2010 4R 4.0 V6 Multiple Significant Oil Leaks

[Quentin]

The oil on the face of the timing chain cover doesn't make any sense to me. You have a couple high probability leak locations on the GR family engines. You have (4) "3 point" areas where the timing chain cover meets the head and the block. These are in the V bank and below your exhaust ports. These are, by far, the most difficult ones to get right because you have 3 pieces of aluminum, FIPG, and the head gasket. They usually don't leak to the front of the timing chain like your picture is showing.

There are 3 point areas where the timing chain cover, head, and cam carrier meet, where the timing chain cover, valve cover, and cam carrier meet, and where the timing chain cover, oil pan number 1, and block meet. None of these leaks really appear the way yours is showing. That almost looks like one of the lines that feeds the VVTi is leaking from a banjo gasket or something.

As said above, the TIS calls out repair times for all of these different leaks. I still don't see where they think it is actually leaking from, though. Once they determine where the leak is, it should be pretty simple to add up the hours and show in the TIS what Toyota thinks as far as repair time.

 

[toyotatech84]

Why on earth would they pull the whole engine out?!? I showed my tech the pics and he said he's done numerous timing cover reveals ON vehicle. But hey to each their own. If I may,again, act as a service advisor I would recommend to install a new water pump since the cover is going to be taken apart. Last time I quoted one out, it was about $175 extra for the pump coolant during a customer pay reseal.

 

[joneseyyy]

Well, at least I'm not the only 5th Gen guy to have an "engine out" service now... At least we have something in common with the Ferrari guys? Mine was for a timing assembly problem/noise.

 

[Helix26404]

Why on earth would they pull the whole engine out?!? I showed my tech the pics and he said he's done numerous timing cover reveals ON vehicle. But hey to each their own. If I may,again, act as a service advisor I would recommend to install a new water pump since the cover is going to be taken apart. Last time I quoted one out, it was about $175 extra for the pump coolant during a customer pay reseal.

This is a great idea and I appreciate you mentioning it. I just called and asked them to replace the water pump as well.

 

[Helix26404]

The oil on the face of the timing chain cover doesn't make any sense to me. You have a couple high probability leak locations on the GR family engines. You have (4) "3 point" areas where the timing chain cover meets the head and the block. These are in the V bank and below your exhaust ports. These are, by far, the most difficult ones to get right because you have 3 pieces of aluminum, FIPG, and the head gasket. They usually don't leak to the front of the timing chain like your picture is showing.

There are 3 point areas where the timing chain cover, head, and cam carrier meet, where the timing chain cover, valve cover, and cam carrier meet, and where the timing chain cover, oil pan number 1, and block meet. None of these leaks really appear the way yours is showing. That almost looks like one of the lines that feeds the VVTi is leaking from a banjo gasket or something.

As said above, the TIS calls out repair times for all of these different leaks. I still don't see where they think it is actually leaking from, though. Once they determine where the leak is, it should be pretty simple to add up the hours and show in the TIS what Toyota thinks as far as repair time.

Thanks for this. So far, they have identified the application of the seals themselves as the cause of these leaks. I was not convinced of the likelihood of multiple seal failures simultaneously.

Where specifically would you suggest I ask them to focus on in terms of finding the leak (other than the line you mentioned above). How ever remote a possibility it could be I would like to know your thoughts. Thanks.

 

[Quentin]

Thanks for this. So far, they have identified the application of the seals themselves as the cause of these leaks. I was not convinced of the likelihood of multiple seal failures simultaneously.

Where specifically would you suggest I ask them to focus on in terms of finding the leak (other than the line you mentioned above). How ever remote a possibility it could be I would like to know your thoughts. Thanks.

Which seals did they say specifically?

There is a liquid gasket (that then cures) that is applied all along the mating faces of the block, timing chain cover, cam carrier, head, and oil pan number one. If this "seal" were the issue, it would be due to cleanliness of the parts at application timing or some issue with the liquid gasket itself (wrong spec, etc). If this seal were the leak cause, it wouldn't be on the front of the timing chain cover like your pictures show. It would be down the sides where the timing chain cover meets the block, head, and cam carrier. The front seal, behind the crank pulley, could be a potential leak location that would leave oil on the front of the timing chain cover. There are also some small covers on the timing chain cover for access to the chain tensioner, for example.

The engine goes together in this way. Block -> Heads on top of the block -> cam carrier on top of the heads -> Timing chain cover on the face of all 3 of those -> oil pan one on the bottom -> valve covers on the top.
________
[_______] valve cover
| |_____| cam carrier
| |0_0_0| head
| |_____| block
[______] oil pan 1
The liquid gasket I'm talking about is shown in red.

 

[1engineer]

Which seals did they say specifically?

There is a liquid gasket (that then cures) that is applied all along the mating faces of the block, timing chain cover, cam carrier, head, and oil pan number one. If this "seal" were the issue, it would be due to cleanliness of the parts at application timing or some issue with the liquid gasket itself (wrong spec, etc). If this seal were the leak cause, it wouldn't be on the front of the timing chain cover like your pictures show. It would be down the sides where the timing chain cover meets the block, head, and cam carrier. The front seal, behind the crank pulley, could be a potential leak location that would leave oil on the front of the timing chain cover. There are also some small covers on the timing chain cover for access to the chain tensioner, for example.

The engine goes together in this way. Block -> Heads on top of the block -> cam carrier on top of the heads -> Timing chain cover on the face of all 3 of those -> oil pan one on the bottom -> valve covers on the top.
________
[_______] valve cover
| |_____| cam carrier
| |0_0_0| head
| |_____| block
[______] oil pan 1
The liquid gasket I'm talking about is shown in red.

It almost looks like a hose or fitting pinholed and sprayed the engine over time. Not an internal seal leak. Not saying that is the case but the look.

 

[LandCruiser]

It almost looks like a hose or fitting pinholed and sprayed the engine over time. Not an internal seal leak. Not saying that is the case but the look.

Right, multiple catastrophic leaks seems very very odd unless something is being left out--like the truck being wrecked and taking a direct blow to the engine block.

 

[Helix26404]

Which seals did they say specifically?

There is a liquid gasket (that then cures) that is applied all along the mating faces of the block, timing chain cover, cam carrier, head, and oil pan number one. If this "seal" were the issue, it would be due to cleanliness of the parts at application timing or some issue with the liquid gasket itself (wrong spec, etc). If this seal were the leak cause, it wouldn't be on the front of the timing chain cover like your pictures show. It would be down the sides where the timing chain cover meets the block, head, and cam carrier. The front seal, behind the crank pulley, could be a potential leak location that would leave oil on the front of the timing chain cover. There are also some small covers on the timing chain cover for access to the chain tensioner, for example.

The engine goes together in this way. Block -> Heads on top of the block -> cam carrier on top of the heads -> Timing chain cover on the face of all 3 of those -> oil pan one on the bottom -> valve covers on the top.
________
[_______] valve cover
| |_____| cam carrier
| |0_0_0| head
| |_____| block
[______] oil pan 1
The liquid gasket I'm talking about is shown in red.

Thanks, this is great. We know for sure the valve cover gaskets were leaking on both driver and passenger sides, so that's one of the leaks. The second was at the rear main seal. These were the two "minor" incidences of the 3.

When I was at the dealership yesterday taking the 6 pictures above, the tech was removing the timing cover to ascertain the cause of the leak there and repair it. When the cover was removed, the tech said the "RTV silicone seal on the bottom 3rd of the timing cover" was completely breaking down and coming apart in multiple locations. Supposedly this leak was the most significant and was responsible for most of the oil seen in the 6 pictures. I don't have the in-depth knowledge here to interpret this statement, so please be gentle.

I wasn't able to see this with my own eyes and take pictures, but does this information shed any further light?

 

[Quentin]

Sounds like the leak was between the block and timing chain cover then. That just seems unlikely to coat the front of the timing chain cover in oil, but it depends how the block and timing chain mate there. I have more experience with the 2GR rather than the 1GR which might have a different design in that area.

I'm pretty shocked to see 4 different leak locations. That is extremely abnormal. I would only expect to see something like that in a hand built, offline training engine where you have ample opportunity to screw things up (contaminate the sealing surface, roll the valve cover gasket, damage the rear seal during installation, unskilled assembler). I've also never seen FIPG "break down". In my experience, it seals or it doesn't. Rarely do I see a leak through the FIPG. It is typically between the FIPG and the metal.

Sounds like your tech knows what he is doing and is moving forward with the repair. These are pretty easy engines to assemble from the longblock, so I'm sure he'll have you rolling in no time.

 

[Helix26404]

Right, multiple catastrophic leaks seems very very odd unless something is being left out--like the truck being wrecked and taking a direct blow to the engine block.

There's no way for me to prove this to you over a forum setting (and definitely no need for me to), but FWIW, there has been no physical trauma to the engine or the vehicle as a whole.

Finally, the dealer quickly backed off their accusations that I caused this once they tore the engine down and saw the damage for themselves.

 

[LandCruiser]

There's no way for me to prove this to you over a forum setting (and definitely no need for me to), but FWIW, there has been no physical trauma to the engine or the vehicle as a whole.

Finally, the dealer quickly backed off their accusations that I caused this once they tore the engine down and saw the damage for themselves.

I'm not doubting you, I just think that it's literally impossible in today's day and age for an engine so terrible to make it out of the factory.

Sell the truck when it's fixed and move on.

 

[Helix26404]

Well, they finished the repairs today. I thought I would share some pictures. I am very pleased with their work and the attention they gave to my vehicle. Let's hope this doesn't happen again.

Really appreciate everyone's help here. Thanks!

 

[Helix26404]

2 more...

 

[Rubberdown]

Yaaaaaay. And it sparkles now cuz it's clean! Glad to see your back in business!

 

[KS4RUNNER]

Glad you are back up and running. The after pics are incredible, you would never know at all that there was an oil leak issue. Hope all is well for you now.

 

[Jeremy556]

No wonder they were quoting 30-40 hours; that included 10-20 hours of detailing. I wouldn't want to drive my 4runner if the engine was that clean.

 

[kowski49]

I may have missed it, but which dealer did the work? Toyota of Dallas?
Hope everything stays fixed.

 

[Matt fe2o3]

Hokay, been there done that...on a Ford. I did not read all the threads I admit, however if a cylinder is slightly out of round (machine tools wear and don't always get replaced - as do rings and such), the result is pressurizing of the crankcase and all passageways thereto connected.

The result is blowing every seal in the path of lease resistance and the PCV valve won't help you much.

Don't want to sound like a downer, but keep an eye on this. If it is an out of round cylinder the process/symptoms will repeat.

One good tool is UV dye for oil. Throw an ounce in and look with a UV light periodically. Do it every oil change is MHO. Wont hurt a thing. Napa has it.

 

[1000MPH]

:thumb3:Appreciate you documenting all of this.