what has more front wheel articulation...
- Thread starter Maverick
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In the Toyota spec sheet for the TRD Pro it says:
"The new shocks have also been engineered with a longer-stroke, to give an additional 1-inch of extended, or “down”, wheel travel for enhanced articulation capabilities when off-roading."
what limits the down wheel travel on the TRD Pro? what limits the down wheel travel on the TEP with KDSS?
"The new shocks have also been engineered with a longer-stroke, to give an additional 1-inch of extended, or “down”, wheel travel for enhanced articulation capabilities when off-roading."
what limits the down wheel travel on the TRD Pro? what limits the down wheel travel on the TEP with KDSS?
Jeremy556
New member
Interesting, as every aftermarket shock company says the OEM upper control arm ball joint is the limit of travel, and require an aftermarket UCA.
Intruder
New member
Control arms in both cases. Just take a look at the components that get replaced in a long travel setup like the Total Chaos one.
Interesting! I plan to stay fairly stock while under warranty and just explore some remote offroad terrain...it's hard to predict what it will be exactly. After the initial 3 years I may go more extreme if desired. Searching past posts on similar topics it seems opinions are varied. When I read the TRD Pro literature it didn't jive with what some folks say. I'm just weighing all the options for vehicles and future mods....trying to understand this stuff a bit more.
wfo9
New member
Not an expert on this, but I'm guessing there is still a bit (how much I don't know) of available down travel in the stock IFS control arms. I assume the stock shocks are actually what limits down travel, but there is only a small amount more you can go. Aftermarket UCAs angle the joint even more to again get a little more with extended travel coil overs. To get a bunch more "everything" needs to be longer and the fenders need to to be chopped.....
As far as the TRD marketing goes. They could just be talking about the rear. Just shocks and springs will get you more down travel there.
Also, the sway bar does limit real world travel by linking both sides together.
As far as the TRD marketing goes. They could just be talking about the rear. Just shocks and springs will get you more down travel there.
Also, the sway bar does limit real world travel by linking both sides together.
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Jeremy556
New member
The Bilstein coilovers very well may be capable of an extra inch of down travel (which is what The Toyota blurb says), however the stock UCAs probably are not. Our front suspension has not changed in more than a decade.
I'm also not an expert on this, but I think you may be correct. I'm guessing there are no other coilovers that have been designed to increase ride height 1", increase droop 1" and utilize the stock UCA. The UCA are likely the limit when going for even more travel. The TRD engineers are saying rear droop is also increased by 1". So, if this is indeed true, then is it accurate to say a TRD Pro has greater front wheel articulation compared to a TEP with KDSS?
I copied and pasted the relevant info below:
Front suspension details: TRD-tuned 2.5-inch Bilstein® 5100-series independent coil-over-shock type suspension, TRD-tuned Eibach® springs, and factory stabilizer bar, end links and bump stops.
TRD-tuned Eibach® springs with decreased spring rates (softer-than-stock) improve ride quality over harsh terrain and gives a 1-inch higher ride height, for a level front to back appearance that gives better front ground clearance when out on the trail off-highway.
Larger 2.5-inch shocks (similar in size to those used on heavy-duty industrial vehicles) with digressive valving are matched to the softer spring rate for enhanced overall characteristics operating off-highway in the dirt. Larger, more rigid 18mm shock shafts add component strength (original equipment shafts are 12mm).
The new shocks have also been engineered with a longer-stroke, to give an additional 1-inch of extended, or “down”, wheel travel for enhanced articulation capabilities when off-roading.
The larger 2.5-inch shocks houses a greater oil capacity than stock equipment; the increased amount of oil means the shocks can better dissipate heat and avoid
cavitation created from working the shocks hard off-
road. This results in a predictable suspension that consistently works over longer periods of time in some of the most extreme situations and environments.
Rear suspension detals: TRD-tuned 2.0-inch Bilstein® 5100-series shocks with remote reservoirs, and factory rear coil springs, stabilizer bar, end links, and bump stops.
The enhanced rear suspension features larger-than-stock 2.0-inch shocks with remote-mounted external reservoirs that also house a greater-than-stock shock oil capacity, equivalent to that of a larger 2.5-inch shock, but inside of a more compact package. The increased amount of oil means that the shocks can better dissipate heat to help avoid cavitation created from working the shocks hard off-road. This results in consistent, predictable suspension operation that keeps on working as designed in the most extreme situations and environments.
The upgraded Bilstein® rear shocks use larger 46 mm pistons with more valving surface area, an improvement over the 32 mm original equipment pistons.
The shocks have also been engineered to provide an additional 1-inch of extended or “down” wheel travel for enhanced articulation capabilities when off-roading.
wfo9
New member
I think the term articulation is a bit ambiguous here. Maybe it means the same thing to everyone, but I think of it as being very different than wheel travel. The term technically only applies to solid axle suspensions, describing the lateral movement of the axle, but the concept can still be applied to IFS/IRS.
To me, when I hear articulation I think of moving slow on uneven terrain. Rock crawling.... The concept can be measured with an RTI sore.
Ramp travel index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stock trail with KDSS has an RTI scrore of ~323
I'm guessing the trd pro would have a lower score. Not that the score is everything.
The TRD pro still may have more travel, which will come in handy at speed.
To me, when I hear articulation I think of moving slow on uneven terrain. Rock crawling.... The concept can be measured with an RTI sore.
Ramp travel index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Stock trail with KDSS has an RTI scrore of ~323
I'm guessing the trd pro would have a lower score. Not that the score is everything.
The TRD pro still may have more travel, which will come in handy at speed.
3wbdriver
New member
[MENTION=66300]Intruder[/MENTION], I'm not trying to put you on the spot but I seem to recall you saying you have completely removed your sway bars. What was your reasoning for doing this? My definition of articulation is total wheel travel in relation to the opposing 3 corners (or wfo9's RTI index). I know from what little off roading I have done this year that my front wheels tend to fight each other because of the sway bar up there, so the front end tends to roll with or "follow" the terrain more than the rear with its lighter sway bar which allows for more flex.
I understand the geometry of the IFS components (UCA, LCA, CV angles, etc) tend to restrict the total overall travel of the front end in relation to the rear straight axle. But I also tend to believe that front sway bar adds to the equation preventing front flex. The KDSS is supposed to alleviate this to a degree by disconnecting the sway bars ability to level the vehicle in rolling terrain, allowing for more independent wheel travel.
In other words I feel like if I disconnected my sway bars I might get an additional 1 or 2" of independent travel at each corner in that rolling terrain. But the 4R would sway like a drunken pig in corners in regular street use. I thought this was the entire point behind creating the KDSS system. I know I have been impressed as hell following what seem to be KDSS equipped 4R's through high speed curves on the highway with literally zero body roll.
At least this is my understanding of the system. But I'm no engineer, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :ranger:
I understand the geometry of the IFS components (UCA, LCA, CV angles, etc) tend to restrict the total overall travel of the front end in relation to the rear straight axle. But I also tend to believe that front sway bar adds to the equation preventing front flex. The KDSS is supposed to alleviate this to a degree by disconnecting the sway bars ability to level the vehicle in rolling terrain, allowing for more independent wheel travel.
In other words I feel like if I disconnected my sway bars I might get an additional 1 or 2" of independent travel at each corner in that rolling terrain. But the 4R would sway like a drunken pig in corners in regular street use. I thought this was the entire point behind creating the KDSS system. I know I have been impressed as hell following what seem to be KDSS equipped 4R's through high speed curves on the highway with literally zero body roll.
At least this is my understanding of the system. But I'm no engineer, and I didn't sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night. :ranger:
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Intruder
New member
Not me. I think you might have me confused with [MENTION=77684]WarnerD9[/MENTION], which is easy to do since we both have silver TEs that we sometimes do slightly crazy things with.
Remember, KDSS does not actually disconnect the sway bars. It's more that in some situations it slacks them to allow for easier wheel travel. Here's the best explanation of how the system works:
I know people who've disconnected their sway bars and it isn't too bad as long as you have good shocks to compensate. You do have to adjust your driving just like you would going from a sports car to a CUV to a truck. KDSS also allows for a beefier sway bar. The TE has a larger diameter sway bar than the SR5 and Limited, though I can't remember by how much. I know someone posted measurements in one of the other KDSS threads.
bimrunner
New member
I have both sway bars removed and love the way it drives. I'm running 700lb springs up front and HD LT metal tech springs in the rear. Way more travel for both front and rears. You do have to be careful on the fronts. I've still bottomed it out. However, the lean isn't too bad but it doesn't corner flat! I run extended travel fronts and LT in the rear. I'm guessing I get 2" more down travel with bigger TC UCA.
