What’s your hot take on 4Runners? I’ll go first:

[Jetboy]

My statement regarding stop/start and hybrid was intended for automatic only. I've driven a friend's manual w/ stop/start using clutch pedal position and I agree it was perfectly fine. Pay attention at the light and you'll have no issue getting the engine ready to go and shifted into 1st before you need to move.

Also, I was wrong about the type of hybrid system i was trying to state. A mild hybrid can't run electric only or engine only, they always work in parallel.

I should have said: All automatic/clutch pedal-less transmission vehicles with stop/start should either be a full hybrid (FHEV) or a plug-in (PHEV). This enables good pedal response at a stop by applying electric power to the wheels in the short interim while the engine starts and begins to apply power.

100% agree with everything else.

I think we both generally are looking for the same thing - easy, reliable, and predictable operation. We don't care if the engine turns off sometimes. But it can't be intrusive and obnoxious.

The Tundra can run on EV only up to IIRC 20mph, but it's only got 40hp so there wouldn't be any lag in starting moving, but there would be at least some lag in power delivery by the time it starts and then the turbos spool up.

I'd be okay with the tundra system if the accessories were all electric. But they're not. So you're going to be hot (or cold) at the stoplights. Like the old Honda Insight.

The non-hybrid tundra I drove did not start/stop at all during my test drive. From what I've read it only turns the engine off under certain conditions that are pretty rare. Supposedly it will not turn off if the AC is running or the battery is charging or the engine isn't up to full temp or if you have a trailer attached. Some say it won't turn of at lights unless you give extra brake pressure once stopped, otherwise it keeps running. There might be other things that prevent it as well. The reviews I've read are mostly that it only turns off when they put it in park, but otherwise basically never actually turns off in normal use and many people didn't know it was a start stop engine setup. So maybe it's the absolute minimum to get the EPA mpg bonus points?

 

[Jetboy]

Interested to see what the long term effects will be on engine wear and starter failure from the constant start/stop.

Are starters now considered "wearable parts" like brake pads and tires?

What will the ramifications of continued start ups be on engine wear due to lack of lubrication? The worst time for an engine is at start up.

Starters should last a long time. They're designed in start stop models for this type of repeated use.

Prius engines and other similar start/stop engines have no measurable wear from the repeated starting. The first cold start I think has some additional wear. But the restarts after running probably have no measurable difference. The bearings are all going to have residual films of oil in them and the system starts under no load. I don't think the injectors fire or the ignition sparks start until the engine spins a few hundred RPMs. So it spins the engine first with no load and then adds fuel and spark. I wouldn't worry much about it.


BUT - the V35A tundra does warn you to turn off the start/stop function after heavy use where the turbo would be hot. So it's more the stopping while hot that may cause damage according to the manual. IMO this is a pretty craptastic design to require the user to turn off a default setting during normal driving operation to not damage the turbos. I suspect that the EPA requires the start stop to be automatically on and not allowed to have a way to turn it off permanently.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

Starters should last a long time. They're designed in start stop models for this type of repeated use.

Prius engines and other similar start/stop engines have no measurable wear from the repeated starting. The first cold start I think has some additional wear. But the restarts after running probably have no measurable difference. The bearings are all going to have residual films of oil in them and the system starts under no load. I don't think the injectors fire or the ignition sparks start until the engine spins a few hundred RPMs. So it spins the engine first with no load and then adds fuel and spark. I wouldn't worry much about it.


BUT - the V35A tundra does warn you to turn off the start/stop function after heavy use where the turbo would be hot. So it's more the stopping while hot that may cause damage according to the manual. IMO this is a pretty craptastic design to require the user to turn off a default setting during normal driving operation to not damage the turbos. I suspect that the EPA requires the start stop to be automatically on and not allowed to have a way to turn it off permanently.

Prius engines are essentially bump started by the traction motor. There is no conventional starter. This is fine. There is no wear.

Other manufacturers have crude implementations with auto start/stop with a traditional “ch-ch-ch-vroom” start sequence. This is what is horrible and needs to be outlawed. The starters on these bear the same part numbers as ICE vehicles without ASS (aptly named?)


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[Jetboy]

Prius engines are essentially bump started by the traction motor. There is no conventional starter. This is fine. There is no wear.

Other manufacturers have crude implementations with auto start/stop with a traditional “ch-ch-ch-vroom” start sequence. This is what is horrible and needs to be outlawed. The starters on these bear the same part numbers as ICE vehicles without ASS (aptly named?)


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The auto start stop engines supposedly use a different starter even though it often looks basically the same. According to an automotive engineer:

(1) The gear ratio from the starter-drive pinion to the flywheel ring gear is optimized to make the starter's motor turn more slowly. This can be done without materially changing the design of the transmission or flywheel at all on existing designs.

Crucially, this reduces starter-motor speed (in RPM), since 90 percent of starter-motor brush wear occurs not during cranking, but during the coast-down after the start has finished. If a higher-torque motor can spin more slowly, its coast-down time is shorter, increasing its longevity.

(2) The composition of the carbon and copper brushes on a start-stop motor differs from its traditional counterparts to increase longevity without accelerating the wear on the commutator.

(3) Rather than rely on oil-impregnated bushings for the rotating assemblies, start-stop starters mostly use needle bearings.

(4) The solenoid on start-stop starters decouples the mechanical action of engaging the drive pinion into the flywheel from the electrical action of stopping and starting the motor.

This allows for a dedicated design to turn power on and off to the motor, optimizing contact design and wear, against contacts that have to be integrated as part of a spring-loaded plunger.

This also reduces the electrical load requires to turn the engine, so that there is enough current available for accessories/lighting to operate during the start event.

(5) Finally, start-stop motors are integrated with other technologies that identify when each cylinder of the engine will reach top-dead center.

That lets the fuel injectors pulse and fire during the middle of a complete rotation of the crank, against having to wait for a complete revolution that lets the first cylinder reach that position to start the fuel-spark timing sequence.

I think that generally makes sense. I've yet to hear of a start motor failure on a start/stop engine from anyone I know. It probably happens. But it's something I've yet to ever hear of a problem with in real life.

 

[Bmnorm2]

Starters should last a long time. They're designed in start stop models for this type of repeated use.

Prius engines and other similar start/stop engines have no measurable wear from the repeated starting. The first cold start I think has some additional wear. But the restarts after running probably have no measurable difference. The bearings are all going to have residual films of oil in them and the system starts under no load. I don't think the injectors fire or the ignition sparks start until the engine spins a few hundred RPMs. So it spins the engine first with no load and then adds fuel and spark. I wouldn't worry much about it.


BUT - the V35A tundra does warn you to turn off the start/stop function after heavy use where the turbo would be hot. So it's more the stopping while hot that may cause damage according to the manual. IMO this is a pretty craptastic design to require the user to turn off a default setting during normal driving operation to not damage the turbos. I suspect that the EPA requires the start stop to be automatically on and not allowed to have a way to turn it off permanently.

This was one of our main concerns when i worked at Cummins designing turbochargers. To your point about all auxiliary systems being electric, when needed you could continue to pump coolant and oil to the turbo at stops.

 

[Jetboy]

This was one of our main concerns when i worked at Cummins designing turbochargers. To your point about all auxiliary systems being electric, when needed you could continue to pump coolant and oil to the turbo at stops.

New tundra turbos do have electric cooling pump for the turbos. But I don't know about oil pump. Seems like Toyota should have a simple temp sensor in the turbo coolant that disables start/stop function when the turbos are hot or even just an algorithm based on how hard it was driven in the previous 10 minutes? If the truck will disable it when the AC is on, why couldn't it disable it for the turbos to cool down? This doesn't seem like a heavy lift for the engineers who designed the system to add in. I think it must be EPA related.

EPA: You have to build turbo engines to meet our rules.

Also EPA: You must have a start stop design that is really bad for turbo engines.

 

[fkheath]

Also, I was wrong about the type of hybrid system i was trying to state. A mild hybrid can't run electric only or engine only, they always work in parallel.

What is your definition of a "mild hybrid" system?

For the Toyota RAV4 hybrid, they make two levels, the normal hybrid, which I have, and the plug in hybrid "Prime". The Prime has a bigger battery pack and larger electric motors, but both can run in either full electric mode, or gas only mode depending on conditions. (There is a select-able graphic on the dash that shows the power flow from each motor/engine to the wheels or to the battery when regenerating electricity.)

I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that all Toyota hybrids from the earliest Prius worked that way, thus Toyota has never made a "mild hybrid" by your definition of having both motive sources having to work simultaneously.

 

[baldrik78]

I for one hope that electric swaps become to the new LS swap in the next 5-10 years. I watched JerryRigEverything do one in his Hummer and it definitely seems doable, just not exactly end-user/at-home consumer friendly at the moment. It won't even have to be a huge motor to be an improvement over the 1GR-FE in terms of power and torque. And I think there is a ton of room under the truck for battery banks once you pull the exhaust and gas tank.

I mean, who needs start-stop nonsense when your pure electric?

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

What is your definition of a "mild hybrid" system?

For the Toyota RAV4 hybrid, they make two levels, the normal hybrid, which I have, and the plug in hybrid "Prime". The Prime has a bigger battery pack and larger electric motors, but both can run in either full electric mode, or gas only mode depending on conditions. (There is a select-able graphic on the dash that shows the power flow from each motor/engine to the wheels or to the battery when regenerating electricity.)

I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that all Toyota hybrids from the earliest Prius worked that way, thus Toyota has never made a "mild hybrid" by your definition of having both motive sources having to work simultaneously.

“Mild hybrid” is a conventional ICE with a 48V battery to cover accessories when engine is stopped via auto start/stop. That’s it. The BARE minimum to be able to bear the logo for PZEV. It produces NO electric power to the wheels. (The only time it’s “zero emissions” is at stop lights)

A Prius is a parallel hybrid in that it uses a power sharing transmission. Any combination of traction battery power and direct engine power is possible.

An EARLY first gen Chevy Volt applies only electric power to the wheels (required for the engine to be considered a range extender and pass emissions inspections when the ICE is at 0 RPM) but it always had the ABILITY.

This purportedly changed mid generation 2013 which had EV hold or “charge sustaining mode” during which the 4ET50 hybrid transaxle had a clutch configuration enabled that DID allow direct engine power to the wheels.

There is an auto blog article dated 2010 that mentions a “charge sustaining mode” (only the 2011 model year was out) but EV hold didn’t make an appearance in these vehicles until MY 2013.

GM: Yes, the Volt's gas engine can power the wheels


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[Bmnorm2]

What is your definition of a "mild hybrid" system?

For the Toyota RAV4 hybrid, they make two levels, the normal hybrid, which I have, and the plug in hybrid "Prime". The Prime has a bigger battery pack and larger electric motors, but both can run in either full electric mode, or gas only mode depending on conditions. (There is a select-able graphic on the dash that shows the power flow from each motor/engine to the wheels or to the battery when regenerating electricity.)

I could be wrong, but it was my understanding that all Toyota hybrids from the earliest Prius worked that way, thus Toyota has never made a "mild hybrid" by your definition of having both motive sources having to work simultaneously.

Not "my" definition, the universally accepted definition.

AFAIK, you are correct that Toyota has never offered a MHEV in the US. The original Prius is a parallel hybrid which is a FHEV

Hybrid Vehicles - a simple guide - AA Thornton
Understanding Hybrid Vehicles: The 4 Main Types | Motorlease Fleet Management & Leasing Solutions
What's the difference between mild and full Hybrids?.

The Rav4 Hybrid is a "Full Hybrid" (FHEV), the Rav4 Prime is a "Plug-in Hybrid" (PHEV).

Really the 4 types of hybrid can be broken down further in engineering terms depending on the configuration.

 

[Charles Bronson]

Are there any "start/stop" vehicles where you can permanently disable it, ie doesn't reset after shutting the vehicle down? My wife's last two vehicles have had it, and neither could be permanently disabled.

Yes. My 2016 BMW M235 6MT has a button to turn off start/stop. The day I bought the car, I hit the button and never touched it again. That was over 6 years ago. I can also turn off ALL nannies with the press of a button. BMW gets it. They also trust their owner drivers with making decisions. Toyota? Not so much. Even when you fully turn off stability control and such, there is still some level of involvement.

 

[Charles Bronson]

This! I loved having the half-push 3 flash turn signal on previous vehicles. The lack of locking gas cap is really odd to me.

Agreed. Same with auto on headlights and auto climate control. Nearly all of this stuff is STANDARD FREAKING EQUIPMENT on most every other Toyota, but the 4Runner.

This truck is an 8 speed auto, direct injection, 3 flash turn signal, auto on headlights, and auto climate control away from perfection. All of these parts have been readily available in the Toyota parts bin prior to 2010. The 8 speed auto and direct injection would yield a solid 15-20% improvement in MPGs and make the truck a bit quicker in all situations plus offer better towing and off-roading capability.

 

[RunTheJoules]

this vehicle is a 3 flash turn signal and locking gas cap away from being perfect

But the 3 flash turn signal sucks balls. :shrug:

 

[BadTrainDriver]

Yes. My 2016 BMW M235 6MT has a button to turn off start/stop. The day I bought the car, I hit the button and never touched it again. That was over 6 years ago. I can also turn off ALL nannies with the press of a button. BMW gets it. They also trust their owner drivers with making decisions. Toyota? Not so much. Even when you fully turn off stability control and such, there is still some level of involvement.

Good on BMW for that. I'd not have know that, as I would never personally own a BMW. Meaning no offense towards you.

 

[honda250xtitan]

Are there any "start/stop" vehicles where you can permanently disable it, ie doesn't reset after shutting the vehicle down? My wife's last two vehicles have had it, and neither could be permanently disabled.

fords you can unhook the wire on the positive terminal of the battery that controls the module and it disables it.

 

[usdmej]

But the 3 flash turn signal sucks balls. :shrug:

notification of a turn that is adequate enough in duration to inform other drivers and it also self cancels. you're literally removing multiple steps from performing a lane change safely.


it's a no brainer imo

 

[Humble Leader]

I wish the 5th gens had the v8 option still. I can live with all the minor other inconveniences but that's the one thing I really wish they kept

 

[RAVL 2016]

Agreed. Same with auto on headlights and auto climate control. Nearly all of this stuff is STANDARD FREAKING EQUIPMENT on most every other Toyota, but the 4Runner.

This truck is an 8 speed auto, direct injection, 3 flash turn signal, auto on headlights, and auto climate control away from perfection. All of these parts have been readily available in the Toyota parts bin prior to 2010. The 8 speed auto and direct injection would yield a solid 15-20% improvement in MPGs and make the truck a bit quicker in all situations plus offer better towing and off-roading capability.

It seems like you come here to bash Toyota and praise BMW. I like BMWs too, I have owned a number and even raced them. I've still got one to scratch that itch when it arises. But durability and build quality wise, candidly there is almost no BMW perhaps other than an older E30 or E28 that can hold a candle to the long term durability of a 4Runner. And if you think otherwise you are simply not living in the world of reality.

BTW, normal people don't refer to the transmission designation of their car in the description. First, if it is an M235, you'd have to be a real tool to have an automatic (or whatever they call automatics today) unless it was not offered in manual, and second, no one on a 4Runner forum cares anyway about the transmission in your BMW. When you describe it that way, you come off as a tool. Not trying to argue, just offering some constructive advice on how not to appear like a tool.

 

[SurfToy]

this vehicle is a 3 flash turn signal and locking gas cap away from being perfect

And auto-folding mirrors...

 

[RunTheJoules]

notification of a turn that is adequate enough in duration to inform other drivers and it also self cancels. you're literally removing multiple steps from performing a lane change safely.


it's a no brainer imo

Removing that one extra step of having to flick it back off? Whoa, what a safety hazard! Lmao

It isn't adequate enough for even a lane change, that's part of the problem. You're supposed to signal BEFORE you start moving over, not during or after(FYI).