what an unbelievable difference! - kappa 3.5 dash speakers

[plasticsdoc]

I'm a fan of getting as much bandwidth as you can from the dash speakers and then properly crossing over to a capable midbass in the doors. Thus I opted for a 4" point-source 2-Way (not a coax, but a true "Point Source" 2-way), but it required some mounting fabrication of the factory dash panels. I chose the lovely Morel Hybrid Integra 402.

Hard to beat them in our T4R's dash application for serious "audio dudes" (hate the term "Audiophile" - those guys are a bunch of gullible fools!), but they certainly ain't cheap. I cross them in @ 315Hz, and they handle all of 150WRMS per channel just fine as long as you keep it clean. You can cross them in lower (200Hz) if you are very careful with listening habiots, or if you have a lot less power. I like it clean and loud - so my 315Hz turnover with 150WRMS keeps thermal power handling in check, and still allows a good sounding hand-off to the midbass in the doors IMO.

Sound Quality and imaging is impressive off the windshield IMO (the mid and tweet are naturally time-aligned due to the point-source design, and the modified mount/ring still shields the direct radiated sound from reaching my ears so no comb filtering is observed). Toyota's engineers even designed speaker placement so the Left Dash and Left Door speakers are equidistant and the Right Dash and Right Door speakers are equidistant from the front-seat listening positions (if you include the reflected distance of the dash speakers off the windshield). I was a little shocked (in a pleasant way) when I discovered this while measuring driver distances for DSP time alignment.

Then, you can fit a huge 9" midbass in the door and still hide it behind the factory door panel! I chose the Morel Elate 9" here (only used the 9" woofer from the 2-way system), and I don't regret it. Add some subs, and you are rockin' with the best of them!

The T4R is a very nice platform for serious audio IMO. It's the best audio environment in a vehicle I've had to date (been into high-end car audio since 1991 or so). The Audio system potential of our 5th Gen T4R's is actually what swayed me to buy a '13 T4R over a '12 Tacoma 4-Door (no room in that thing!). I'm so glad I did!

I thought the time alignment was pretty good too but boy was I wrong. Get a signal processor like the Audison Bit one or bit ten and prepare to have your socks blown off.

 

[Randyman...]

I thought the time alignment was pretty good too but boy was I wrong. Get a signal processor like the Audison Bit one or bit ten and prepare to have your socks blown off.

A few steps ahead of you : Alpine PXA-H800 FTW! Integrates directly with the INA-W910 DVD HU, but also added the RUX-C800 for additional DSP control from the front seat (mounted low in the dash below the storage door).

My alignment comment was more about the way the Toyota engineers designed the Dash Speakers and Door Speakers to be equidistant (if you include the additional distance the dash speakers utilize by reflecting off the windshield). Left dash and Left Door are the same distance to my ear, and Right Dash and Right Door are the same distance to my ear (including the reflection off the windshield). My 4" dash pods shield the direct sound from my ears, so I avoid comb-filtering issues (constructive/destructive interference) against the direct-radiated and windshield-reflected sound as much as possible.

The Audison DSP was also on my short list, but the integration of the H800 DSP with the W910 HU was a no-brainer. Had the venerable Sony XDP-4000X and C90 in my '99 Tacoma (likely know all about it if you are an old-school Audio Dude!) - the Alpine's SQ is on par with a butt-load of more features, and it is WAY more flexible.

Hertz speakers were also on my radar, but I'm using Dynaudio AIR monitors at home. The Morel Elate 9"s and Hybrid Integra 402's were more in-line with the Dynaudio's timbre. They handle power for days! The 402'a are actually a "Point Source" speaker like the KEF's and Tannoy's if you are familiar with those.

I believe our audio desires are a bit above the scope of this '3.5" Kappa' thread - but great audio is a true thing of beauty IMO. Some people don't know (or care!) what they are missing (they are the lucky ones IMO - they save $10K on their audio systems w/o any audible disappointments to their consciousness!). I was hating life with my stock radio for 2-3 weeks before I was able to rip it all out and start from scratch...

Back to 3.5" Coax thread

 

[lowcel]

A few steps ahead of you : Alpine PXA-H800 FTW! Integrates directly with the INA-W910 DVD HU, but also added the RUX-C800 for additional DSP control from the front seat (mounted low in the dash below the storage door).

My alignment comment was more about the way the Toyota engineers designed the Dash Speakers and Door Speakers to be equidistant (if you include the additional distance the dash speakers utilize by reflecting off the windshield). Left dash and Left Door are the same distance to my ear, and Right Dash and Right Door are the same distance to my ear (including the reflection off the windshield). My 4" dash pods shield the direct sound from my ears, so I avoid comb-filtering issues (constructive/destructive interference) against the direct-radiated and windshield-reflected sound as much as possible.

The Audison DSP was also on my short list, but the integration of the H800 DSP with the W910 HU was a no-brainer. Had the venerable Sony XDP-4000X and C90 in my '99 Tacoma (likely know all about it if you are an old-school Audio Dude!) - the Alpine's SQ is on par with a butt-load of more features, and it is WAY more flexible.

Hertz speakers were also on my radar, but I'm using Dynaudio AIR monitors at home. The Morel Elate 9"s and Hybrid Integra 402's were more in-line with the Dynaudio's timbre. They handle power for days! The 402'a are actually a "Point Source" speaker like the KEF's and Tannoy's if you are familiar with those.

I believe our audio desires are a bit above the scope of this '3.5" Kappa' thread - but great audio is a true thing of beauty IMO. Some people don't know (or care!) what they are missing (they are the lucky ones IMO - they save $10K on their audio systems w/o any audible disappointments to their conciseness!). I was hating life with my stock radio for 2-3 weeks before I was able to rip it all out and start from scratch...

Back to 3.5" Coax thread

I agree completely. I competed in SQ competitions for years after I grew out of the SPL competitions. It was a lot of fun, not to mention very expensive. If I didn't have other expensive hobbies (such as racing sportbikes) I would be dumping tons of money into the audio system.

 

[jasonv]

I just placed an order for some JBL GTO328's and some GTO638's. I'll let you know how the install goes once I receive them.

thank you

 

[lowcel]

thank you

Well I did the install and they immediately started cracking. I turned the bass down and they were alright. Then, just for the heck of it I checked the ohm load on the factory speakers, they are 4 ohm. No wonder it sounds like it is clipping.

I'll be removing these, selling them on ebay at a pretty decent loss, then ordering some 4 ohm speakers. If anyone needs some 2 ohm for a good price let me know.

This sucks.

 

[Randyman...]

Well I did the install and they immediately started cracking. I turned the bass down and they were alright. Then, just for the heck of it I checked the ohm load on the factory speakers, they are 4 ohm. No wonder it sounds like it is clipping.

I'll be removing these, selling them on ebay at a pretty decent loss, then ordering some 4 ohm speakers. If anyone needs some 2 ohm for a good price let me know.

This sucks.

Edit - Just saw your 2 Ohm comment. I don't believe the impedance alone is your issue - but might be a contributing factor.

You'll need to use a non-polar capacitor to act as a 6dB/Octave high-pass on these small speakers, or run them on their own amp channels with an active crossover (far superior!). 3.5" speakers won't be able to handle ANY low-bass at all, and need to be filtered (crossed-over) accordingly to prevent mechanical limitations even at low volumes.

I'd probably start with a 400MFD 50V Non-Polar/Bi-Polar capacitor and see if that does the trick (approx 200Hz rolloff @ 6dB/octave @ 2 Ohms). If it is still 'farting' at higher volumes, go with a lower value capacitor (will raise the cutoff accordingly)...

Hers is a neat little chart that allows you to calculate basic crossover components for frequency @ load (and desired order of rolloff, 1st order or 6dB/Octave being the easiest to deal with):

http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/crosscalc.asp#ccc

 

[lowcel]

Edit - Just saw your 2 Ohm comment. I don't believe the impedance alone is your issue - but might be a contributing factor.

You'll need to use a non-polar capacitor to act as a 6dB/Octave high-pass on these small speakers, or run them on their own amp channels with an active crossover (far superior!). 3.5" speakers won't be able to handle ANY low-bass at all, and need to be filtered (crossed-over) accordingly to prevent mechanical limitations even at low volumes.

I'd probably start with a 400MFD 50V Non-Polar/Bi-Polar capacitor and see if that does the trick (approx 200Hz rolloff @ 6dB/octave @ 2 Ohms). If it is still 'farting' at higher volumes, go with a lower value capacitor (will raise the cutoff accordingly)...

Hers is a neat little chart that allows you to calculate basic crossover components for frequency @ load (and desired order of rolloff, 1st order or 6dB/Octave being the easiest to deal with):

http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/crosscalc.asp#ccc

I appreciate it but it is doing it at low volumes as well. I'm thinking the head unit can't handle the low impedance load. Depending how these are run the head unit could be seeing as low as one ohm with the 3-1/2 and the 6-1/2.

I'm going to do some thinking but I am leaning towards going with some 6-1/2 components. I may go with a Soundstream Nano amp.

*edit- another problem is where these are getting double the power I can't even turn it up to the point of getting bass from the rear speakers.

 

[Randyman...]

3.5" speakers aren't going to be able to handle ANY kind of low bass - even at very low volumes (well, a few might, but not at any descent volume). Do you have any crossover (capacitor) on them now? Driver Excursion quadruples with every halving of frequency - and a 3.5" driver really doesn't have much Xmax to begin with.

Even paralleled with another 4 Ohm driver, you are realistically only ending up with a low impedance result above the 200 Hz crossover (once you add the capacitor), and their nominal impedance is likely much higher than 2 Ohms in reality above 200Hz... Difference is only 0.66 Ohms anyways (from 2 Ohms with two 4 Ohms in parallel to 1.33 Ohms with a 2 Ohm and a 4 Ohm paralleled).

Technically speaking: "Double the Power" is only 3dB in volume - barely even audible! The issue currently is over-excursion from too much bass. The low frequencies need to be significantly attenuated (crossed over) for a 3.5" speaker to have any chance of playing loud.

If you will take a huge loss, I'd at least try the capacitor (probably $2-$5/ea) before you write it off as a complete loss. "Proper" 4 Ohm speakers might make a difference, might not - but either way you will need to attenuate the bass sent to ANY 3.5" driver that is expected to play loudly...

 

[lowcel]

The 6 1/2 I installed is also 2 ohm and it is popping as well.

 

[Randyman...]

The 6 1/2 I installed is also 2 ohm and it is popping as well.

Odd - Mechanical popping originating from the speaker itself, or possibly 'amplifier can't cope' electrical popping?

If mechanical popping, sounds like some POS speakers (can't speak for JBL's cheap stuff, but their top-end Car Audio gear is second to none - I run the JBL W12GTi's in my truck and not much can beat them for any price).

 

[lowcel]

Odd - Mechanical popping originating from the speaker itself, or possibly 'amplifier can't cope' electrical popping?

If mechanical popping, sounds like some POS speakers (can't speak for JBL's cheap stuff, but their top-end Car Audio gear is second to none - I run the JBL W12GTi's in my truck and not much can beat them for any price).

I'm guessing the head unit just can't handle it. No big deal though, components will sound better anyway.

Completely off topic but I sooo miss the Image Dynamic horns I used to run. The sound quality was amazing. The sound stage, oh my god it was awesome.

 

[Randyman...]

BTW - You realize you are SEVERELY lessening your speaker surface area (and generally lowering max possible SPL and low frequency extension) by swapping a larger 6x9 to a smaller 6.5" speaker, correct? Expect less bass even though the speakers are "Better" than stock (the Stocker's are Neodymium drivers - was kind of impressed with that aspect of them! but not much else)

You can actually fit up to a 9" woofer behind the factory door panels - but that is a bit extreme (and right up my alley!). Then do a true Mid/High with active crossover in the dash - heaven.

Horns are nice (not gonna chop up my interior), but I'm seriously digging the 4" Morels in the dash locations! No joke...

 

[lowcel]

BTW - You realize you are SEVERELY lessening your speaker surface area (and generally lowering max possible SPL and low frequency extension) by swapping a larger 6x9 to a smaller 6.5" speaker, correct? Expect less bass even though the speakers are "Better" than stock (the Stocker's are Neodymium drivers - was kind of impressed with that aspect of them! but not much else)



You can actually fit up to a 9" woofer behind the factory door panels - but that is a bit extreme (and right up my alley!).

I realize that but I have never been a fan of oval speakers. A pair of components and a single 12 will be much better.

I'm hanging out at the casino, maybe I'll get lucky enough to win enough to upgrade everything.

 

[Randyman...]

I realize that but I have never been a fan of oval speakers. A pair of components and a single 12 will be much better.

I'm hanging out at the casino, maybe I'll get lucky enough to win enough to upgrade everything.

If you add the 12" - maybe. The hate on 6x9's are actually unfounded. The benefits of more surface area and more output are definite benefits (looking at like 42 sq in vs 28 sq in of area!).

CDT makes some pretty serious 6x9"s, or like me you can fit a 9" woofer (or 8") in there, and do a true Mid/High in the dash to really knock your socks off...

Don't underestimate the importance of strong and clean midbass in your front stage. 6.5's have never exhibited good midbass up to a sub crossover (80Hz or so) in any of my systems. Closest I ever got was running my sub @ 100Hz without a huge hole in the midbass - but prefer to run my subs much lower. 9"s in the doors allows a nice 60Hz crossover with no holes in the midbass response

You can obviously take Audio as far as your wallet allows Lottery or winning big in Veas wold be nice indeed!!!

 

[lowcel]

If you add the 12" - maybe. The hate on 6x9's are actually unfounded. The benefits of more surface area and more output are definite benefits (looking at like 42 sq in vs 28 sq in of area!).

CDT makes some pretty serious 6x9"s, or like me you can fit a 9" woofer (or 8") in there, and do a true Mid/High in the dash to really knock your socks off...

Don't underestimate the importance of strong and clean midbass in your front stage. 6.5's have never exhibited good midbass up to a sub crossover (80Hz or so) in any of my systems. Closest I ever got was running my sub @ 100Hz without a huge hole in the midbass - but prefer to run my subs much lower. 9"s in the doors allows a nice 60Hz crossover with no holes in the midbass response

You can obviously take Audio as far as your wallet allows Lottery or winning big in Veas wold be nice indeed!!!

Believe me I know about the wallet thing. I had over $10k in my SQ+ car back in 2000 that was quite a bit of cash back then. Damn it sounded good though.

I ended up working in a shop for a while. It was a lot of fun. Unfortunately I needed a career once I got married.

 

[Randyman...]

Believe me I know about the wallet thing. I had over $10k in my SQ+ car back in 2000 that was quite a bit of cash back then. Damn it sounded good though.

I ended up working in a shop for a while. It was a lot of fun. Unfortunately I needed a career once I got married.

Lots in common! I'm right around that figure in the T4R Worked at a car stereo shop in the early 90's and had some training from Rockford Fosgate back in the day.

And the Good times carry on! Moved on to Audio Engineering in the late 90's and went even further down the audio rabbit hole. Obsessed with audio in any shape or form to say the least...

Cheers!!! :cheers:

 

[lowcel]

Lots in common! I'm right around that figure in the T4R Worked at a car stereo shop in the early 90's and had some training from Rockford Fosgate back in the day.

And the Good times carry on! Moved on to Audio Engineering in the late 90's and went even further down the audio rabbit hole. Obsessed with audio in any shape or form to say the least...

Cheers!!! :cheers:

Very nice. I'm stuck in cubicle hell these days.

 

[jasonv]

thanks to you guys for doing the legwork/experimenting

 

[vlad drac]

So these Infinity Kappas are no longer available. Has anyone installed an alternative? I'm seeing -

Polk DB 351's- Amazon.com : Polk Audio DB351 3.5-Inch Coaxial Speakers (Pair, Black) : Vehicle Speakers : Car Electronics

JL Audio TR350-CXi - Amazon.com : JL Audio TR350-CXi 3-1/2 : Component Vehicle Speakers : Car Electronics

May try the JL out and see how it goes.

 

[4runbon]

So these Infinity Kappas are no longer available. Has anyone installed an alternative? I'm seeing -

Polk DB 351's- Amazon.com : Polk Audio DB351 3.5-Inch Coaxial Speakers (Pair, Black) : Vehicle Speakers : Car Electronics

JL Audio TR350-CXi - Amazon.com : JL Audio TR350-CXi 3-1/2 : Component Vehicle Speakers : Car Electronics

May try the JL out and see how it goes.

I just went with MTX Thunder35's on my new TRD Pro. A bit of a hassle to fit, but they sound great. I took the capacitor off the original speaker's blue socket and used that socket. These sound better without the capacitor (I also tried leaving the capacitor but they prevent any low tones from coming out, so you only get high and mid tones.

I chose the MTX for their sensitivity rating (92db). I'm driving them with the stock unit, and didn't want to fall short on power. Didn't want to go with lower impedance either because I read some people were hearing popping from 2ohm options. Either way, I'm not an audio expert, just happy I apparently chose a good option (out of the very limited 3.5" options).

The front door speakers are now suddenly sounding deeper too, a lot of bass from those. I'll be leaving the front doors as is; doing the tailgate and rear doors next - hoping I can do those without needing an amp.