Hellamatic
New member
How about we change it to "Tire clearance safety zone expansion"?
5th Gen 4Runner Safety
- Thread starter 1engineer
- Start date
How about we change it to "Tire clearance safety zone expansion"?
Well written, sometimes people do things with out completely thinking about it. The fact will always remain if you change something it will take away from something.
I take very few things seriously but the safety of my family is one of those. I do have a question has Toyota looked into that safety foam yet, it could also be used for fire suppression?
I take very few things seriously but the safety of my family is one of those. I do have a question has Toyota looked into that safety foam yet, it could also be used for fire suppression?
oljedi11950
New member
:rtfm::wow2::biggrin2:
First, everything that 1Engineer said. Dead nuts on, per usual.
Second, I've made a pretty nice living as a degreed safety professional for a few decades now, and I'm driving 4Runner #3, uninterrupted since 1992. Draw your own conclusions.
Third, the only mod I've made that has any hope of enhancing safety is the addition of a set of bolt-on sliders, and that would come into play only in a side impact.....with unknown results +/- re: safety. I think it might help to a marginal degree, but the reality is they just look cool. I would certainly never chop anything that came from the factory. Ever.
Finally, despite my ownership track record, on the whole, a tight-handling mid-size or larger sedan with modern design and safety features is probably as safe and arguably safer because it provides a better opportunity for crash avoidance paired with good crash survivability.
After all of that, I don't see my 4Runner going away any time soon.
Second, I've made a pretty nice living as a degreed safety professional for a few decades now, and I'm driving 4Runner #3, uninterrupted since 1992. Draw your own conclusions.
Third, the only mod I've made that has any hope of enhancing safety is the addition of a set of bolt-on sliders, and that would come into play only in a side impact.....with unknown results +/- re: safety. I think it might help to a marginal degree, but the reality is they just look cool. I would certainly never chop anything that came from the factory. Ever.
Finally, despite my ownership track record, on the whole, a tight-handling mid-size or larger sedan with modern design and safety features is probably as safe and arguably safer because it provides a better opportunity for crash avoidance paired with good crash survivability.
After all of that, I don't see my 4Runner going away any time soon.
Good post.
I was involved in a accident with a fatality in 2010. I was driving a 3rd Gen 4Runner and a young lady was driving a Ford Focus and we hit head-on at ~60mph. The mass of my 4Runner probably saved my life. I was able to get out of my car after the accident and sit on the guard rail and I think she was dead on impact. Even though it was not my fault I still have to drive the same highway to work everyday and think about it often. If you have never been in an accident like that then you don't realize how fast they happen. I only saw a red flash out of the corner of my eye prior to the impact.
BlackWorksInc
New member
The main thing to consider is that not all safety items in a vehicle are designed to keep you safe.
For example:
-Front end height/shape/design from a safety aspect is typically ruled by pedestrian crash standards and has more to do with making the vehicle "safer" hitting a pedestrian on the road than protecting you.
-Crumple Zones are designed for a dual purpose, the first being to absorb impact energy and prevent it from transferring into the occupants; the second to reduce impact energy imparted into the victim object/vehicle (less energy imparted roughly means more likely you haven't seriously killed or injured the people in the other car.
-Designed Failure Points are items which work with Crumple Zones, but are in most simple terms; parts designed to break. i.e. engine mounts are designed to break in such a way as to typically push the drive train under the chassis; suspension components are designed to break ideally in specific points before the frame so as to move components around the cabin. (Watch crash videos to see how crumple zones and designed failure points work to prevent say an engine sitting in your lap in a crash.)
Now the above examples are extremely watered down, to go into detail would probably confuse most everyone besides the nerds who think about this junk. But what does this really mean for you as a vehicle enthusiast? Well lets look at those three examples in comparison with common mods:
-Adding a full metal bumper will defeat the ideas behind the design of the hood and front end protecting pedestrians and will greatly affect how the vehicle will crumple in an accident. The result may be that the vehicle will survive a high velocity impact in a much more complete manner (see http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/179822-maybe-end-mebe4runnings-reign-4.html for examples), but will increase danger to pedestrians and vehicles struck by your modified vehicle. It will also impart greater impact energy into the occupants which might mean an increased possibility of inertia type trauma (i.e. squishy organs being slammed against the bony cavity that is your chest more violently than intended.)
-Adding reinforcement to the engine mounts, radiator to frame cross member, ect. might result in components no longer crumpling or failing as designed and could increase impact energy and direct components in undesired ways in an impact (i.e. an impact hard enough to bend the metal bumper and push the engine back may not cause the engine to shove under the cab but rather into it because of reinforced mounts.)
-Adding sliders and performing a "Body Mount Chop" may result in allowing the suspension to break away (as possibly designed) in an impact and rather than deflect outwards before the cabin, it gets shoved into the cabin; sliders may provide protection in this matter or act as a "cage" and prevent the components from pushing outward as the suspension moves deeper into the cabin from the lack of substantial body mount.
Bottom line? Vehicle safety is about compromise, it always has been. A manufacturer could build a HUMVEE style vehicle with a suspended harness seating arrangement that results in better occupant safety while allowing the vehicle to basically smash through a brick wall almost unscathed; it's not hard the military industrial complex makes it money on that idea. But it would most likely kill the family in the minivan that got in your way and/or be so ridiculous no one would want to buy it (well... I would probably.) As a result all vehicles are designed to keep the people in and out of the vehicle safe, when you modify your vehicle you need to consider that you are now playing with a balance that was carefully engineered by Toyota in this case for that vehicle to operate in day to day life.
Just something to consider...
For example:
-Front end height/shape/design from a safety aspect is typically ruled by pedestrian crash standards and has more to do with making the vehicle "safer" hitting a pedestrian on the road than protecting you.
-Crumple Zones are designed for a dual purpose, the first being to absorb impact energy and prevent it from transferring into the occupants; the second to reduce impact energy imparted into the victim object/vehicle (less energy imparted roughly means more likely you haven't seriously killed or injured the people in the other car.
-Designed Failure Points are items which work with Crumple Zones, but are in most simple terms; parts designed to break. i.e. engine mounts are designed to break in such a way as to typically push the drive train under the chassis; suspension components are designed to break ideally in specific points before the frame so as to move components around the cabin. (Watch crash videos to see how crumple zones and designed failure points work to prevent say an engine sitting in your lap in a crash.)
Now the above examples are extremely watered down, to go into detail would probably confuse most everyone besides the nerds who think about this junk. But what does this really mean for you as a vehicle enthusiast? Well lets look at those three examples in comparison with common mods:
-Adding a full metal bumper will defeat the ideas behind the design of the hood and front end protecting pedestrians and will greatly affect how the vehicle will crumple in an accident. The result may be that the vehicle will survive a high velocity impact in a much more complete manner (see http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/179822-maybe-end-mebe4runnings-reign-4.html for examples), but will increase danger to pedestrians and vehicles struck by your modified vehicle. It will also impart greater impact energy into the occupants which might mean an increased possibility of inertia type trauma (i.e. squishy organs being slammed against the bony cavity that is your chest more violently than intended.)
-Adding reinforcement to the engine mounts, radiator to frame cross member, ect. might result in components no longer crumpling or failing as designed and could increase impact energy and direct components in undesired ways in an impact (i.e. an impact hard enough to bend the metal bumper and push the engine back may not cause the engine to shove under the cab but rather into it because of reinforced mounts.)
-Adding sliders and performing a "Body Mount Chop" may result in allowing the suspension to break away (as possibly designed) in an impact and rather than deflect outwards before the cabin, it gets shoved into the cabin; sliders may provide protection in this matter or act as a "cage" and prevent the components from pushing outward as the suspension moves deeper into the cabin from the lack of substantial body mount.
Bottom line? Vehicle safety is about compromise, it always has been. A manufacturer could build a HUMVEE style vehicle with a suspended harness seating arrangement that results in better occupant safety while allowing the vehicle to basically smash through a brick wall almost unscathed; it's not hard the military industrial complex makes it money on that idea. But it would most likely kill the family in the minivan that got in your way and/or be so ridiculous no one would want to buy it (well... I would probably.) As a result all vehicles are designed to keep the people in and out of the vehicle safe, when you modify your vehicle you need to consider that you are now playing with a balance that was carefully engineered by Toyota in this case for that vehicle to operate in day to day life.
Just something to consider...
dubveeT4R
New member
I maintain that the inability to use anything in navigation while in motion creates a safety risk instead of preventing one. I assume most drivers would try to program guidance before leaving, while sitting at a train, stoplight, etcetera. However, in a rush most of us will get on the road headed the right direction and then start looking for directions. Be honest, how many people really need directions out of their own subdivision or driveway?! So instead of selecting a nice open stretch of no traffic to program the gps for directions, I'm supposed use voice commands to get directions. That might be fine, except the vehicle it too noisy above 20mph to recognize voice commands to input a detailed address that it doesn't already know. I can't tell you how many times I've tried this and it's nothing but an exercise in futility, the voice recognition is crap above 20mph, and worthless above 40. I can't even get it to properly change a radio station while cruising straight on the interstate. :redbrick:
So now I have pull over to the shoulder and stop to put in the address (creating a hazard for other drivers). Well that's not going to happen. So instead I grab my phone and have to pull up the app, and get directions loaded into it. So instead of being an attentive driver who's occasionally pushing an easy to find button on the dash while looking out as much as possible, I've now become an frustrated (can't use features I paid for), pissed off (features which are supposed to help don't work), and distracted driver who's got only one hand available while holding the phone trying to type on the tiny little phone keyboard which I'm holding much lower than the factory nav unit (means I'm looking away from the road for longer periods of time). Safety feature? No, it's an anti-lawsuit measure. Toyo made it so that drivers aren't distracted by factory vehicle features while driving, and it's the driver's choice to use a mobile device while in motion.
I can't wait to dump the factory head unit which requires a complicated box and expensive box to modulate a signal in order to override it's "safety" features. Soldering an aftermarket's head unit parking brake sensor wire back to ground is a much simpler although more expensive solution. Although in doing so I could also get a head unit that runs all Android apps instead of a few selected apps the manufacturer decides are important. This upgrade will be secondary to ditching thesafety hazard of factory tires! I'm not going to start on those as my 4Runner loses traction on dry pavement routinely!
You seem angry. Try speaking your voice commands in a nice, calm voice - it works for me. I'm also curious as to how you're losing traction "routinely" on dry pavement with your OEM tires. It sounds like a tire swap isn't going to make your vehicle (you?) any safer.
Ron4RNevada
New member
Amazing how many divergent views can be generated on some of these simple threads.
wfo9
New member
What? Divergent views on politics, government, religion, public safety vs freedom of choice?
Combine that with pure speculation on both ends of the spectrum.
Nothing simple about it.
KostyaK
New member
One more point to consider for everybody. I work as an engineer (not in automotive industry) and I know it is a competitive world out there.
With new CAD and other technology available for engineers to use the parts are designed to perform as they should with a reasonable safety factor. No company will make a specific part three times stronger (and thus more expensive) than it needs to be. It will be designed to be as cost efficient as possible to still meet accepted safety/performance standards.
While some of the members here are quite knowledgeable none of us have the tools and experience to predict all the loading scenarios Toyota has considered - modify factory components at your own risk. This includes tuning and increasing the power output in any way. What may seem a no-brainer to you can result in a sudden unpredictable failure during a loading scenario you have not considered.
With new CAD and other technology available for engineers to use the parts are designed to perform as they should with a reasonable safety factor. No company will make a specific part three times stronger (and thus more expensive) than it needs to be. It will be designed to be as cost efficient as possible to still meet accepted safety/performance standards.
While some of the members here are quite knowledgeable none of us have the tools and experience to predict all the loading scenarios Toyota has considered - modify factory components at your own risk. This includes tuning and increasing the power output in any way. What may seem a no-brainer to you can result in a sudden unpredictable failure during a loading scenario you have not considered.
Friggin Idiot
Senior Member
Not angry as much as frustrated. $40k for a vehicle that tells me it can't do something because it isn't safe? Kind of like buying a Ferrari that has a gps computer which starts braking when you go over 80mph!
We all have our own levels of acceptable risk that we undertake, some have tolerances which are higher than others. I wouldn't dare use the nav in traffic or trying to merge onto the interstate. But while cruising down the interstate in light traffic I feel comfortable pressing a few buttons at a time repeatedly to get the nav loaded. My passenger should also be able to completely operate my nav system without me having to stop the vehicle. The fact it's not tied into something as simple as the passenger airbag switch baffles me.
I talk for a living over VHF/UHF radio, so I know just how easy it is to have a bad mic, or background noise ruin a transmission. You should try to understand the other side of the radio when it's a Chinese student pilot who barely speaks English while he's flying a Cessna at full throttle with the windows open! Voice command would be near useless for him in a stopped 4Runner, let alone in motion. I've tried any manner of things but the mic only works reliably for me when I'm stopped or doing <20mph. The fact that I can press a button on my phone and use it's voice recognition from it's cradle mounted in the passenger footwell and have it work leads me to believe it's more to do with either placement or a bad microphone. Anyone know where the microphone is actually placed?
As for the traction, I'm a spirited driver who regularly tests the limits of the vehicle so that I know where they are. There are some places where I lose traction as a result of pavement worn smooth, others that routinely have sand/dirt on the road. Routinely losing traction in these places is a matter of road condition and not the tires. The factory Bridgestones are fine for going and stopping in a straight line, but do poorly under lateral loads. When I lose traction it's always in relation to a turn, fast or slow. The fast ones are usually just a quick slide over until I let off the throttle and it regains traction. The slow ones are a little more obvious, and usually under acceleration with traction control and tire squeal. I'm also disappointed with the excessive amount of tire squeal that's prevalent around turns in parking lots even when under idle power.
Keep in mind that my vehicle before this was a 2002 Subaru Legacy GT that was glued to the road. I always paid for a well rated all season grand touring tire for that car, and was only disappointed when the snow got above 3" accumulation. The Bridgestones actually surprised me in the deep snow, but that still doesn't make up for their poor lateral load properties.
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2014 Warthog
New member
The reason for it shouldn't be baffling at all.
I'd frankly rather NOT have every driver on the road trying to type into their navi or watch movies around me. 99% of them would take you out in a minute by not having a single care about how and when they used it.. For people that care and are willing to use it responsibly, (You, me, etc) a simple $5-$10 mod will turn that "safety feature" off.
adoihcj
New member
I always drove with the mindset that I could avoid most car accidents by paying attention and proactively avoiding potential causes of accidents (mostly inattentive drivers). Last Christmas morning, I was driving my Mazda3 up to the local ski hill with my best friend. It was a sunny day after a good storm, and the snow on the road had largely melted, except around this blind corner that was in the shade. As I approached the corner, a suburban was sliding sideways downhill into oncoming traffic (me) at about 35 mph. I was under complete control of my vehicle (solid snow tires) as I looked to the right and saw the cement barricade to prevent cars from going over the cliff; looked to the left and realized I wouldn't have time to avoid being smashed. By the time the suburban hit me, I was almost completely stopped. The driver was able to straighten out a little just before hitting me head-on at the front left of my car. The suburban rammed through the top part of my hood/engine compartment and almost reached the windshield/cabin on my side. Both of the airbags went off but absent some minor whiplash, both my friend and I were ok. Based on the empty beer cans and the smell of alcohol on his breath, the driver probably had a morning of moderate boozing. He gave me his insurance information and a videotapped admission of guilt, but for some reason he didn't want to stick around for the cops to get there (at least he called his insurance that day and admitted fault). That same week, I bought my 4Runner. Sometimes I wonder if I would have been ok if the Suburban had a lift or bumper.
Here are some after crash pics of both vehicles:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6nngK1IhkPFVG9EZng0Vnp3RFU/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6nngK1IhkPFUzh0N1MyWXlNMFE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6nngK1IhkPFUjNIS3ZVWWROMmc/view?usp=sharing
I have the same color Mazda3 (Liquid Silver Metallic) and our 4Runners are similar. Feel like I know you.
Anyway, glad you came out of the accident okay.
Ron4RNevada
New member
A bit on the subject/a bit off the subject:
On my Land Rover the horn buttons were exactly where the Radio Mode and Telephone controls are on the 4Runner.
I sure wish Toyota would trash those two items (that I will never use) and put the horn buttons there. Finding the center of the airbag pad where horn button is takes too long when the a-hole in the F350 Super Duty is trying to pass me 3 feet into my lane!
On my Land Rover the horn buttons were exactly where the Radio Mode and Telephone controls are on the 4Runner.
I sure wish Toyota would trash those two items (that I will never use) and put the horn buttons there. Finding the center of the airbag pad where horn button is takes too long when the a-hole in the F350 Super Duty is trying to pass me 3 feet into my lane!
That is the reason for mods, to make your house truck work for you.
I hit the stock skids yesterday they seem to have held up, I hope I will check better after I get the mud off. I should have my sliders in Jun or July.
My whole point on this is I will add better bumpers and skids when I get out the the warranty, because that is what I use my truck for and the reason I picked this one. After the armor I will probably have to get the suspension worked on to bring it back to factory specks in ride and height. I need to find a professional that understands I don't want to drive a skyscraper when the time comes I know I have no clue how to do it right, that's one of the uses of this tool we have in social networks, like this form. Overall a lot of people do things to their whips just because they can with out a overall vision of what they are using/doing it for. On top of this they don't even know how to do it right, or have the money to get it done right. This is why we have to take our rides in to get checked out by uncle sugar before we can drive them on the roads, for a safety check, in states they don't do this we see the results, stretched tiers, Bama cars, 4 foot lifts, ect... If this was their own life I would have no problem and just giggle when I see them get the dumb ass gold medal in passing, but it's not it's the safety of my family and your family. I am not willing to put that at stake because someone wants to look cool, and is to stupid to use a torque wrench.
