What’s your hot take on 4Runners? I’ll go first:

[Charles Bronson]

It seems like you come here to bash Toyota and praise BMW. I like BMWs too, I have owned a number and even raced them. I've still got one to scratch that itch when it arises. But durability and build quality wise, candidly there is almost no BMW perhaps other than an older E30 or E28 that can hold a candle to the long term durability of a 4Runner. And if you think otherwise you are simply not living in the world of reality.

BTW, normal people don't refer to the transmission designation of their car in the description. First, if it is an M235, you'd have to be a real tool to have an automatic (or whatever they call automatics today) unless it was not offered in manual, and second, no one on a 4Runner forum cares anyway about the transmission in your BMW. When you describe it that way, you come off as a tool. Not trying to argue, just offering some constructive advice on how not to appear like a tool.

Hmmmm....this response comes across rather "toolish" :biggrin1:

You clearly have me all wrong and are only reading what you want to see. I am not brand loyal or blind. The reason I brought up "6MT" is that this technology is even applied to some manuals which is quite rare given the operation of a manual.

I wouldn't touch most BMWs with a 10 foot pole for a number of obvious reasons. I ordered the M235 new and have owned it over 6 years and 60K miles. It's never been in for warranty work. Nothing has broken on it, not a rattle in it, nothing is degrading. It's pushing over 100hp and tq more than stock and has done that for the last 4 years or so and I beat the hell out of it. It's the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned including my wife's 2020 4Runner which has had quite a lot of warranty work done to it including being out of service for nearly 3 weeks addressing ABS faults. Both of these facts are shocking to me.

I fully expect something pricey to break on the BMW within the next year. I'm not ignorant to the reality of owning a BMW over the long term. I also now know how freaking great they are to drive. Quite the conundrum. Luckily, I'm a DIYer and love working on and modifying cars and trucks including teaching my wife how to work on and modify her 4Runner which we both deeply love.

 

[Charles Bronson]

Removing that one extra step of having to flick it back off? Whoa, what a safety hazard! Lmao

It isn't adequate enough for even a lane change, that's part of the problem. You're supposed to signal BEFORE you start moving over, not during or after(FYI).

You clearly have never owned a vehicle with this feature. It's freaking great. In most driving situations, three flashes is MORE than enough time to signal your intentions and execute the lane change.

If this was such a bogus feature, nearly every car on the market wouldn't have it. I rent tons of cars for work and I can't remember the last time I rented a car that didn't have the feature. Even the Corolla has it as well as auto on head lights. A $55K 4Runner Pro? Nope!

Luckily the next gen 4Runner will have all of this as standard equipment including auto on headlights, auto climate control, 8+ speed auto, direct injection, and HID/LED lighting. Basically stuff that's been standard equipment on most vehicles since 2010. In typical fashion, Toyota/Lexus is often WAY late to the game.

 

[Something_Awesome]

I wish the 5th gens had the v8 option still. I can live with all the minor other inconveniences but that's the one thing I really wish they kept

Don't Toyota's V8's use a timing belt? The 4Runner's V6 uses a chain.

 

[02SE]

Don't Toyota's V8's use a timing belt? The 4Runner's V6 uses a chain.

The 4.7 V8 in the 4th gen 4Runner (and Lexus GX470) uses a timing belt.

The 4.6 V8 used in the Lexus GX460, uses a timing chain. Since the GX460 and 5th gen 4Runner use the same platform, it would be simple to use the 4.6 V8.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

The 4.7 V8 in the 4th gen 4Runner (and Lexus GX470) uses a timing belt.

The 4.6 V8 used in the Lexus GX460, uses a timing chain. Since the GX460 and 5th gen 4Runner use the same platform, it would be simple to use the 4.6 V8.

And the 5.7 uses a chain


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[Charles Bronson]

Timing chains aren't bullet proof. Many makes, including Toyota, have had issues with chains stretching, thus leading to timing issues/problems. Timing chain replacements can be twice or more the cost of a timing belt replacement because timing chains aren't typically designed to be be readily serviceable.

 

[02SE]

And the 5.7 uses a chain


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Of course. But since the 5.7 has never been used in the 4Runner, or the Lexus that shares the same platform as the 4Runner, I didn't mention it.

Other Toyota engines have used timing belts and chains too. I didn't mention those either, as they aren't directly related to the 5th gen 4Runner sold in the USA.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

Timing chains aren't bullet proof. Many makes, including Toyota, have had issues with chains stretching, thus leading to timing issues/problems. Timing chain replacements can be twice or more the cost of a timing belt replacement because timing chains aren't typically designed to be be readily serviceable.

Timing chain setups, with the right amount of carelessness on the part of engineers, can be less reliable than timing belts. Take the Jag/LR 5.0 V8 for example. Real problem is the tensioners (the chain doesn’t need to be replaced nearly as much as the tensioners wear down and/or stop applying the correct tension).

There have been some correlations of reliability with overzealous owners who change their oil every 3-5k, but the manual recommends a 15k mile OCI which is pure neglect. That oil is PITCH BLACK in less than 1000 miles due to the direct injection.

Toyotas, OTOH, with port injection, have honey colored oil after 5k miles. Now if they could remove the VVT and make the 1GR a pushrod / non-interference engine, we’d have a million-miler!


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[Bmnorm2]

Real engines use a Gear train!

There is a nice pic of the Cummins 6BT Gear driven setup in this article. It's also a great article if you are into engines, the Supra MKIV.

Cummins 6BT vs. Toyota 2JZ-GTE: Which Is Better? | DrivingLine

 

[CutthroatSlam]

Real engines use a Gear train!

There is a nice pic of the Cummins 6BT Gear driven setup in this article. It's also a great article if you are into engines, the Supra MKIV.

Cummins 6BT vs. Toyota 2JZ-GTE: Which Is Better? | DrivingLine

HD diesels use a gear train due to the heavy vibration and stress inherent with a compression ignition engine. This will stretch the chain. I have a 6.5 diesel powered Suburban and change the timing gears and chain at 100K miles. It’s a couple hour job.

Someone on a 6.5 diesel site said the timing chains on the 4.0 4Runner engine need to be changed at 300K miles. Given that our 4Runner was quickly approaching 300K miles, I did some research. Toyota does not spec a mileage limit on the timing chains. Rather, they need to be changed when the engine is having timing problems due to stretch In the chains. I found a video on changing the timing chains and it says it’s a 10 hour book job, but it looks more than that. The highly edited video was almost 2 hours long. It is not a job I would do if I was relying on the truck as my primary driver because it would be down 2 days, if not two weekends.

Video comparing inline 6 diesel to inline 6 gasser is lame. For example at 0:54 into the video it states that the Cummins 6BT starts to experience valve float at 3500 rpm. Well duh, the 6BT is a long stoke diesel designed for max torque at low rpm. It’s redline rpm is 3100 where it is programmed to de-fuel.

 

[Bmnorm2]

Yea.. Its a joke dude. I only mentioned it because a lot of people aren’t aware of anything other than pulley/belt or sprocket/chain. Each system has its advantages and disadvantages and neither is truly better, it just depends on application and customer requirements.

I was an engineer at Cummins for 5 years. I also own a ‘93 D250 with 6BT. Sounds like that 6.5 Detroit Diesel is a hunk of junk if you have to replace the entire timing assembly every 100k.


The article really isn’t meant to be a true head to head so much as a “here are some interesting things about these legendary engines”… but thanks for sharing your point of view.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

Yea.. Its a joke dude. I only mentioned it because a lot of people aren’t aware of anything other than pulley/belt or sprocket/chain. Each system has its advantages and disadvantages and neither is truly better, it just depends on application and customer requirements.

I was an engineer at Cummins for 5 years. I also own a ‘93 D250 with 6BT. Sounds like that 6.5 Detroit Diesel is a hunk of junk if you have to replace the entire timing assembly every 100k.


The article really isn’t meant to be a true head to head so much as a “here are some interesting things about these legendary engines”… but thanks for sharing your point of view.

It wasn’t Cummins in Charlotte, was it?


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[Something_Awesome]

The 4.7 V8 in the 4th gen 4Runner (and Lexus GX470) uses a timing belt.

The 4.6 V8 used in the Lexus GX460, uses a timing chain. Since the GX460 and 5th gen 4Runner use the same platform, it would be simple to use the 4.6 V8.

Thanks. Now you're making me wish there was a V8 option :lmao:

 

[02SE]

Yea.. Its a joke dude. I only mentioned it because a lot of people aren’t aware of anything other than pulley/belt or sprocket/chain. Each system has its advantages and disadvantages and neither is truly better, it just depends on application and customer requirements.

I was an engineer at Cummins for 5 years. I also own a ‘93 D250 with 6BT. Sounds like that 6.5 Detroit Diesel is a hunk of junk if you have to replace the entire timing assembly every 100k.


The article really isn’t meant to be a true head to head so much as a “here are some interesting things about these legendary engines”… but thanks for sharing your point of view.

I like our '17 HO Cummins 6.7 in our Dually. It pulls a heavy 5th wheel without issue. Just over 5 years and no issues with the emissions systems (or anything else) either.

 

[02SE]

Thanks. Now you're making me wish there was a V8 option :lmao:

You're not the only one.

 

[RAVL 2016]

Hmmmm....this response comes across rather "toolish" :biggrin1:

You clearly have me all wrong and are only reading what you want to see. I am not brand loyal or blind. The reason I brought up "6MT" is that this technology is even applied to some manuals which is quite rare given the operation of a manual.

I wouldn't touch most BMWs with a 10 foot pole for a number of obvious reasons. I ordered the M235 new and have owned it over 6 years and 60K miles. It's never been in for warranty work. Nothing has broken on it, not a rattle in it, nothing is degrading. It's pushing over 100hp and tq more than stock and has done that for the last 4 years or so and I beat the hell out of it. It's the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned including my wife's 2020 4Runner which has had quite a lot of warranty work done to it including being out of service for nearly 3 weeks addressing ABS faults. Both of these facts are shocking to me.

I fully expect something pricey to break on the BMW within the next year. I'm not ignorant to the reality of owning a BMW over the long term. I also now know how freaking great they are to drive. Quite the conundrum. Luckily, I'm a DIYer and love working on and modifying cars and trucks including teaching my wife how to work on and modify her 4Runner which we both deeply love.

I have to apologize. I was in a bad mood yesterday. True I found your original comment annoying ;-) but after writing it I attempted to delete it and for whatever reason didn’t get it right. These forums descend into childishness when folks do what I did. So apologies again. Take care.

 

[Bmnorm2]

It wasn’t Cummins in Charlotte, was it?


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No sir, I was at Plant #1 - Columbus, Indiana (this is literally the first Cummins plant, 100+ years old)

I never visited the Charlotte location. I went to the Charleston Turbo Facility a few times and Rocky Mount, NC, and somewhere in NY that I can't recall at the moment... Jamestown?

 

[Bmnorm2]

I like our '17 HO Cummins 6.7 in our Dually. It pulls a heavy 5th wheel without issue. Just over 5 years and no issues with the emissions systems (or anything else) either.

The emissions systems are definitely the tricky part for the stuff after 2007. That was actually what I spent a lot of time on... preventing turbo failures caused by the extreme soot production.

The fact you actually use your '17 HO for what it's meant is what's saving you. Lots of load and heat to burn already produced soot and to enable combustion that doesn't produce it. A lot of people just drive them around as a status symbol and end up with emissions systems issues.

 

[Pedro367]

BTW, normal people don't refer to the transmission designation of their car in the description. First, if it is an M235, you'd have to be a real tool to have an automatic (or whatever they call automatics today) unless it was not offered in manual, and second, no one on a 4Runner forum cares anyway about the transmission in your BMW. When you describe it that way, you come off as a tool. Not trying to argue, just offering some constructive advice on how not to appear like a tool.

I don't know, man. I'm probably going to get flamed for this one or you can call me a tool I guess, but the whole "I GoTtA RoW MaH OWn GeArS DoOd I'm AN EnTuSiAsT WiTH HuGE NuTS" argument is really annoying to me. I can obviously see the different driving experience factor of a stick as I've owned them, but autos now are so good now and much much faster. Now, do I think more cars should be available in them? Absolutely. But, you're giving up performance.

Sincerely, a guy that's had multiple stick shifts.

 

[RunTheJoules]

You clearly have never owned a vehicle with this feature. It's freaking great. In most driving situations, three flashes is MORE than enough time to signal your intentions and execute the lane change.

If this was such a bogus feature, nearly every car on the market wouldn't have it. I rent tons of cars for work and I can't remember the last time I rented a car that didn't have the feature. Even the Corolla has it as well as auto on head lights. A $55K 4Runner Pro? Nope!

Luckily the next gen 4Runner will have all of this as standard equipment including auto on headlights, auto climate control, 8+ speed auto, direct injection, and HID/LED lighting. Basically stuff that's been standard equipment on most vehicles since 2010. In typical fashion, Toyota/Lexus is often WAY late to the game.

Then buy something different, since Toyota is so outdated. Perhaps you'd whine less. :shrug:

My dad's 2013 F-150 has the 3-flash blinker and it annoys the hell out of me every time I have to drive it. The actual blinker seems like it's an extra 3-4 inches in either direction too, so it's basically a long-travel blinker.

Three flashes for a lane change probably is enough for BMW drivers, since they rarely seem to know how to properly drive or change lanes anyway. For me, the blinker stops before I've even crossed over the line.