Wheel shimmy question

[swimmerdude1127]

Question for you pros out there...

Right now I'm running an all stock '13 SR5 with the exception of new wheels (17x9 Black Rhino Imperials with -12mm offset, giving me 4.5" backspacing) with 265/70/17 Cooper Discoverer ATP. When I first had the wheels/tires installed at Discount Tire, I had a shimmy in the truck at about 65-85mph. I got them re-balanced at a local place (Treadquarters, which Discount Tire reimbursed me for --- excellent customer service by the way), and when they did the work they said all 4 were out of balance initially. Now I'm experiencing shimmy at about 45-65mph. I just now realized they didn't RoadForce balance them at that particular shop the second time.

The weird thing is the shimmy/vibration is not always consistent. Sometimes it will do it and sometimes it won't. I will say that after having them balanced the last time it does it less often.

I just got back from a well-reputed 4x4 shop here in VA Beach. I was explaining my problem to the guy and he told me that it could have to do with the lug nuts. He said that most aftermarket wheels include standard "tuner" lug nuts which are not very robust and aren't good for the wheel long-term because the conical section isn't big enough (I think). He said because of this my wheel may not be centered and I should go with ET (extended thread, I believe) lug nuts. I was under the impression that ET lug nuts were only for use if you were running wheel spacers... so the lug nut could penetrate through and still have threads gripping through the spacer, if that makes sense.

Any insight or tips to help me smooth out my highway ride? Anyoine else had issues with this or changed out their lug nuts when they got aftermarket wheels?

Thanks a bunch for reading... just trying to smooth out my highway ride a little.

 

[swimmerdude1127]

FWIW... this pic shows the lug nuts he recommended. I DO NOT have wheel spacers. Thoughts/opinions? He also said this may not fix the issue completely, but could help. I'd just never heard of it.

 

[Ducmonsta]

I got your PM but I figured I'd answer here.

Those shank style lugs will only fit if your wheels allow it. I don't think it will help your situation. A vibration that is intermittent is most likely not a balance issue. I'm assuming you don't have any type of fix a flat or balance beads in the tires. These will cause your concern.

An intermittent vibration at your speeds could be a loose wheel. It would be unusual for someone not to be able to determine that, though. I have to assume that's not the problem. Plenty of people are using aftermarket wheels without intermittent vibrations.

I'm guessing the vibration isn't significant. You describe the vibration to happen within a 20mph window. Then after another rebalance, you experience the same vibration still within a 20mph window, but at slower speeds.

The only thing that I can possibly think that would cause this is improper mounting onto the truck. There are also "retaining washers" on our rotors when they come from the factory. These washers are designed to hold the rotor on during assembly. Many times, people do not remove them. With most factory wheels, there is a recessed area for these washers to sit inside. Aftermarket wheels do not have this area. Therefore they are mounted on top of these washers. This will change how the wheel sits on the rotor/hub every time.

I hope you figured out the problem soon.

 

[chip4]

Are your Black Rhino wheels "hub centric"? if not this might be your problem and that you might need centering rings.

 

[Ducmonsta]

Are your Black Rhino wheels "hub centric"? if not this might be your problem and that you might need centering rings.

You do not need to run hub centric wheels with our trucks. It helps, but proper mounting is always best.

 

[swimmerdude1127]

I'm guessing the vibration isn't significant. You describe the vibration to happen within a 20mph window. Then after another rebalance, you experience the same vibration still within a 20mph window, but at slower speeds.

The only thing that I can possibly think that would cause this is improper mounting onto the truck. There are also "retaining washers" on our rotors when they come from the factory. These washers are designed to hold the rotor on during assembly. Many times, people do not remove them. With most factory wheels, there is a recessed area for these washers to sit inside. Aftermarket wheels do not have this area. Therefore they are mounted on top of these washers. This will change how the wheel sits on the rotor/hub every time.

I hope you figured out the problem soon.

The vibration really isn't all that bad... but it gets annoying because I know it should be smoother, and the steering wheel shouldn't be shaking at all. I think I'm going to try to get a true RoadForce balancing tomorrow and see how that goes.

How specifically should I check for these retaining washers?

Are your Black Rhino wheels "hub centric"? if not this might be your problem and that you might need centering rings.

They are indeed hub centric, as per discount's website... (see bottom of link)
Car & light truck custom wheels for sale priced cheap made by Black Rhino

To be honest with you, I'm not sure how that would affect it and I'd be surprised if Discount sent me off without a proper setup. What should I be looking for here?

Thanks for your insight and comments!

 

[Ducmonsta]

The vibration really isn't all that bad... but it gets annoying because I know it should be smoother, and the steering wheel shouldn't be shaking at all. I think I'm going to try to get a true RoadForce balancing tomorrow and see how that goes.

How specifically should I check for these retaining washers?



They are indeed hub centric, as per discount's website... (see bottom of link)
Car & light truck custom wheels for sale priced cheap made by Black Rhino

To be honest with you, I'm not sure how that would affect it and I'd be surprised if Discount sent me off without a proper setup. What should I be looking for here?

Thanks for your insight and comments!

It will be obvious when the wheel is removed. They'll be on the lug studs.

 

[swimmerdude1127]

It will be obvious when the wheel is removed. They'll be on the lug studs.

Now I'm even more confused... haha... sorry. Bear with me here, guys; I'm still very new to this.

Is your response in reference to the retaining washers or hub cen vs lug cen question?

 

[swimmerdude1127]

Here's a reference pic I took during the initial install at Discount... can you tell from this pic if it has the washer or not?

 

[chip4]

FWIW... this pic shows the lug nuts he recommended. I DO NOT have wheel spacers. Thoughts/opinions? He also said this may not fix the issue completely, but could help. I'd just never heard of it.

Those appear to be the "Extended thread lugnuts" they are recommended for thicker after market wheels. Seen some sucess with these in the tacoma forums.
Most stock toyota wheels are hub centric -the wheels center bore matches the hubs flange with no gap. If you can see a gap in between your hub and wheel they are not hub centric, if you cannot see this you might have to make some measurements of the inner bore of your wheel and hub flange. You can try combination of these (lug-centric) "Extended thread lugnuts" and hubcentric rings if there is a gap.

 

[Qjake]

Your Black Rhino Imperials are lug centric wheels :boink: IIRC the bore on my 18 x 9 was 108mm and our hubs, again IIRC, are 106mm.

This from DTD:

All wheels are either hub centric or supplied with centering rings to ensure a smooth vibration free ride.

Mine did not come with centering rings from DTD and they weren't needed. As Bobby has said with proper install this shouldn't be an issue as the lugs will center the wheel. I guess the only way to check is to remove a wheel and check for the ring

As to your pic...There are no assembly washers left on that rotor but you probably should check the other three.

 

[swimmerdude1127]

Man, I think I learn something and then it's wrong, then I learn even more because it WAS wrong. This place is great... except for my wallet.

So here's my plan. I'm going to try and redo the RoadForce balancing some time in the next few days at the tire shop. When the wheels are off I'm going to get a measurement on how thick the wheel stock is where the lug nuts go (so that an ET lug nut's shank will fit properly). If I'm still having some issues with vibs at highway speeds, I'll try ET lug nuts and/or come back here and complain more.

Am I missing anything?

 

[adam2562]

where can we get hubcentric rings? do we have to take our own measurement and buy them or what?

 

[rpuranik]

I have 20" Black Rhino Sabi wheels with Michelin LTX MS2 tires on a 2012 T4R Ltd. Bought the vehicle new and replaced OEM wheels / tires in 2 mths time. Got it from Discount Tire. Right from day one I have this steering vibration when going at highway speeds - basically above 60 mph. I have taken it to the shop 4 times for re-balancing / hunter RF thing etc. It works OK for a week or so then the vibration comes again. I have the plastic hub centric rings which came with the wheels but they are not tight fitting on the wheels hub. Its been 1 year and around 12k miles on the new wheels and tires and the vibration is there always - at times the steering wheel wobbles and I can feel the vibration in the seat, the floor everywhere. I'm at a loss as to how to get this fixed. Will switching to OEM TE wheels help this ? Is it a wheel not sitting properly and wobbling issue ? Is it a tire balance issue ? I took it to Toyota dealer and he said its due to aftermarket wheels and can't help ! Any suggestions please. I'm on the verge of selling the 4Runner if this vibration can't be fixed. Its extremely annoying when on the freeway.

 

[mapdash]

I have 20" Black Rhino Sabi wheels with Michelin LTX MS2 tires on a 2012 T4R Ltd. Bought the vehicle new and replaced OEM wheels / tires in 2 mths time. Got it from Discount Tire. Right from day one I have this steering vibration when going at highway speeds - basically above 60 mph. I have taken it to the shop 4 times for re-balancing / hunter RF thing etc. It works OK for a week or so then the vibration comes again. I have the plastic hub centric rings which came with the wheels but they are not tight fitting on the wheels hub. Its been 1 year and around 12k miles on the new wheels and tires and the vibration is there always - at times the steering wheel wobbles and I can feel the vibration in the seat, the floor everywhere. I'm at a loss as to how to get this fixed. Will switching to OEM TE wheels help this ? Is it a wheel not sitting properly and wobbling issue ? Is it a tire balance issue ? I took it to Toyota dealer and he said its due to aftermarket wheels and can't help ! Any suggestions please. I'm on the verge of selling the 4Runner if this vibration can't be fixed. Its extremely annoying when on the freeway.

Dont sell your truck?!.....well sell it if you want but not for this reason. Its not the truck its the wheels/tires.

I have been through the entire process you described with mutiple balances by different shops. Finally ended up with a toyota balance with the appropriate toyota hardware for our wheels ( ie adaptor)

Try rotating the worst wheel to the rear. That helped with my situation. Also tire pressure seems to effect mine. Keeping around 40 seems better than 35.

I have one bad wheel/tire that they cant balance.

If it bothers you that much sell your aftermarket set up and buy some used OEMs.

 

[Skeletor03]

I have a '12 Limited with OE 20 inch rims. I have 28000 miles on my truck now and I just started to get a little vibration in the steering wheel. It is extremely annoying and I have had the wheels rotated and placed on a road force. My mechanic said all the wheels came back perfect. He thinks it is the tires and said I will have to see the difference when I change the tires out. I am going to Toyota soon for my 30000 mile and will complain there and see if anything changes. This is BS...40000 dollar truck that vibrates when driving at 65 mph on smooth highway roads.