up getting some great information out there, but if you assert a fact, then you better have the scientific data to back it up.

In God we trust, all others bring data.

 

[Drcoffee]

fail it did.... this thread go so side tracked and derailed its not even funny... i feel bad now, this thread is one of the reasons i am not as active as i used to be.... i get too "wound up" sometimes, and its hard for me to let things go. then you compound that with what ever else is going in "my" life out side t4r, and yeah, i can act like my screen name.

Like I said "CULT LIKE Mod" Almost a salivating rabid response from the few who post in every related thread. At this point though, I have succeeded in my attempt to enlighten the members through the unwitting help of my cultist friends here at T4r. Thanks guys. If a few people think it through and its right for them, great. If someone else decides its fantasy in action, great too. But at least its no longer a "MUST DO" mod.

Fact: the air cooled external coolers like what I have seen posted, such as B&M have a thermal efficiency of a 20 degrees drop "at best." If you run two you get 40 degrees in simplistic terms. If you are cool (pun intended) with that as the best you can do no matter what you happen to be doing with your truck and you also don't care if you run your tranny at below freezing temps until friction from sudge like tranny fluid can raise the operating temps up in an hours time(supposition), then I say go for.

Fact: Aftermarket manufactures state that you should not install their coolers with both ports facing up. The rationale is that freezing conditions will cause the trans fluid it gel or freeze and restrict flow upon start up. The radiator helps raise the tranny fluid up to operating temp in short order. Every mechanical device has an optimal operating temperature range it was designed to function properly. When you broaden that temp range intentionally, you are forcing the machine to work outside its optimal (engineered) range causing premature wear.

Would you hop in you car on cold start up and race around in it? The stupid ones do but we can all agree that's not good practice. proper care would instruct us, give the engine time to warm up and equalize temps through out before hard accerlation, etc. Well, that's what the transmission is doing everytime you drive it. You are making it build its own heat through friction to get up to speed. Then you hope that your little air cooled B&M can keep the temps down. If it does, good for you. If it doesn't, oops. Maybe Silver and tsbt will warranty your transmission for you. Doubtful, they will have trashed their rigs by then and have moved on, disappearing like a fart in the wind.

Fact: if you re-route the trans lines away from the radiator on a new vehicle, you will void your warranty. Admittedly, anything voids your warranty but the fact remains. Good intentions aside.

Nelsonmd: I'm not just referring to total T4Rs on the street. I'm talking about total global sales of all motor vehicles on the road. Miniscule is probably a better word when we discuss the probability of failure. If your truck has high miles and over 6 years old (arbitray numbers I would use for discussion basis) and you want to push it up and down trails without updating the maintenance, you are unrealistic and bound to have issues.

Ball joints: No the ball joints worked fine through their usable life and people who don't do maintenance found out they can fail. But you would suggest that we do away with ball joints altogether because they could fail. Hmm. So Toyota redesigned the LBJ so the stud points up and the problem has been solved. Buy a better radiator with a differently designed integrated cooler and the problem will be solved. Gee, what a concept. Fix the problem rather than delete it.

Manufactures aren't perfect in all their choices. However, they do design transmissions to operate within certain tolerances which you profess to ignore. Whether Toyota has changed the setup of new trucks is irrelevant. The new trucks would have been designed to run that way. If it was the right choice for older vehicles they would have had a TSB or some memo telling dealers to disconnect the cooler because after decades of market research, it was determined to be entirely useless.

Again, the discussion has been a resounding success. Now you make your own choice.

 

[4-Ripcord]

Why dont you hop off toyotas d*ck for a second and think.

Toyota makes mistakes, they design things that end up failing. Such as the ball joints and the antennas and the radiator.

FACT: The radiator failure is a common issue, we see multiple every year. And it pains me every time i see one.

FACT: the B&M cooler keeps the temps in a perfectly acceptable range. (I have a S/C and drive in NM summers and its still around 160-170. So dont say external coolers dont work, youre just wrong there.

FACT: not a single trans failure has been reported by anyone who bypassed the radiator. It has solved the milkshake issue for tons of people. Some members have been running just an external cooler for many years and are still good as new.

Yes, those in cold climates should replace the radiator instead as a said in the buyers guide, but not all of us live in the great white north for crying outloud. And DO NOT say that external coolers dont work. Thats just ignorant.

End of discussion. Im unsubbing this thread, nothing more needs to be said.

 

[Qyota]

Are you even reading the counter argument?

If you are cool (pun intended) with that as the best you can do no matter what you happen to be doing with your truck and you also don't care if you run your tranny at below freezing temps until friction from sudge like tranny fluid can raise the operating temps up in an hours time(supposition), then I say go for.

Your "supposition" qualifier is great and all, but it's factually false. Those of us with REAL EXPERIENCE and DATA can easily refute this. Sludge-like tranny fluid? What do you think ATF is, karo syrup?

The radiator helps raise the tranny fluid up to operating temp in short order. Every mechanical device has an optimal operating temperature range it was designed to function properly. When you broaden that temp range intentionally, you are forcing the machine to work outside its optimal (engineered) range causing premature wear.

Where is your data that helps support this argument? When it's cold out (let's say 20F or below), the radiator won't even BEGIN to warm until the thermostat opens. Even when the coolant begins to warm, the very bottom of the radiator is still ambient air temperature. I'd argue that the ATF warms FASTER in cool/cold weather because it ISN'T being cooled by the still-cold coolant, and is instead circulating normally (or being slowed by the thermal bypass) in it's own closed system.

You are making it build its own heat through friction to get up to speed. Then you hope that your little air cooled B&M can keep the temps down. If it does, good for you. If it doesn't, oops.

Once again, REAL DATA from my own experience says YES, my little external cooler does a fine job of keeping the temps down. What do you have to support your argument?

If it was the right choice for older vehicles they would have had a TSB or some memo telling dealers to disconnect the cooler because after decades of market research, it was determined to be entirely useless.

And who exactly is saying it's "useless"? It works fine, it's just prone to failure.

You're completely missing some very key points, and choosing to ignore actual evidence that refutes much of your argument. Wake up!

 

[3rd gen king]

Just do what you want, it's nobody truck but yours..
And btw I decided to NOT do it

 

[tbst]

That paragraph touched on everything except one thing: you have zero data to support your claims. Zero. None. Zilch.

Typing paragraphs of nonsense doesn't make up for it.

Using your own logic I shouldn't bring my Camry in because the accelerator getting stuck was part of the initial design. And I shouldn't question it because I am not a Toyota engineer.

 

[brian4t]

I wonder how many members here have their original radiator with 200+K miles? Anyone ever thought this was not a design flaw rather a Quality Control issue with the original manufacture?

Think of all the 3rds you see on the road (and there a TON of the them) and ponder how many of them had a pink milkshake. About as worrisome as a cloudy day, especially if you pull over and stop the second you notice something afoot. I've read jerky shifting and overheating. I'm thankful the problem has been well documented here. Just my .2.

 

[kegelinanger]

Let's not forget this is a MASS produced vehicle, and all mass produced vehicles are a balance of design to construction costs. Sure, in most cases the factory cooler is sufficient. After all, most people will see 100k before a milkshake threat. BUT it's also the cheaper way to go from the manufacturing standpoint. Less materials, brackets, bolts, etc. that all have to be designed and installed. Not dogging on Toyota's build quality, I believe they are the best in the business, and I think they did one hell of a job with the 3rd Gen. But they build cars to make money, and these weak links like trans coolers, LBJ's, brakes, etc. might very well have been trade offs for profit.

As with any mod, it's up to us to choose whether the risks outweigh the benefits. Before I bypassed the cooler, I thought long and hard about my individual application: 1.) I rarely tow. 2.) I live in a very mild climate. 3.) I have experienced the pink milkshake (thankfully in a '60 Chevy and not my 'Runner) 4.) I have never known anyone that had a tranny fail due to too low a temp, not to say it's out of the realm of possibility, just have no personal experience with it. 5.) It reminded me too much of the TV/DVD/VCR combo idea. Sure they're simple, compact, and inexpensive. But when one breaks, you're f'ed...

 

[Nelsonmd]

Fact: the air cooled external coolers like what I have seen posted, such as B&M have a thermal efficiency of a 20 degrees drop "at best." If you run two you get 40 degrees in simplistic terms. If you are cool (pun intended) with that as the best you can do no matter what you happen to be doing with your truck and you also don't care if you run your tranny at below freezing temps until friction from sudge like tranny fluid can raise the operating temps up in an hours time(supposition), then I say go for.

WRONG: Thermal efficiency isn't measured in ° drop. This is an irrational argument. And i am not just picking on a technicality, this argument doesn't make any technical sense.

Fact: Aftermarket manufactures state that you should not install their coolers with both ports facing up. The rationale is that freezing conditions will cause the trans fluid it gel or freeze and restrict flow upon start up. The radiator helps raise the tranny fluid up to operating temp in short order. Every mechanical device has an optimal operating temperature range it was designed to function properly. When you broaden that temp range intentionally, you are forcing the machine to work outside its optimal (engineered) range causing premature wear.

Would you hop in you car on cold start up and race around in it? The stupid ones do but we can all agree that's not good practice. proper care would instruct us, give the engine time to warm up and equalize temps through out before hard accerlation, etc. Well, that's what the transmission is doing everytime you drive it. You are making it build its own heat through friction to get up to speed. Then you hope that your little air cooled B&M can keep the temps down. If it does, good for you. If it doesn't, oops. Maybe Silver and tsbt will warranty your transmission for you. Doubtful, they will have trashed their rigs by then and have moved on, disappearing like a fart in the wind.

WRONG: Here's my data: http://bmracing.com/wp-bnmcont/uploads/bm_cooler_techdoc.pdf B&M says up

Hayden doesn't specify: http://www.haydenauto.com/Upload/Ha...tionSheets/P-468-transmission-oil-coolers.pdf

IIRC Hayden makes the TRD tranny cooler for 3rd gens, so for what that's worth...

I have never seen any manufacturer that specifically says to mount them down because of fluid gelling. You gotta cite that.

Fact: if you re-route the trans lines away from the radiator on a new vehicle, you will void your warranty. Admittedly, anything voids your warranty but the fact remains. Good intentions aside.

MOOT: No 3rd gens have warranty's left, and saying it voids the warranty isn't a technically sounds reason to believe something.

Nelsonmd: I'm not just referring to total T4Rs on the street. I'm talking about total global sales of all motor vehicles on the road. Miniscule is probably a better word when we discuss the probability of failure. If your truck has high miles and over 6 years old (arbitray numbers I would use for discussion basis) and you want to push it up and down trails without updating the maintenance, you are unrealistic and bound to have issues.

Globally, across all vehicles, you will see external tranny cooler systems exactly like bypassing with a B&M all over the place. It is a VERY common method of tranny cooling. We are talking about 3rd gen 4runners with a 3.4L V6 and A340 tranny. And yeah, if you don't do maintenance and run it for a long time, then yeah, you will have problems. And maybe we are talking beyond the intended life of the vehicle/radiator, though I would say we aren't, because Toyota prides itself on it's longevity. Just because it is outside of the design life doesn't mean it should mechanically fail like this.

Though to be entirely fair, this raises an important point, if you religiously replace coolant every 30k like you are supposed to, you probably won't have a milkshake problem. I think living in high salt areas contributes too, but poor maintenance is a big contributor to the milkshake. That said, most of us didn't buy these things new, so we can't be sure what the PO's did for maintenance

Ball joints: No the ball joints worked fine through their usable life and people who don't do maintenance found out they can fail. But you would suggest that we do away with ball joints altogether because they could fail. Hmm. So Toyota redesigned the LBJ so the stud points up and the problem has been solved. Buy a better radiator with a differently designed integrated cooler and the problem will be solved. Gee, what a concept. Fix the problem rather than delete it.

They didn't work fine, some broke. Not all of the failures were at 180k miles. Not all of them failed at the wear points either, some straight up broke, not just pulled out. Toyota changed the design because they would a better one. Better meaning, less likely to break (and possibly cheaper).

I wonder how many members here have their original radiator with 200+K miles? Anyone ever thought this was not a design flaw rather a Quality Control issue with the original manufacture?

Think of all the 3rds you see on the road (and there a TON of the them) and ponder how many of them had a pink milkshake. About as worrisome as a cloudy day, especially if you pull over and stop the second you notice something afoot. I've read jerky shifting and overheating. I'm thankful the problem has been well documented here. Just my .2.

Design flaw doesn't necessarily mean terrible design, or high % failures. I am sure it met the life requirement Toyota specified, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a flaw either. Toyota prides themselves on longevity. The standard is high.

 

[quicksilvr]

I would like to point out that I am a "fart in the wind". :guitar3:


(this thread is too far gone to save at this point anyway)




I have a simple question for Drcoffee: What are your transmission temps?

 

[quicksilvr]

Are you even reading the counter argument?



Your "supposition" qualifier is great and all, but it's factually false. Those of us with REAL EXPERIENCE and DATA can easily refute this. Sludge-like tranny fluid? What do you think ATF is, karo syrup?

All of Qyota's post was on point. But this ^ made me lol. I pictured Drcoffee pouring a glass jar of dark karo syrup into his transmission dipstick tube while mumbling about how the stuff just seems too damn thick to work in a transmission...but it's what Toyota calls for. rofl!

 

[the great him]

drcoffee, maybe you need to drink some coffee and wake the F up...


btw drcoffee, my wife thinks your an idiot and so do i. she just read this thread, and could not believe how stupid some of your "arguments"(if you can call them that) are/were... i pitty the fool who buy your 4runner from you.

(and if i get banned for this "personal" attack them so be it, it was worth it)

 

[mforce]

I am new here but this thread has made me laugh while making me think. I have read all over the place that maintenance and where you live plays a big part in this milkshake. But also I see the point of needing a external cooler if your going off road or towing. Why do other manufacturers even Toyota have external coolers on the tow package...? Because the tranny needs them. But if you want piece of mind then do it. I myself...jury still out as I might just do the new rad. or just change fluids and go with it since I am in a warm climate and will be going to Phoenix with mine soon.

 

[pdx650]

I think DrCoffee just wanted to stir the hornets nest for the eff of it to see how bad we would all react. And I think he's a transmission mechanic waiting for your trannys to fail so he can still gain an income.

It's black bart! You'll shoot your eye out kid!

 

[Drcoffee]

Welcome back to the usual cast or characters. I lost track. Is there 5 or 6 of you?

:boink:

 

[tbst]

Damn, figured you'd come back with some data. Oh wait, no I didn't.

 

[Nelsonmd]

Welcome back to the usual cast or characters. I lost track. Is there 5 or 6 of you?

:boink:

I don't understand why you think this is you against a group of ignorant vindictive stalkers. We all post in mostly the same sections, so lots of us will see all your threads. Present your side of the argument, don't state things as fact that you have no data to support, and don't treat us like idiots.

BTW, you aren't the first one to come in here and act like this, the user "mom" was even worse than you, and she ended up getting banned for a while and some of her threads deleted. I really hope you don't follow in her footsteps...

 

[RonMAIDEN]

I'd be more worried about the radiator letting go and at 170k and being on the road for over 13 years I figure mine is just due for a replacement and I'd rather have a newer radiator than a tranny cooler coupled with a dated radiator that might have efficiency issues on the horizon.

 

[the great him]

I don't understand why you think this is you against a group of ignorant vindictive stalkers. We all post in mostly the same sections, so lots of us will see all your threads. Present your side of the argument, don't state things as fact that you have no data to support, and don't treat us like idiots.

BTW, you aren't the first one to come in here and act like this, the user "mom" was even worse than you, and she ended up getting banned for a while and some of her threads deleted. I really hope you don't follow in her footsteps...

i miss mom lol

 

[Drcoffee]

I'd be more worried about the radiator letting go and at 170k and being on the road for over 13 years I figure mine is just due for a replacement and I'd rather have a newer radiator than a tranny cooler coupled with a dated radiator that might have efficiency issues on the horizon.

^ Exactly true.


I don't know your "mom" and I haven't been abussive to anyone here. However on the otherhand, I've been attacked by multiple members. For instance, the stalker tsbt. You're like a psyco girl friend. I'm waiting to find you outside my house one day.

And The Kid, you bring the wife into this. How smart is she? look who she married. LMAO

Look! We've all stated our views and now let the readers decide for themselves. You won't change my mind and I can't change yours.