5th GEN Hydraulic Power Steering System vs. Electric Power Steering System

[NorthwoodsRunner]

I have an electric power steering (EPS) system on Honda Civic, Accord and Toyota Camry. These three cars, with an EPS system, track straight and are competent but the only issue is that the EPS system attenuates the road feel and feedback. My dad's 2006 Accord with a hydraulic power steering (HPS) has much better road feel than my 2013 Accord with an EPS. You would think that T4R would be more numb and vague given its truck platform and size but surprisingly the T4R with a HPS system gives much better road feedback and feeling that my three sedans. I am sure T4R will move to an EPS system at some point maybe starting with the 6th GEN T4R. There are advantages of EPS but the road feeling is not one of them based on my direct observations. I hope T4R either keeps HPS or advance EPS to maintain the road feel. I am very happy with my 2016 T4R road/steering feedback and feel.

 

[gm350reratliff]

I would rather have the hydraulic system as it's proven. My F150 had the EPS and while I didn't have any issues with it, quite a few people have had issues with them. I also had a GM car years ago with EPS and I did have issues with the steering.

 

[Yoderguy]

Our 08 highlander has EPS and its just too soft and effortless for my taste. My wife however loves it. It's hers so that's all that matters really.

 

[NorthwoodsRunner]

Our 08 highlander has EPS and its just too soft and effortless for my taste. My wife however loves it. It's hers so that's all that matters really.

EPS is very easy and good but it just lacks the road feedback. That is my main complaint. I am supersized the 3rd GEN Tacoma hasn't moved to EPS. I have to say doing 80-85mph on T4R is too easy and effortless. Only thing that worries me is that doing 70-80mph on T4R feels like doing 60-70mph. I have to watch it before getting a big speeding ticket.

 

[HTXpro]

Yep. I was pleasantly surprised to find out 4Runners still had hydraulic steering when I first started looking at them. My ONE complaint of my S2000 is its videogame-like steering. It's extremely precise, but I have absolutely no idea how much front grip I have. That said, modern performance oriented EPS systems have gotten a lot better.

 

[Vinsil]

Had a '12 Camry, did not care for the EPS at all. Felt light and uninspiring for sure.

I think this gen will be the last of the "old" tech people.

 

[NYT4R]

Against The Grain

I am going against the grain here. I absolutely HATE the HPS on my 5th Gen T4R Trail. To the point that I was going to sell it the 4R with less then 3k miles on it. The damn steering was/is so tight that I have tennis elbow AND golfers elbow....basically tendonitis in both arms top and bottom. Made me wish I had the 2006 T4R back that I traded in for the 5th gen. I got several estimates from automotive buyers and from Ford and Jeep just so I can get rid of my 5th gen.

I went to the dealer 4 times complaining that the steering was too tight and my arms are killing me. I got the standard "go to" answer....everything is in spec. They even had the national field service tech pay a visit to my dealership and of course, no trouble found. OMG!

Well, for FFS, this brand new straight from Japan 5th Gen is the only auto in my life that caused me pain in my arms just to steer it. I never experienced anything like this in my life.

I went to the doctor to get cortisone shots in both elbows and a med to reduce swelling.

I knew that the preload needs to be backed off but I was unable to do it because the lock nut is VERY difficult to get to while laying under the vehicle and I found out that the lock nut isnt a standard 6 sided nut.

I brought the 4R to the mechanic at the end of my neighborhood and he had backed off the preload by 3-5 degrees 4 times. He had to get the proper socket to loosen up the lock nut. AND ITS STILL HEAVY! I actually need it done one more time at least. And I pay him to do it each time.

While I was trying to sell my 4R, I drove the Explorer and the Grand Cherokee and the Durango and none of these had heavy steering. I dont know which vehicles aside from the Explorer have EPS, but it was a nice comfy steering experience. Even my 2006 T4R was nice to drive. It was almost like that had EPS.

So far I have 7k miles on the 4R and I am still not convinced that I am going to keep it. But I put a beautiful front grill overlay on it, changed the H11 lights and fog lights to HID, put Firestone Destination LE2's on it, a KandN Air Filter to help increase petal response and changed all the interior lights to LEDS. After putting all this time, money and effort into this vehicle it made me wish I hadnt because my driving experience has been quite negative, starting with the HPS. I would have liked to dump it and get on with my life without the 5th gen. Its the reason I halted modding out the 4R. I wanted to upgrade the sound system and change the shocks and struts to stop the lean. But I have done enough considering I may still get away from this vehicle. I even checked out how to sell it on this forum.

So I started asking people I see with the 5th gens about their steering effort and NO ONE, even the ladies dont have a problem steering. I am up to having conversations with 7 people. So I watched people on youTube giving their opinions on the 5th gen while driving and they turn the steering wheel with no problem, with ease. Theres one guy with skinny arms and he turns the wheel like it has EPS.

So now I have been adjusting my seat to get better access to the wheel so I can steer easier and now I have tendonitis in my right knee. And the wheel doesnt turn any easier no matter how I have the seat adjusted.

I must sound like a total wimp but I can assure you that my arms and legs are not the problem. LOL.

So in my opinion, I would have LOVED if Toyota had put EPS in this 4R.

And just as an added note, this 4R tracks the road like I am driving on railroad rails. Even though Toyotas Field Service Tech slightly changed the alignment. Also, I would have appreciated if the top of the inside of the door wasnt so far away. Theres no place to rest my elbow. But it doesnt matter, I cant make slight highway adjustments or make turns without using full use of both hands and arms.

So if anyone has actually gotten through reading all of this rant and opinion, does anyone have any advise? Any mechanics out there? I would love to hear from you. I wish the gas petal was a little easier to press down as well.

 

[EEEliminator]

I am going against the grain here. I absolutely HATE the HPS on my 5th Gen T4R Trail. To the point that I was going to sell it the 4R with less then 3k miles on it. The damn steering was/is so tight that I have tennis elbow AND golfers elbow....basically tendonitis in both arms top and bottom. Made me wish I had the 2006 T4R back that I traded in for the 5th gen. I got several estimates from automotive buyers and from Ford and Jeep just so I can get rid of my 5th gen.

I went to the dealer 4 times complaining that the steering was too tight and my arms are killing me. I got the standard "go to" answer....everything is in spec. They even had the national field service tech pay a visit to my dealership and of course, no trouble found. OMG!

Well, for FFS, this brand new straight from Japan 5th Gen is the only auto in my life that caused me pain in my arms just to steer it. I never experienced anything like this in my life.

I went to the doctor to get cortisone shots in both elbows and a med to reduce swelling.

I knew that the preload needs to be backed off but I was unable to do it because the lock nut is VERY difficult to get to while laying under the vehicle and I found out that the lock nut isnt a standard 6 sided nut.

I brought the 4R to the mechanic at the end of my neighborhood and he had backed off the preload by 3-5 degrees 4 times. He had to get the proper socket to loosen up the lock nut. AND ITS STILL HEAVY! I actually need it done one more time at least. And I pay him to do it each time.

While I was trying to sell my 4R, I drove the Explorer and the Grand Cherokee and the Durango and none of these had heavy steering. I dont know which vehicles aside from the Explorer have EPS, but it was a nice comfy steering experience. Even my 2006 T4R was nice to drive. It was almost like that had EPS.

So far I have 7k miles on the 4R and I am still not convinced that I am going to keep it. But I put a beautiful front grill overlay on it, changed the H11 lights and fog lights to HID, put Firestone Destination LE2's on it, a KandN Air Filter to help increase petal response and changed all the interior lights to LEDS. After putting all this time, money and effort into this vehicle it made me wish I hadnt because my driving experience has been quite negative, starting with the HPS. I would have liked to dump it and get on with my life without the 5th gen. Its the reason I halted modding out the 4R. I wanted to upgrade the sound system and change the shocks and struts to stop the lean. But I have done enough considering I may still get away from this vehicle. I even checked out how to sell it on this forum.

So I started asking people I see with the 5th gens about their steering effort and NO ONE, even the ladies dont have a problem steering. I am up to having conversations with 7 people. So I watched people on youTube giving their opinions on the 5th gen while driving and they turn the steering wheel with no problem, with ease. Theres one guy with skinny arms and he turns the wheel like it has EPS.

So now I have been adjusting my seat to get better access to the wheel so I can steer easier and now I have tendonitis in my right knee. And the wheel doesnt turn any easier no matter how I have the seat adjusted.

I must sound like a total wimp but I can assure you that my arms and legs are not the problem. LOL.

So in my opinion, I would have LOVED if Toyota had put EPS in this 4R.

And just as an added note, this 4R tracks the road like I am driving on railroad rails. Even though Toyotas Field Service Tech slightly changed the alignment. Also, I would have appreciated if the top of the inside of the door wasnt so far away. Theres no place to rest my elbow. But it doesnt matter, I cant make slight highway adjustments or make turns without using full use of both hands and arms.

So if anyone has actually gotten through reading all of this rant and opinion, does anyone have any advise? Any mechanics out there? I would love to hear from you. I wish the gas petal was a little easier to press down as well.

Sounds like your issue isn't necessarily EPS vs HPS, you just don't like the amount of power assist. I personally prefer road feel with less power assist, it is a matter of personal preference though.

 

[Vinsil]

I am going against the grain here. I absolutely HATE the HPS on my 5th Gen T4R Trail. To the point that I was going to sell it the 4R with less then 3k miles on it. The damn steering was/is so tight that I have tennis elbow AND golfers elbow....basically tendonitis in both arms top and bottom. Made me wish I had the 2006 T4R back that I traded in for the 5th gen. I got several estimates from automotive buyers and from Ford and Jeep just so I can get rid of my 5th gen.

I went to the dealer 4 times complaining that the steering was too tight and my arms are killing me. I got the standard "go to" answer....everything is in spec. They even had the national field service tech pay a visit to my dealership and of course, no trouble found. OMG!

Well, for FFS, this brand new straight from Japan 5th Gen is the only auto in my life that caused me pain in my arms just to steer it. I never experienced anything like this in my life.

I went to the doctor to get cortisone shots in both elbows and a med to reduce swelling.

I knew that the preload needs to be backed off but I was unable to do it because the lock nut is VERY difficult to get to while laying under the vehicle and I found out that the lock nut isnt a standard 6 sided nut.

I brought the 4R to the mechanic at the end of my neighborhood and he had backed off the preload by 3-5 degrees 4 times. He had to get the proper socket to loosen up the lock nut. AND ITS STILL HEAVY! I actually need it done one more time at least. And I pay him to do it each time.

While I was trying to sell my 4R, I drove the Explorer and the Grand Cherokee and the Durango and none of these had heavy steering. I dont know which vehicles aside from the Explorer have EPS, but it was a nice comfy steering experience. Even my 2006 T4R was nice to drive. It was almost like that had EPS.

So far I have 7k miles on the 4R and I am still not convinced that I am going to keep it. But I put a beautiful front grill overlay on it, changed the H11 lights and fog lights to HID, put Firestone Destination LE2's on it, a KandN Air Filter to help increase petal response and changed all the interior lights to LEDS. After putting all this time, money and effort into this vehicle it made me wish I hadnt because my driving experience has been quite negative, starting with the HPS. I would have liked to dump it and get on with my life without the 5th gen. Its the reason I halted modding out the 4R. I wanted to upgrade the sound system and change the shocks and struts to stop the lean. But I have done enough considering I may still get away from this vehicle. I even checked out how to sell it on this forum.

So I started asking people I see with the 5th gens about their steering effort and NO ONE, even the ladies dont have a problem steering. I am up to having conversations with 7 people. So I watched people on youTube giving their opinions on the 5th gen while driving and they turn the steering wheel with no problem, with ease. Theres one guy with skinny arms and he turns the wheel like it has EPS.

So now I have been adjusting my seat to get better access to the wheel so I can steer easier and now I have tendonitis in my right knee. And the wheel doesnt turn any easier no matter how I have the seat adjusted.

I must sound like a total wimp but I can assure you that my arms and legs are not the problem. LOL.

So in my opinion, I would have LOVED if Toyota had put EPS in this 4R.

And just as an added note, this 4R tracks the road like I am driving on railroad rails. Even though Toyotas Field Service Tech slightly changed the alignment. Also, I would have appreciated if the top of the inside of the door wasnt so far away. Theres no place to rest my elbow. But it doesnt matter, I cant make slight highway adjustments or make turns without using full use of both hands and arms.

So if anyone has actually gotten through reading all of this rant and opinion, does anyone have any advise? Any mechanics out there? I would love to hear from you. I wish the gas petal was a little easier to press down as well.

Yikes...I don't know what to say.

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

I am going against the grain here. I absolutely HATE the HPS on my 5th Gen T4R Trail. To the point that I was going to sell it the 4R with less then 3k miles on it. The damn steering was/is so tight that I have tennis elbow AND golfers elbow....basically tendonitis in both arms top and bottom.

Stop skipping arm day?

The 4Runner does not have heavy steering. It's not for everyone though. Every Jeep I have ever driven has had super light steering, so it might be an option for you.

 

[Lindenwood]

I am going against the grain here. I absolutely HATE the HPS on my 5th Gen T4R Trail. To the point that I was going to sell it the 4R with less then 3k miles on it. The damn steering was/is so tight that I have tennis elbow AND golfers elbow....basically tendonitis in both arms top and bottom. Made me wish I had the 2006 T4R back that I traded in for the 5th gen. I got several estimates from automotive buyers and from Ford and Jeep just so I can get rid of my 5th gen.

I went to the dealer 4 times complaining that the steering was too tight and my arms are killing me. I got the standard "go to" answer....everything is in spec. They even had the national field service tech pay a visit to my dealership and of course, no trouble found. OMG!

Well, for FFS, this brand new straight from Japan 5th Gen is the only auto in my life that caused me pain in my arms just to steer it. I never experienced anything like this in my life.

I went to the doctor to get cortisone shots in both elbows and a med to reduce swelling.

I knew that the preload needs to be backed off but I was unable to do it because the lock nut is VERY difficult to get to while laying under the vehicle and I found out that the lock nut isnt a standard 6 sided nut.

I brought the 4R to the mechanic at the end of my neighborhood and he had backed off the preload by 3-5 degrees 4 times. He had to get the proper socket to loosen up the lock nut. AND ITS STILL HEAVY! I actually need it done one more time at least. And I pay him to do it each time.

While I was trying to sell my 4R, I drove the Explorer and the Grand Cherokee and the Durango and none of these had heavy steering. I dont know which vehicles aside from the Explorer have EPS, but it was a nice comfy steering experience. Even my 2006 T4R was nice to drive. It was almost like that had EPS.

So far I have 7k miles on the 4R and I am still not convinced that I am going to keep it. But I put a beautiful front grill overlay on it, changed the H11 lights and fog lights to HID, put Firestone Destination LE2's on it, a KandN Air Filter to help increase petal response and changed all the interior lights to LEDS. After putting all this time, money and effort into this vehicle it made me wish I hadnt because my driving experience has been quite negative, starting with the HPS. I would have liked to dump it and get on with my life without the 5th gen. Its the reason I halted modding out the 4R. I wanted to upgrade the sound system and change the shocks and struts to stop the lean. But I have done enough considering I may still get away from this vehicle. I even checked out how to sell it on this forum.

So I started asking people I see with the 5th gens about their steering effort and NO ONE, even the ladies dont have a problem steering. I am up to having conversations with 7 people. So I watched people on youTube giving their opinions on the 5th gen while driving and they turn the steering wheel with no problem, with ease. Theres one guy with skinny arms and he turns the wheel like it has EPS.

So now I have been adjusting my seat to get better access to the wheel so I can steer easier and now I have tendonitis in my right knee. And the wheel doesnt turn any easier no matter how I have the seat adjusted.

I must sound like a total wimp but I can assure you that my arms and legs are not the problem. LOL.

So in my opinion, I would have LOVED if Toyota had put EPS in this 4R.

And just as an added note, this 4R tracks the road like I am driving on railroad rails. Even though Toyotas Field Service Tech slightly changed the alignment. Also, I would have appreciated if the top of the inside of the door wasnt so far away. Theres no place to rest my elbow. But it doesnt matter, I cant make slight highway adjustments or make turns without using full use of both hands and arms.

So if anyone has actually gotten through reading all of this rant and opinion, does anyone have any advise? Any mechanics out there? I would love to hear from you. I wish the gas petal was a little easier to press down as well.

Have you tried test-driving another 4Runner to see if it is just your vehicle?

I only ask because I am sure Toyota wouldn't sell hundreds of thousands of these vehicles if they strained their driver's arms to the point of pain. My first thought was perhaps some undiagnosed medical issue (severe arthritis comes to mind, to be honest), but you said other large vehicles don't cause this issue. So, the only other likely culprit in a lemon vehicle.

 

[NYT4R]

Thankfully after the visit to the orthopedist, the Xrays showed no tears or rips in my tendons and absolutely no arthritis. Nice clean joints. Just swelling of the tendons. And I forgot to mention that when the dealership was checking my vehicle, they gave me 2 loaners, one was a RAV4 and the other was a Camry. And my arm pain went away immediately. As soon as I got back in my 4R, pain resumed. And technically thats when I went to the doc. And I was thinking lemon also considering that the friggin dealership wouldnt adjust the preload.

 

[NYT4R]

Stop skipping arm day?

The 4Runner does not have heavy steering. It's not for everyone though. Every Jeep I have ever driven has had super light steering, so it might be an option for you.

I wish you were right when speaking about my 4R. But my steering was damn heavy. After 4 adjustments that I paied for, its still causing me pain (not as bad as before mind you) but after a 2 hour drive in this 4R, my arms are TIRED! Im not sure where you are from, but I invite you to come to my place and take a drive. Use a whole tank of gas driving this thing. You will see what I mean. But I do thank you for your reply.

 

[NYT4R]

Sounds like your issue isn't necessarily EPS vs HPS, you just don't like the amount of power assist. I personally prefer road feel with less power assist, it is a matter of personal preference though.

Its not that I dont like the power assist, its that it was almost non-existent when I got the vehicle. Now after 4 adjustments to the preload and 4 visits to the lazy dealership, its better but its still heavy. It needs to be backed off again.

 

[gm350reratliff]

Its not that I dont like the power assist, its that it was almost non-existent when I got the vehicle. Now after 4 adjustments to the preload and 4 visits to the lazy dealership, its better but its still heavy. It needs to be backed off again.

I'm thinking it's just your 4runner. I don't find the steering on either 4runner heavy at all. Plenty of other vehicles with heavier steering out there. I actually prefer a heavier feeling steering.

I'm starting to think you would absolutely die if you had to drive my '69 F100 or cj5 neither of which have power steering at all. Those two will give you a workout.

Just a question, how many years have you been driving?

 

[NorthwoodsRunner]

So if anyone has actually gotten through reading all of this rant and opinion, does anyone have any advise? Any mechanics out there? I would love to hear from you. I wish the gas petal was a little easier to press down as well.

I prescribe you to visit your local YMCA or gym and lift some irons to strengthen your arm muscles. Make sure your left arm gets some work out too. After working out your arms, I also prescribe you to do some strengthening exercise on your quads, ankles, hamstring, calf muscles, and Achilles heels. If after six months of intensive training you are not improved, I would like to trade your T4R for my beloved Pontiac Aztek. Do we have a deal?

 

[Vinsil]

Make sure your left arm gets some work out too.

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[NorthwoodsRunner]

Thankfully after the visit to the orthopedist, the Xrays showed no tears or rips in my tendons and absolutely no arthritis. Nice clean joints.

This is a total BS - x-ray cannot discern soft-tissue tears or damages. x-ray is generally good except for diagnosing soft-tissue problems or acute stroke related issues. If you want accurate assessment then you have to get an MRI. Perhaps, you are not seeing a competent medical doctor. NY got some really good medical centers.

 

[NYT4R]

I'm thinking it's just your 4runner. I don't find the steering on either 4runner heavy at all. Plenty of other vehicles with heavier steering out there. I actually prefer a heavier feeling steering.

I'm starting to think you would absolutely die if you had to drive my '69 F100 or cj5 neither of which have power steering at all. Those two will give you a workout.

Just a question, how many years have you been driving?

My friend, its definitely my 4R. But as far as the dealership is concerned, the heavy steering is on ALL OF THEM and everything is in spec, so theres no actual problem. BS and I know it. I never let on to them that I know a thing or 2 about autos so I never said to them "reduce the friggin preload".

And to answer your question, I have been driving since I was 12 and I turned 49 in Sept. So I have been driving 37 years.

 

[NYT4R]

I prescribe you to visit your local YMCA or gym and lift some irons to strengthen your arm muscles. Make sure your left arm gets some work out too. After working out your arms, I also prescribe you to do some strengthening exercise on your quads, ankles, hamstring, calf muscles, and Achilles heels. If after six months of intensive training you are not improved, I would like to trade your T4R for my beloved Pontiac Aztek. Do we have a deal?

LOL. Well.....I wouldnt drive an Aztec even if it was given to me. LOL. And I also cannot work out until my tendons heal. But arm strength has never been an issue for me. Matter of fact, I am in great condition. I cant even play my guitar now. Turning my left arm over so I can play the fret board hurts like crazy. But keep in mind, that my tendon issues only started when I picked this 4R from the dealership with 55 miles on it.