4Runner alternator upgrade (gen 5)

[noahzr]

About the other strand of this thread:

Hi "Threadjacker2014" lol

... I like Alpine; just replaced my JL Audio four ten sub w/ four Alpine "SWR-1522D" fifteens'...

Would you recommend these? I'm lookin' to get a pair of 15s to replace (purge) my Kickers.

[MENTION=10638]randyman[/MENTION] -

Thread jack: The requested system components in my T4R. An interesting fact: It is possible to fit 9" woofers (Morel Elates in my case!) in the stock 6x9 door locations w/o any visible door panel mods!!! My doors look 100% factory - Gotta love that.

System Components:
• Alpine INA-W910 Navigation/DVD Head Unit
• Alpine PXA-H800 DSP (X-Over/EQ/Time Alignment/DTS 5.1 decoding)
• Alpine RUX-C800 Remote (In-Dash Remote for PXA-H800)
• Alpine DHA-S690 6-Disc DVD/CD Changer w/ 5.1 Optical out
• Alpine HCE-C117D Back-up Camera with direct connect to INA-W910
• PAC SWI-RC Steering Wheel Interface and PAC TR7 “Video Bypass” Interface
• ARC Audio KS2500.1 sub Amp (2848Watts at 1 Ohm)
• JL HD600/4 Amplifier (Bridged: 300 Watts x2 on 9” Elate Woofers in front doors)
• JL HD600/4 Amplifier (150w x2 on Dash Speakers; 150w x2 on Rear Doors)
• JBL W12GTi Subs (Three); Sealed Enclosure – 1.3cu.ft. each chamber
• Morel Elate 9" Midbass (Front Doors)
• Morel Hybrid Integra 402 - 4" Point Source 2-Way (Dash/off the windshield)
• Morel Tempo 6c - 6.5” Coax (Rear Doors)
• DieHard Platinum 31M Battery – Stock Location
• Knuconceptz & Stinger 1/0 OFC Power Wire + 300-Amp ANL Fuse

Are you running all this off the stock alternator?? 3448watts? Also, when you say "Stock Location", could I assume you mean with no mods to the battery tray?
:thanks:

EDIT: NM, I see what you did in your build thread

 

[rigtec]

About the other strand of this thread:



Would you recommend these? I'm lookin' to get a pair of 15s to replace (purge) my Kickers.

I'd recommend them to anyone who can spare 4.5 cuft of cargo space, but even 'ONE' "SWR-1522D" in a 2 cuft, Stuffed/Sealed environment, would be enough for even the most scrutinizing perfectionist!

 

[rigtec]

"...Would you recommend these? I'm lookin' to get a pair of 15s to replace (purge) my Kickers..."

In the above statement you were asking about my use of the ALPINE "R-series" 'SWR-1522D' 2ohm, dual v.c. fifteen inch sub. I'm not sure if you saw this thread: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/174196-got-bass.html ...but if you haven't thumbed through it as of yet I think it may be helpful to you!

P.S: "If we need to discuss the subject of audio system projects or future upgrades we need to do so over there to avoid mixing the two subjects any further, Best to you!"

 

[Vwright14]

My H.O. Alt is finally going on today lol.

 

[Randyman...]

[MENTION=10638]randyman[/MENTION] -
Are you running all this off the stock alternator?? 3448watts? Also, when you say "Stock Location", could I assume you mean with no mods to the battery tray?
:thanks:

EDIT: NM, I see what you did in your build thread

Absolutely - and it's actually 4048Watts RMS with the dual JL HD600's and the ARC KS2500.1 (2848W on the subs @ 1Ohm per the birth sheet, 600W on front midbass, 300W on front mid/tweets, and 300W for rear doors - all RMS ratings at the real impedances I'm running). 300 AMP ANL fuse feeds the amp rack...

Never a peep of problems from the stock alternator. The install (and electrical system) has gone literally untouched for 3 years now (save for cleaning the terminals and grounds once).

I will say I picked up an AGM "battery tender" (2Amp trickle charger) to top-off and help de-sulfate the pricey 31M Diehard once every few months - but have never had issues keeping the truck cranking even after 30-45 minute freeway drives at rather loud sustained SPL's (always ends up a little louder on the drive home from band practice with five JBL 18"s and over 6KW out there!!!)...

Love that Diehard Platinum 31M!!! Too bad they are no more...

 

[flyinhawaiian01]

You can still get that battery, its just red/black and has a different sticker on it. Enersys made the batteries for Sears, it was nothing more than a grey/blue-colored Odyssey battery.

Not quite sure why Sears stopped bringing re-badged Odyssey batteries in, I can only assume they weren't a big seller in their stores. Most people will just buy the cheapest battery needed for their vehicle, its sort of the market that Sears supplies as a battery replacement store. I highly doubt they had many folks flocking to Sears to get high-end batteries installed in their vehicles!

 

[rigtec]

QUESTION:

Are you running all this off the stock alternator?? 3448watts? Also, when you say "Stock Location", could I assume you mean with no mods to the battery tray?
:thanks:

EDIT: NM, I see what you did in your build thread

ANSWER:

"Absolutely - and it's actually 4048Watts RMS with the dual JL HD600's and the ARC KS2500.1 (2848W on the subs @ 1Ohm per the birth sheet, 600W on front midbass, 300W on front mid/tweets, and 300W for rear doors - all RMS ratings at the real impedances I'm running). 300 AMP ANL fuse feeds the amp rack...

Never a peep of problems from the stock alternator. The install (and electrical system) has gone literally untouched for 3 years now (save for cleaning the terminals and grounds once)..."

I'm not quite sure what you're implying here wrt 'adding' a (4KW i.e.) 300A 'Aftermarket' electrical load to a vehicle's charging system who's known 'FULL LOAD' electrical capacity is (1.7KW i.e.) 130 Amperes; this is a good way to have an engine room fire or at very least blow the 140A alternator ('Safety Shutdown') fuse! Your answer (above), seems to deny all Nippon-Denso eng'r design & published nomenclature recommendations, and grossly exaggerates the alternator's actual 'safe load' capability guidelines. The Denso 'hairpin' 130A unit packs a large quantity of enamel coated copper wire into it's two end-frames. It's small case platform is a 'Forced air' convection 'Heat-sink', designed to carry/remove a 130A electrical heat load.

When you add an 'EXCESSIVE' electrical load that the alternator's cooling system can no longer handle then the windings become saturated to the point that the enamel insulation begins to peel; exposing the bare copper and making coil shorting inevitable! Many of the folks here on this forum who have questions about stock alternator capability/capacity are inquiring because they're trying to determine if their stock 120A-130A alternator would be able to handle a few added aftermarket accessories and if so, how much. Based on your above post we should be able to add 'AT LEAST' a 300 amp aftermarket load without any adverse consequence:

Originally posted by Randyman "...Never a peep of problems from the stock alternator. The install (and electrical system) has gone literally untouched for 3 years now (save for cleaning the terminals and grounds once)..."

This is a very dangerous post! A severely overheated alternator may never display any signs of overheating 'before' it fails. The gentleman who was asking the question was trying to find out if there is a rule-of-thumb that he could follow or a known amount of 'add-on' current that could 'safely' be added to his 4Runner's stock electrical system. Telling him that your factory charging system can supply '4KW (300A @13.5V)' from the stock 130A alternator AND maintain full Toyota factory electrical system load function was misleading at best! This small case 'Nippon-Denso' platform is designed and built to develop a nominal 1.7KW (130A @13.5V) with a very small margin 'Built-in' for initial load start-up inrush (spike) current.

Even if you were to beef up 'the core' e.g., rotor, stator windings, pressed diode plate...etc, it's 'end-frame' (heat-sink) capacity to reject a 300A Heat Load (measured in btu's/hr) is "under-built" for the task. To publish an accurate gross electrical output figure, why not do this... Load up the alternator (to FULL CAP) using all audio system components, lighting systems, wipers (F & R), full blower, until the alternator can no longer hold 13V, then measure and document the amperage output (w/Inductive clamp meter) noting the point of failure. "When making claims such as you have above and the numbers don't add up then just bring your documents!" ...like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQ0xryKSpEg

Cheers

 

[rigtec]

My H.O. Alt is finally going on today lol.

Hi Vwright,

How'd you make out with your H.O. alternator install; did you get it up and running, are you anticipating any problems? ...just like to follow up on this kinda stuff :hat:

rig

 

[Vwright14]

Going strong, had one of my techs install it and he didn't have any issue's at all. Took about an hour and just ran a slightly smaller belt. I will still be running a big 3 wire upgrade and going to 1ga power wire back to my bigger amp in the coming months. But no issues with the current 1100w setup,no more lights dimming, no more noticeable voltage drop.

 

[Randyman...]

Rig - You probably know how an alternator will not put out more current than rated (voltage will naturally begin to sag once you hit the current limiting of the alternator at full-field excitation). When I'm "over-drawing" rated current (beyond 130amps), the Alternator is not asked to put out any more amperage - the additional amperage begins sinking from the battery as the battery is what is carrying the remainder of the load at the battery's voltage (yes, I do get voltage sag on hard hits, but all amps' PSU's are of the switching variety and make similar power regardless of input voltage / to a degree).

I actually had a similar setup in my 1987 4Runner (60 amp alternator / stereo system was north of 175 Amps) and in my 1999 Tacoma (90 amp alternator? stereo north of 250 amps) and never had issues there either for over a decade each vehicle (and my listening habits were MUCH more abusive as a younger pup!). I guess I'm just lucky? Or maybe the Alternators will work just fine in this scenario as I've seen over the past 25 years of Car Audio festivities...

I'll agree that constantly running an alternator at "full-field" will likely shorten its life. But I'm only tagging full-field on occasion. Not to mention, an Alternator's voltage regulation / field regulation is not generally quick enough to track dynamic current draws of music type loads (not until you start getting into constant / sine-wave type low-end demands). So the musically dynamic transients are largely invisible to the Alternator, and the alternator just ends up topping-off the battery as a more constant state charge.

25 years of reliable stock-alternator charging must speak for something? Only had a H.O alternator on one of my first mobile systems in a 1988 B2200 pickup (yuch! ) - and that was only because the power amps were all class A/B and really needed a stout 14.4v to achieve full power. Today's switching PSU's have negated my own needs for a stout 14.4v. So as long as the alternator's overall power output (total work) can match the equivalent steady-state RMS draw of the audio system (which as you know is HIGHLY dynamic and not steady-state at all!) and also feed the truck's electrical system, then my battery always stays charged.

3 years and counting on this particular T4R Alternator with the same monster system - never had a low battery...

 

[rigtec]

Randy,

You've just repeated the statements in your original post but I've already read your previous post and have no trouble deciphering your pov! If what you're offering were completely true there'd be no need for the H.O. alternator or anything beefier than the standard issue, stock output unit. I guess instead, we'd all be looking for innovative ways to mount our 'Multiple battery' systems w/Iso-switch power grids!

I fully understand the function of 'S.M.P.S.' and the differences between Class A, Class B, Class A/B, H and D'... 'but an alternator does not!' A Denso alternator doesn't have a high current flow warning monitor to the ECU or thermal limit sensors on it's output windings, only a 140A output fuse in our case. Nor does it know when to stop creating electrical current, so it'll keep right on feeding that load until the circuit opens; even if by catastrophic event! No matter how many batteries you can fit under the hood, you still have to feed them; and at the 'same rate' that you're bleeding them!

BTW: I started this thread to fill a void, which at the time was a lack of information about electrical systems and alternators on this vastly known advisory board. I happened to do a local forum search on the subject of 'Replacing the alternator on a 5'th Gen 4Runner' because I was going to replace mine but couldn't tell what kind of time was involved in doing the job but 'NOTHING' was coming up; but by the looks of it, it could a bi^ch! That's when I first learned that there was a lack of electrical system data here; a few guys had the electrical prints for the 4R but there was still a huge void on the subject.

Since that time I've been trying to provide as much information on the subject of the 4Runner's electrical system as possible. I just recently purchased the latest 4runner electrical library available 'by Mitchell'; which I think may be the 2014 model, until Mitchell can optain the 2016 drafts from Toyota when they become available! Now Randy: you may know, and I suspect that you do know, 'Exactly' how to manage your 'aftermarket' electrical load(s), and keep the battery charged, even though the system's 'accessory power ratio' is quite unbalanced.

There are however, folks here who are just learning about charging systems and beginning to understand the fundamental differences between the function of a 'Dual battery set-up', and a 'H.O. Generator system'. I'm being careful not to confuse them by your earlier statement, proclaiming that you're getting 300 amps from an alternator built to provide only 130 amps full field! 'Just to be clear:' You're running your high amperage load(s) on the very same premise as one having dual batteries because you're storing a large amount of current using a large CCA battery. But then partially depleting your stored supply of power 'As you drive' due to having an alternator that cannot provide that kind of current in real time. However, you are 'REPLENISHING' the battery when the high power consumption loads are either balanced, or turned off!

Again 'The Difference': The fundamental difference between your electrical system and one with a H.O. alternator is (hypothetically speaking): If you left your truck IDLING overnight with the audio system blasting, headlights on, LED bar and high speed blower running, your truck's electrical system would starve then shut-down because the load is larger than the supply. The truck with the High current alternator (all things being equal), when tested the very same way would still have a fully charged battery when tested the next day because the supply is larger than the load!

:usa2: rig! :usa2:

 

[rigtec]

Hey folks,

Here's an article that I thought brings some clarity to understanding some of the differences between some of the aftermarket alternators that are out there begging you to buy them. But before you do... perhaps do a little reading on the subject of The good, the bad, and the REAL BAD overwound so called... "High Output" alternators on the market today; They are 'NOT' all the same!!, "take a look:
XP Series « DC Power Engineering Blog ...and cheers, hope you enjoy the alternator info! :yo: riggy!

 

[Randyman...]

If what you're offering were completely true there'd be no need for the H.O. alternator or anything beefier than the standard issue, stock output unit.

"What I'm Offering" is the balance of a dynamic current draw vs a lower but constant re-charge current. How do you explain my 300 Amp (dynamic load) audio system being just fine on the stock alternator then? And my previous 25 years of similar configurations in other Toyota trucks? It all comes down to actual work done over time.

The additional current beyond what the alternator can provide at 12.5v or so will be sourced form the battery. The battery almost acts as a HUGE stiffening capacitor for the required current. As the alternator's voltage naturally sags to around the resting state of the battery (12.5v or so), the remainder of the current begins pulling from the battery's "reservoir". The alternator then re-charges the extra current the battery just provided (remember - music and thus current draw is extremely dynamic - which gives the circuit plenty of "breaks" in the current draws to easily top-off the battery).

Also think about what happens when you offer someone a jump-start. Your vehicle is running (alternator is charging), and then you get the dead car's starter to turnover from your "good" Alternator + Battery combined. We know the alternator is not going to provide ample current @ 14v to make that happen - the remainder of the current (once the Alternator's voltage naturally sags to the resting voltage of the battery) will be sourced from the battery. The dynamic load of a high-current audio system is no different.

I fully understand the function of 'S.M.P.S.' and the differences between Class A, Class B, Class A/B, H and D'... 'but an alternator does not!'

Of course it doesen't - My point in mentioning Amplifier Power Supply Topologies was in regard to not needing a "stout 14.4v" for a modern switching-PSU amplifier to obtain full rated output power. Our Yota's are lucky to run at 13.4v once the alternator reaches operating temperature. An amplifier with a linear PSU (like my old Rockford Fosgate POWER1000 that is sitting in my closet) will obviously be affected by input voltage - and that was the only time I ever ran a H.O. alternator (for the stout 14.4 voltage that those older amps needed to reach their rated power specs). Now that I run amps that use switch-mode PSU's, it does not matter that the B+ voltage can sag to around 12V on hard hits - the amps still put out full rated power.

No matter how many batteries you can fit under the hood, you still have to feed them; and at the 'same rate' that you're bleeding them!

And that is my point exactly! The stereo system is a DYNAMIC LOAD - not a constant 300 amp draw. I can experience 300 amp hits (with associated voltage sag to around 12V), but those are by no means sustained. The overall "work" needed for this 300 amp system to operate at full "music" (read that as "dynamic") power is in reality nowhere near 300 amps sustained.

If you left your truck IDLING overnight with the audio system blasting, headlights on, LED bar and high speed blower running, your truck's electrical system would starve then shut-down because the load is larger than the supply. The truck with the High current alternator (all things being equal), when tested the very same way would still have a fully charged battery when tested the next day because the supply is larger than the load!

Of course! This is common sense. Your faucet needs to flow enough water to keep your sink full based off how quickly the water is being drained. The flow of water from the faucet is the alternator's current, the volume of water in the sink is the reserve capacity of your battery, and the drain is the current draw. And that is my point - Audio System is a dynamic current draw - not a constant drain. Unless you listen to sustained sine-waves at 30Hz - then the draw is astonishingly dynamic, and the actual "work" required is far less than a sustained 300 amps. The 130amp alternator keeps my battery in a happy state, and has for the last 3 years.

At some point, you would indeed begin to approach the average/constant current the alternator is capable of (and the sink would begin draining and eventually be empty!), but seeing that I haven't gotten there with my extremely lopsided dynamic current-draw vs. constant current-replenishment setup indicates you'd need to be pretty insane for this to become an issue with dynamic loads (such as an audio system that is enjoyed below hard clipping and not used to listen to continuous full-power sine-waves for "fun" ).

If you are running 130amps of lights or other "constant draw" accessories - then that is a whole different ballgame entirely, and all of your statements are 100% accurate. That is not the scenario I'm in, and have never suggested this would not be the case for constant-draw situations.

I've also mentioned in the past that a "plus" for an H.O. alternator will be quicker re-charge times for deep-cycle applications (fridges, and stuff like that). Again - this does not apply to me as I never drain my sink enough for this to be an issue with the stock alternator

I guess clarification was needed. Real world results speak for themselves...

 

[rigtec]

Real world results speak for themselves...

"...is that why you've provided No Test?"

IF you'd rather believe "YOUR THEORY" rather than "Actual proof" well, I guess that's your right. I asked you in a previous post to put up the evidence; Connect a volt meter and an Inductive (Clamp) amp meter' (as in the video that I've provided), and run a combination of your Constant and dynamic loads Full Field and let's see what the meter's "Opinion" is on the matter; as I have done at the top of this thread:

...no test, just more techno-jargon! ...Just what I thought!

I'm done with this silly conversation Randy;
time to move on! Peace to you!

 

[Randyman...]

Any cheaper suggestions on where I could pick up an inductive DC Ammeter that is good for 300Amps or so? I'd likely buy two and place one on the 1/0 cable to the audio system to read total current pulled by the system, and then put one on the alternator's B+ wire to see what the alternator is sourcing when the system is pulling

In the meanwhile - Just a cost-free thought experiment for you: How does engine RPM affect the alternator's ability to produce current and voltage? If the alternator can theoretically produce unlimited current at proper 13.5v, why does engine RPM have any effect on the amount of power an alternator can put out?

 

[Randyman...]

Looks like any trustworthy inductive ammeters are not cheap. Anyone have one to lend?

Rig - Have you had a chance to read up on how you can dynamically surpass an alternator's current capacity without asking the alternator to surpass its maximum output? The 140amp internal fuse will never blow in my setup because the alternator is never asked to produce more than its rated 140Amps.

Here is a link you might find useful:

VOLTAGE REGULATOR, ALTERNATOR and BATTERY OPERATION

Specifically:

When the electrical system needs more power than the alternator can produce, for a short time, then the battery is already connected to the system and the battery will contribute the needed power.

So unless I drive around listening to sustained 30Hz sinewaves at full power (which I don't do), the 300 Amp "max draw" is extremely dynamic in nature (sometimes faster than the alternator's regulation can even respond).

Power-amp headroom and clean un-clipped power all add up to an extremely dynamic current draw from the system - which the stock Alternator is easily able to accommodate as I know from driving the truck everyday for the last 3 years in this state (and other Toyotas for 20+ years in similar states). This is a real-world result - not a theory on paper...

Math on paper is nice (but not always the correct result in every scenario - as your 1/4 wavelength math in the other thread would demonstrate - your math says "OK" ; real-world experience says "NO WAY!") - but I prefer the first-hand experience I get everyday to back any claims I make. I live and breathe audio at every turn, and have made many hands-on discoveries over the years that a theory book could never teach (but theory obviously has a place in addition to real-world application and observation)...

 

[comp_engineer]

[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] - awesome post, thank you.
I bought the same cigarette lighter battery/alternator gauge after reading your post.
Un-related to 4runner, the gauge shows the battery in my daily driver is weak (11.6V after sitting in garage overnight at ~40degF). Charging system seems good, gauge reads 14.2V with green light at full electrical load above 1500RPM.
The battery in the car is less than 2 years old, and had never seen cold weather before this winter (was in CA, moved to CT).
Is the answer as simple as the battery is weak prematurely?

 

[Randyman...]

[MENTION=83083]rigtec[/MENTION] - awesome post, thank you.
I bought the same cigarette lighter battery/alternator gauge after reading your post.
Un-related to 4runner, the gauge shows the battery in my daily driver is weak (11.6V after sitting in garage overnight at ~40degF). Charging system seems good, gauge reads 14.2V with green light at full electrical load above 1500RPM.
The battery in the car is less than 2 years old, and had never seen cold weather before this winter (was in CA, moved to CT).
Is the answer as simple as the battery is weak prematurely?

I'm not Rigtec, but I'd first check your battery terminals and battery ground for corrosion.

The fact that the Alternator is able to bring the system up to proper voltage indicates the Alternator itself appears to be OK while running all of your vehicles' accessories (and their associated loads).

If resting battery voltage is 11.5v, either it is going bad (can get it checked for free at most Auto Parts stores) or the terminals/connections are corroding. I'd bet on a bad battery. It is possible that an Alternator could be overcharging your battery and pre-maturely causing it to sulfate and die - but that is not exactly a common issue...

Do you run any constant draw loads while the vehicle is off? Fridge or something like that? This will basically cycle a "Starting Battery" more deeply than it is designed for, and will also cause pre-mature death. A deep cycle battery is designed for such drain cycles with the trade-off of less available CCA's for cranking...

 

[adam.friedman.33]

I too have low amperage with the same tool. I have been charging the battery every night and while running I get an average 13.4v. Battery is original Toyota and may be going.

 

[Randyman...]

I too have low amperage with the same tool. I have been charging the battery every night and while running I get an average 13.4v. Battery is original Toyota and may be going.

You likely mean "low voltage"

I'd also recommend getting your battery tested for free at most any auto store. Will put any doubts and guesswork to rest pretty quick...