"WS" Transmission Fluid stands for...

[JB.]

CJ3Flyr, couple of questions. (By the way, your posts are consistently high quality).

Did you do any towing before installing the cooler?

A few times, when the 4runner has really worked hard and I've stopped and gotten out, I've smelled what I thought was burnt plastic. Never found a cause. Would you characterize the fluid smell as burnt plastic by any chance?

 

[CJ3Flyr]

CJ3Flyr, couple of questions. (By the way, your posts are consistently high quality).

Did you do any towing before installing the cooler?

A few times, when the 4runner has really worked hard and I've stopped and gotten out, I've smelled what I thought was burnt plastic. Never found a cause. Would you characterize the fluid smell as burnt plastic by any chance?

Pre cooler I might have 2-3 short tows w/ an open utility trailer and a motorcycle in flat Florida. I don't remember. I do know I had the cooler on very early, pre 5000 mile mark... I also won't hook a trailer up (of any size/weight) until at least 1500 miles and at least two good highway runs out of concern for the axles longterm reliability. The number/scale of tows pre-cooler was insignificant.


The smell of the fluid was similar to burnt plastic with a little burnt rubber and oil mixed in... Another possible source for the burnt smell when working it hard is grease. When the driveshaft is greased it always slings some grease. It takes a good cardio workout for the T4R to get the exhaust super hot front to back. Some of the slung grease then gets burned off. I had another vehicle that did the same thing. You could grease it, drive 2k miles then tow. 1st tow after a driveshaft greasing (even with 2k miles in between) and you'd swear you had a big leak somewhere.


I also had a 93 Toy pickup. It was in an accident. The body shop didn't catch the kinked line to the trans cooler. That produced the burning platic/rubber smell too from an excessively hot transmission.:bash: That truck is a whole other post... I will say it kept me away from Toyota until this vehicle and the problem was the way SE Toyota (regional, not a dealer) handled me and the challenges, not the vehicle. It only took me 14 years, glad I'm over that trauma:lmao:


Obviously I can't be sure what you're smelling but it's possible some of the odor is the transmission IMHO. IIRC the vent is on the top of the bellhousing where the engine and trans bolt together. Due to the engine fan blowing back you may notice the smell standing on the side of the vehicle though...

:cheers:

 

[gm350reratliff]

For what its worth, Allison puts a special trans fluid in their trannys. After 10 to 15k that stuff turns from a red to a dark brown and smells burnt. Supposedly that is what it is supposed to do. It still has all the lubricating properties just a different color. The external filter catches everything it needs to.

 

[CJ3Flyr]

For what its worth, Allison puts a special trans fluid in their trannys. After 10 to 15k that stuff turns from a red to a dark brown and smells burnt. Supposedly that is what it is supposed to do. It still has all the lubricating properties just a different color. The external filter catches everything it needs to.

Interesting... If I didn't have such an increase in smoothness and consistency with the fresh fluid I might consider this is a possibility in the case of the T4R. Anything is possible. I wish we had a chemical/oil engineer that drove a T4R here Once or twice in my life I've needed schoolin' :lmao:

I use the TranSynd in boat transmissions that require Dexron III as it covers the Dexron III requirement. It's good stuff and yields great results in the ZF's in the boat. It shifts smoother and runs quieter than with regular Dexron III. I figured TranSynd had to be good to survive in the Allison application, that’s why I tried it. I guess Allison really did spec some pretty good, high tech, unique stuff.

:cheers:

 

[JB.]

..Another possible source for the burnt smell when working it hard is grease. When the driveshaft is greased it always slings some grease. It takes a good cardio workout for the T4R to get the exhaust super hot front to back. Some of the slung grease then gets burned off. I had another vehicle that did the same thing. You could grease it, drive 2k miles then tow. 1st tow after a driveshaft greasing (even with 2k miles in between) and you'd swear you had a big leak somewhere..

:cheers:

Thanks.

I recently greased so I'm goin' with that one for peace of mind, but I'm still paying close attention to the fluid issue.

 

[eskimochaos]

Seems the capacity of the A750f trans is 11.5 quarts regardless of its application.

Some interesting stuff in here.

http://www.ezdries.net/Vidpics/temp/A750F_Automatic_Transmission.pdf

 

[simple]

This is perfect CJ! I had asked the question about a year or so ago somewhere on here if you could just use the car's internal pump to pump out the old fluid via the cooler lines. I'm coming up on 80k on our 05, still has the original WS fluid in it. I need to get this done too, and the dealership says it's a $350 job (hahaha...whatever).

Since you're the only one I've found on here that's actually serviced the sealed transmission, mind if I bounce a couple of questions your way?

1) Did you let the fluid heatup to operating temp before draining it out?
2) Which line on the trans cooler are you pulling to have it drain out "top or bottom?"
3) So: basically, let it heat up to normal op temp - pull the drain plug first "well, make sure the fill plug can come off first" - measure out how much drains out -put drain plug back in - fill with new fluid at same amount that came out - then pull the cooler line, start it, let it drain through that - measure how much came out - replace via fill plug with same amount - until it's pink again. That's basically the routine?

Thanks CJ!

So are you even dropping the pan for this? Or am I to assume that all you really have to do, is no-kidding pull out the return line, and keep refilling the through the dipstick hole (mine is non-sealed)? I remember in Mike's thread before it was destroyed, he dropped his pan. But I can't remember if he put it back on, for the actual flush...

 

[CJ3Flyr]

So are you even dropping the pan for this? Or am I to assume that all you really have to do, is no-kidding pull out the return line, and keep refilling the through the dipstick hole (mine is non-sealed)? I remember in Mike's thread before it was destroyed, he dropped his pan. But I can't remember if he put it back on, for the actual flush...

No pan drop... IMHO it's not necessary unless you have a special situation like a bad radiator that contaminated the trans with anti-freeze or you made it to 150k without servicing it, ever. I have dropped two pans between 125k and 150k. Both transmissions were cared for via flushing as I've described. I decided to drop the pan because I felt I should/had to. It was a total waste of time and effort. Flushing through the return with regularity does a spectacular job of keeping things clean and new looking. Even the filter elements had virtually nothing on/in them.

So, no-kidding, drain the pan through the plug, refill, pull the return line, crank it up, run it until it gurgles. Shut it off, refill, repeat until fresh pink fluid comes out. It is as easy as it sounds I suppose you could just pull the return line without doing the plug. I like to take advantage of the rush of old fluid through the plug to pull out sediment etc. That's some 'made up thing' in my head though, don't know how valid that is... It's just how I roll.


:awaisON'T FORGET THE BOX WRENCH ON THE DANGLING HOSE THAT'S AIMING INTO THE PAN! It will make a hell of a mess if you don't do something to anchor the end of the line that's spitting out the fluid. Also, after the return line is back on, you must start the vehicle and cycle it through the gears to positive engagement before you can get an accurate fluid level check.





In Mike's thread (or via PMing he and I were doing) at one point he admitted he could have gotten away with just a return line flush. It looked pretty good to him IIRC. Yes, he did put the pan back on prior to pulling the return line and flushing, you have to.

BTW, Mike emailed me back and is going to attempt to reconstruct that thread :bigok:
:cheers:

 

[eskimochaos]

Chris did you replace with WS fluid? I read replacing with non ws fluid results in the solenoids not working correctly.

I also learned that ws fluid is rated for 30k severe and 100k normal. I will do more research when the time permits.

 

[CJ3Flyr]

Chris did you replace with WS fluid? I read replacing with non ws fluid results in the solenoids not working correctly.

I also learned that ws fluid is rated for 30k severe and 100k normal. I will do more research when the time permits.

That 30k severe service thing is cool. I'd love to see more on that. I saw your "11.5qts regardless of application post", that's very interesting. Maybe that "severe service" 30k thing your mentioning is how they get around it with the LC. "If your LC is doing severe service such as towing a cannon for shooting at infidels, carrying Taliban, hunting in Africa or driving the Outback change it every 30K":lmao:


I did NOT use Toyota's official WS fluid.:whipping2 Recently Amsoil and others have started coming out with low viscosity ATF; WS is part of that classification/family of ATFs. The Amsoil and some of the new Dexron VI fluids specifically say suitable for WS applications. WS was one of the first low-vis ATFs hence the perception “Toyota is the only source for fluid”.


At normal operating temp the viscosity of Type IV and WS is virtually identical. When the fluid is cold WS is much lighter. I have it conceptualized as the difference between 10w-30 and 0w-30 motor oil. The ‘warm’ properties are theoretically the same but the ‘cold’ properties are very different and generally favor the 0w-30, same as motor oil.


As far as solenoids messing up: it’s quite possible especially when it’s cold outside. An A750 designed to run on WS may/probably has some different internal valving/tuning and perhaps different actuators. Without studying a parts guide it’s hard to know but I suspect it has slightly different stuff than an ’03 model A750. That's what makes the use of the low-vis ATF so important...


:cheers:

 

[csdavis62]

I wish I had found this thread several weeks ago. Just purchased a 2004 V8 2WD with the sealed 5 Spd auto trans with 92K. I had the timing belt and water pump done along with the serpentine belt with fresh long life coolant. I went ahead and had the trans fluid changed using the machine that relys on the pump via the cooler line. I spoke with a friend who owns a transmission shop and has worked on transmissions for over 20 years and decided to go with Mobile 1 synthetic trans fluid. It is a slightly higher viscosity than WS but according to him will not hurt the transmission in any way. He did say that I might notice slightly different shifting performance and I have the shifts are more positive and firmer across the board. I also notice a slightly stronger pull at idle when at a red light no problem just a bit more break pressure required to keep the truck from moving forward, most people would probably not even notice.

I also had the power steering system flushed and fresh synthetic fluid installed. I hope to be good for another 100K. I don't tow anything and almost all my miles are highway miles. I figure it will need a set of plugs soon and maybe a fuel filter but other than brake pads and tires with oil changes with Mobile 1 synthetic etc. is all I plan on doing.

 

[docfeelgood]

I agree... thanks for the legal tid-bit head up... I too have a similar issue with Toyota Certified Dept....power train sensor related in my case, but i agree, keep the letters pouring in!

 

[scottm]

A few times, when the 4runner has really worked hard and I've stopped and gotten out, I've smelled what I thought was burnt plastic. Never found a cause. Would you characterize the fluid smell as burnt plastic by any chance?

My three Land Cruisers often had that smell, especially after a long highway run.

I used to drain and fill a gallon or so on my older 80s, but a well known transmission guru suggested I open the pan, pull my coil wire, and motor the engine with the starter until all the transmission fluid is pumped out. He cautioned me not to start the engine, running the transmission dry can do very bad things quickly. Toyota just replaced my torque converter and all the fluid in my '03 Land Cruiser (there was nothing wrong with it), so I won't be using that technique until I get the '03 4R I'm hunting for.

 

[eskimochaos]

My three Land Cruisers often had that smell, especially after a long highway run.

I used to drain and fill a gallon or so on my older 80s, but a well known transmission guru suggested I open the pan, pull my coil wire, and motor the engine with the starter until all the transmission fluid is pumped out. He cautioned me not to start the engine, running the transmission dry can do very bad things quickly. Toyota just replaced my torque converter and all the fluid in my '03 Land Cruiser (there was nothing wrong with it), so I won't be using that technique until I get the '03 4R I'm hunting for.

Why did you have the torque converter in your LC replaced?

 

[scottm]

Why did you have the torque converter in your LC replaced?

Longish story. I bought it used, and it had a slight engine vibration, felt like a weak cylinder. Dealer said his mechanic had noticed, and they'd find and fix the problem. After bringing in a Toyota specialist they determined it was the torque converter, and replaced it. That didn't change the vibration, so they went through the injectors, spark plugs, wires, valves, etc, without finding the source of the vibration. They gave it back to me and said they were done. I had asked them to top off the coolant when I picked it up, and noticed it was already low again, so I was concerned that it was a head gasket (a weakness on the 80-series LC). I carefully checked the oil and found it was a bit high, like around two gallons high:

 

[eskimochaos]

Good to hear everything was fine. The v8 is very picky when it comes to oil and an additional two gallons would certainly cause unusual vibration - at least it was overfilled as I have heard horror stories of the drain plug falling off after some jackass at te dealer over torqued the drain plug and stripped all the plugs.

Was this a dealer error?

At least you got some new expensive things lol.

 

[scottm]

Yep, dealer error. It had recently had all it's fluids done there, including new coolant, then it was traded in and should've had a bazillion-point check done. Probably the min-wage teenager at the oil change hit the fill button twice on the auto-fill machine. It was a good price, probably because of this vibration. The previous owner may have traded it in because of this, who knows?

I do my own oil changes, it's not like I even have to lift it, takes maybe half an hour to check everything. And I know the driveshafts and such are done, CV boots aren't cracking, etc. There may be things a dealer maintenance guy would notice that I wouldn't, but I don't trust them to properly torque the oil drain plug or wheel nuts. I buy my oil filters and crush washers from the dealership, just so I have some record in their system while I'm under warranty. And I save the receipts, in case they lose the records.

 

[dirttrailhead]

Mixed ATF T-IV and WS transmission fluid

I recently purchased a 2005 Limited V6 with only 35,000 miles on it. Bought it from a family who's father owned the truck and had passed away. He apparently took good care of it and had all the maintenance receipts. After studying over the maintenance receipts I discovered that at 30,000 miles the dealer drained and filled the transmission with ATF T-IV (about 4 qts.), according to the service receipt, but this car requires ATF WS fluid.
1. Should I be concerned that there is a mix of WS and T-IV?
2. When you drain and fill from just the drain pan and fill hole, are you only replacing about 30% of your transmission fluid? And so do I have about a 30/70 mix of tranny fluid in my entire tranny system?
3. If the mix of WS and T-IV is bad, should I do an entire flush and fill? Or given that there are suched mixed reviews on WS, should I just not worry about it. Or is simply draining from the pan and putting another few quarts of WS enough to correct this situation?

Please excuse all the questions. I'm new to the 4Runner family, new to caring so much about a vehicle, and new to such postings. Thank you...:beer:

 

[KB084RUNNER]

I would do at least a drain fill. If you have the time do a complete fluid exchange and then you have a starting point mileage wise for new fluid.

 

[KB084RUNNER]

1. Should i be concerned that there is a mix of ws and t-iv? Not the best scenario but probably won't hurt it

2. When you drain and fill from just the drain pan and fill hole, are you only replacing about 30% of your transmission fluid? And so do i have about a 30/70 mix of tranny fluid in my entire tranny system? Yes, yes

3. If the mix of ws and t-iv is bad, should i do an entire flush and fill? Or given that there are suched mixed reviews on ws, should i just not worry about it. Or is simply draining from the pan and putting another few quarts of ws enough to correct this situation? See my first response

please excuse all the questions. I'm new to the 4runner family, new to caring so much about a vehicle, and new to such postings. Thank you...:beer:

see above