What’s your hot take on 4Runners? I’ll go first:

Charles Bronson said:
I get it, you think the 5th gen 4Runner is perfect in every way. I feel differently. Thank God the world isn't full of like-minded people. What a boring place that would be!

The 4Runner is a great body on frame SUV with exceptional off-road capability but is lacking in a number of key areas largely because Toyota is an ultra conservative brand doesn't want to jeopardize the most important thing to the 4Runner brand, it's bullet proof reliability. The only thing it excels at compared to it's competition is its reliability. For lots of people, reliability is king when it comes to a vehicle purchase. Take note of how many Corollas and Camrys are sold for evidence of that. LOL. I'll also add that I wouldn't consider taking any other vehicle than a Toyota truck or 4Runner hundreds of miles overlanding. It's too much of a risk.

The 4Runner is really good at what it does, but it is far from perfect. It is as old school as you can get for a present day SUV. I really do like that, it is annoying to me that Toyota has the parts necessary to make it so much better all the while still being old school in overall execution. None of the parts I'd like to see on the 5th would make it any less reliable as the parts have been field tested for over a decade and God knows, it's not like the parts themselves are significantly more expensive compared to the current hardware. We're maybe $500-$1,000 to add an 8 speed auto and various auto features. Toyota is just lazy and strings buyers along with laughable feature changes to the 4Runner over the last 5+ years. Many of the changes are simply different combinations of the same old parts to create a new 4Runner spec. LOL

I don't think any spec 4Runner is worth any more than $40K new. Beyond that, it is overpriced for what you get.
Click to expand...

This post reads as if it's on the verge of totally bashing the 4Runner. Tone aside, the above post actually praises the vehicle. I suppose that the vehicle is so great that all attempts at criticizing the vehicle are futile!

In all seriousness, no car is perfect. But there are many that have a ravenous following, even with their faults. The 4Runner is one of them. As are other cars like the Mazda Miata, Volkswagen Golf R, Civic Si, and up until recently the WRX STi. These cars have pedigree and have maintained popularity for long stretches of time. I think some of these cars will be collectors cars as we move toward electrification.

The 4Runner is naturally aspirated with old school durability. Nobody wants an electric 4Runner. Imagine an electric Mazda Miata. Sure it will have lots of power, but part of its allure is its light weight and the connection the driver has to the road. It is a great car. My biggest issues with electric cars are driver-assist bloat and the damn weight of these things. An electric Miata will be heavy as hell. One of the reasons the Integra Type R is so beloved is because it literally weights NOTHING. I think people are starting to forget what it feel like to drive a car that doesn't weigh much.
 
BlackWorksInc said:
My hot take is that 4Runners are overpriced for what you get. :) (then again, so is just about every car out there these days...)
Click to expand...

25 years ago, I bought an SR5 with a V6, 5-speed, rear diff locker, moonroof, factory leather, premium sound system, etc. It's MSRP was about 34k.

Today, an SR5 with far more tech than the old '97, starts at 37+k.

34k in '97, is the equivalent of approximately 61k today.

If anything, 4Runners have gotten cheaper to buy. Based on consumer buying power.
 
jp.vegas said:
My 4Runner has auto-on headlights and auto climate control. Wtf are you on about?
Click to expand...

It's not standard equipment on the 4Runner. Toyota puts it on the most expensive models to justify their high price even though it costs them more to make two separate parts. Remember, this is the company that didn't put a power driver seat in the Tacoma until just a couple of years ago. This is how they try to keep things fresh. Add the most basic features incrementally over time. It's the Toyota way.
 
CutthroatSlam said:
I looked it up and an 8-speed automatic transmission would get you a 14% improvement in mileage. Not sure what direct injection gets you, but it comes with issues that affect longevity.
Click to expand...

Direct injection isn't any less reliable than port injection. Automakers have also figured out how to contend with sludge buildup on the intake valves as well.

DI and an 8 speed auto would result in a significantly better performing 5th 4Runner in every way with no impact to reliability. An opportunity lost with the 5th gen and they had over 13 years to do it. LOL
 
02SE said:
25 years ago, I bought an SR5 with a V6, 5-speed, rear diff locker, moonroof, factory leather, premium sound system, etc. It's MSRP was about 34k.

Today, an SR5 with far more tech than the old '97, starts at 37+k.

34k in '97, is the equivalent of approximately 61k today.

If anything, 4Runners have gotten cheaper to buy. Based on consumer buying power.
Click to expand...

I mean... my '04 Sport Edition with the V8 and most of the higher end options was something like $31-32K out the door IIRC. That's about 47k today, which would almost be equivalent (would still need to add another couple grand probably) to a nicely loaded TRD Premium with nice options, minus the V8. So you're not entirely wrong when you're talking about straight inflation adjustment, but the cost of living and wages hasn't been as linear or straight forward as that. For most people making $50k/yr in the 90's was upper middle class, in a good chunk of places it's barely enough to keep your head above water these days. I know that the amount of money I made back in '09-10 when I bought my 4th gen used had more buying power than the amount I make now (despite now making more than I used to on paper), and if I was lucky enough to make that same amount back in the 90's I would have been fairly well off much earlier in my life.

There's also the more complicated discussion about the large advancement in technology, manufacturing, material science, and reliance on overseas outsourcing that greatly reduced the cost of things that you could only dream of in the 90's. So it becomes a bit hard to make an apples to apples comparison from a 90's vehicle to a modern one. My coworker and I dabbled down that rabbit hole once or twice on our slow days, it gets complicated rather quickly.

It is far easier, more cost effective, and much cheaper to build a new 4Runner with EFI and ABS/VSC/TRAC/Crawl Control/etc. than it was to build a 4Runner with EFI and just ABS back in 1997; so with that in mind... there does seem to beg the question of "why doesn't my $50k SUV come with frivolous bullshit features, because it sure as hell doesn't cost you that much to put in stuff like ABS or EFI like it did back in the day?" Particularly when other brands are able to shove just about every useless gimmick in their vehicles for similar pricing.

To be clear, I'm was being a little factitious with my original comment; but it is something I have noticed over the years as I've gotten older and thought about planning ahead for my future and helping others plan as well. I know that $10/hr back in '97 was a pretty good job in most places, these days it's not even enough to break the poverty limit.

Charles Bronson said:
Direct injection isn't any less reliable than port injection. Automakers have also figured out how to contend with sludge buildup on the intake valves as well.

DI and an 8 speed auto would result in a significantly better performing 5th 4Runner in every way with no impact to reliability. An opportunity lost with the 5th gen and they had over 13 years to do it. LOL
Click to expand...

Not sure why you're so stuck on an 8-spd transmission... A bigger improvement for the 5th gen would have been simply re-tuning the throttle response to not be so numb in the first 1/4 or so of pedal travel and let the driver decide if they wanted to burn fuel for power or sip for economy. The DS-4 system isn't bad on it's own; but Toyota's last attempt to put direct injection and higher gear count in their Tacoma resulted in a rather banal drivetrain. The 2GR-FKS should never have been green-lit for the Tacoma in it's current form; they took a powerful direct injection V6 from Lexus then decided it needed to have an Atkinson's style stroke to it which gutted it's protentional low-end torque; then they coupled it to a 6-spd transmission... which they also decided they needed to tune for a Prius (despite nailing the shift feel in the Tundra and LC that has a beefier 6-spd). Everything about the Tacoma's drivetrain looked "good" on paper, until you drive one and realize that even after all the transmission updates and tweaks, it's still not really a truck drivetrain.

Same thing with the new Tundra, it's tuning for the transmission and engine leave some to be desired on take-off and at low-end; though I hear the new hybrid model really pulls, we haven't gotten one yet to drive. The new Tundra's drivetrain has plenty of protentional to be a strong and capable truck drivetrain; but Toyota can't help but shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. I already foresee a similar slew of "this thing hunts gears and shifts funny when I use it like a truck, it's doesn't feel strong off the line like a truck should" complaints we got with the Tacoma and still do, once we take care of the teething problems with the new drivetrain. At least with the Tundra it's entirely possible for it to be "fixed" with tuning I think, where as the Tacoma's V6 just doesn't have the low-end oopmh mechanically because they wanted a hybrid style engine in a non-hybrid vehicle.

I also wouldn't look to Jeep for much in the way of comparison, the sheer number of Jeeps we get traded in, then sold, and then back in the shop for constant issues does little to instill faith in anything Chrysler does. At the end of the day, if you're looking for a cushier/softer big SUV with frivolous features and big numbers of gears; you really should be looking at a Highlander or Sequoia. Toyota's attempts at trying to stretch the 4Runner across too many check-boxes I think is part of the problem in people's weird expectations for what it is. It really should have been treated as a baby Land Cruiser, no not the mall crawling "I have too much money and not enough sense" luxury SUV that only had one trim level (too poor for an LX or a G-Wagon) in the US; but it should have been sold the same way it's brother the Prado was sold overseas along side more stripped down offerings of the Land Cruiser. I think that's probably one of the bigger disservices to the 4Runner was when they started trying to stretch it from what it was and should be: a rugged, capable, relatively simple 4x4 to throw on the back roads.

In any case, maybe I am staying up too late past my bed time, turning into an old crotchy geezer. lol
 
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BlackWorksInc said:
I mean... my '04 Sport Edition with the V8 and most of the higher end options was something like $31-32K out the door IIRC. That's about 47k today, which would almost be equivalent (would still need to add another couple grand probably) to a nicely loaded TRD Premium with nice options, minus the V8. So you're not entirely wrong when you're talking about straight inflation adjustment, but the cost of living and wages hasn't been as linear or straight forward as that. For most people making $50k/yr in the 90's was upper middle class, in a good chunk of places it's barely enough to keep your head above water these days. I know that the amount of money I made back in '09-10 when I bought my 4th gen used had more buying power than the amount I make now (despite now making more than I used to on paper), and if I was lucky enough to make that same amount back in the 90's I would have been fairly well off much earlier in my life.

There's also the more complicated discussion about the large advancement in technology, manufacturing, material science, and reliance on overseas outsourcing that greatly reduced the cost of things that you could only dream of in the 90's. So it becomes a bit hard to make an apples to apples comparison from a 90's vehicle to a modern one. My coworker and I dabbled down that rabbit hole once or twice on our slow days, it gets complicated rather quickly.

It is far easier, more cost effective, and much cheaper to build a new 4Runner with EFI and ABS/VSC/TRAC/Crawl Control/etc. than it was to build a 4Runner with EFI and just ABS back in 1997; so with that in mind... there does seem to beg the question of "why doesn't my $50k SUV come with frivolous bullshit features, because it sure as hell doesn't cost you that much to put in stuff like ABS or EFI like it did back in the day?" Particularly when other brands are able to shove just about every useless gimmick in their vehicles for similar pricing.

To be clear, I'm was being a little factitious with my original comment; but it is something I have noticed over the years as I've gotten older and thought about planning ahead for my future and helping others plan as well. I know that $10/hr back in '97 was a pretty good job in most places, these days it's not even enough to break the poverty limit.



Not sure why you're so stuck on an 8-spd transmission... A bigger improvement for the 5th gen would have been simply re-tuning the throttle response to not be so numb in the first 1/4 or so of pedal travel and let the driver decide if they wanted to burn fuel for power or sip for economy. The DS-4 system isn't bad on it's own; but Toyota's last attempt to put direct injection and higher gear count in their Tacoma resulted in a rather banal drivetrain. The 2GR-FKS should never have been green-lit for the Tacoma in it's current form; they took a powerful direct injection V6 from Lexus then decided it needed to have an Atkinson's style stroke to it which gutted it's protentional low-end torque; then they coupled it to a 6-spd transmission... which they also decided they needed to tune for a Prius (despite nailing the shift feel in the Tundra and LC that has a beefier 6-spd). Everything about the Tacoma's drivetrain looked "good" on paper, until you drive one and realize that even after all the transmission updates and tweaks, it's still not really a truck drivetrain.

Same thing with the new Tundra, it's tuning for the transmission and engine leave some to be desired on take-off and at low-end; though I hear the new hybrid model really pulls, we haven't gotten one yet to drive. The new Tundra's drivetrain has plenty of protentional to be a strong and capable truck drivetrain; but Toyota can't help but shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. I already foresee a similar slew of "this thing hunts gears and shifts funny when I use it like a truck, it's doesn't feel strong off the line like a truck should" complaints we got with the Tacoma and still do, once we take care of the teething problems with the new drivetrain. At least with the Tundra it's entirely possible for it to be "fixed" with tuning I think, where as the Tacoma's V6 just doesn't have the low-end oopmh mechanically because they wanted a hybrid style engine in a non-hybrid vehicle.

I also wouldn't look to Jeep for much in the way of comparison, the sheer number of Jeeps we get traded in, then sold, and then back in the shop for constant issues does little to instill faith in anything Chrysler does. At the end of the day, if you're looking for a cushier/softer big SUV with frivolous features and big numbers of gears; you really should be looking at a Highlander or Sequoia. Toyota's attempts at trying to stretch the 4Runner across too many check-boxes I think is part of the problem in people's weird expectations for what it is. It really should have been treated as a baby Land Cruiser, no not the mall crawling "I have too much money and not enough sense" luxury SUV that only had one trim level (too poor for an LX or a G-Wagon) in the US; but it should have been sold the same way it's brother the Prado was sold overseas along side more stripped down offerings of the Land Cruiser. I think that's probably one of the bigger disservices to the 4Runner was when they started trying to stretch it from what it was and should be: a rugged, capable, relatively simple 4x4 to throw on the back roads.

In any case, maybe I am staying up too late past my bed time, turning into an old crotchy geezer. lol
Click to expand...

Great post. Weird, as I was thinking about that I absolutely look at my 4R through the prism of having owned an LC for many years this morning.
Truly, especially in this market, 4R’s really do offer solid value. And while some are not concerned, I really do value that they are made in Japan.

The model diffusion really does seem to speak to your concerns about trying to make the model be all things to all people as the idea of a “Sport” model rings hollow for me.
It will be interesting to see, once the 6th gen is announced in 2028, all of the “Final Edition” variants as well.
 
Charles Bronson said:
It's not standard equipment on the 4Runner. Toyota puts it on the most expensive models to justify their high price even though it costs them more to make two separate parts. Remember, this is the company that didn't put a power driver seat in the Tacoma until just a couple of years ago. This is how they try to keep things fresh. Add the most basic features incrementally over time. It's the Toyota way.
Click to expand...

It was standard on the model I bought. I didn’t check off some options box to add it. Yeah, if you buy the lowest trim available, you don’t get the features standard on the higher trims. That’s life, Toyota or otherwise.

Try seeing what’s standard vs desirable to have on a Porsche for example. Or the C63 I also have.
 
Not at all. What we ahve is a bunch of kids trying to prove to themselves they are relevant. My "Hot Take" is simple. Stop worrying about others and STFU.
 
Charles Bronson said:
It's an automotive enthusiasts forum. Sounds like you're in the wrong place.
Click to expand...

Sorry Chuck that I don't fit your narrative. I'm just fine. Don't worry about me. I have a different view than most people on here due to my age and experiences. And part and parcel... take what I originally said and apply it.
 
USStrongman said:
Sorry Chuck that I don't fit your narrative. I'm just fine. Don't worry about me. I have a different view than most people on here due to my age and experiences. And part and parcel... take what I originally said and apply it.
Click to expand...

Me too. I'm always open to hearing and respecting others opinions, even if I vehemently disagree with them. I can drink beer with most anyone. I love a civil debate.

Going way deeper here. Prepare yourself :) If I "STFU" and didn't express my views and be open to others views/opinions, I'd be a different person and not a better one . There are many things in the past that I felt very strongly about and after hearing someone's else side, I eventually changed my mind. The I'll "STFU" mindset, having blinders on, one party allegiance at all costs, and following the herd is largely why the world we live in can be so damn sad at times.
 
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