5th Gen. KDSS vs. Non-KDSS handling performance & sway bar diameter differences.

[CS223]

Thought I'd post this info from the 4Runner production spec sheet for folks so that it might come up in a search. There's a number of threads on the KDSS system and folks preferring it due to the improved highway handling. But as I learned in my research, that improved highway handling isn't a result of the KDSS system itself but rather the components, specifically the sway bars used in the system. Don't know if there is any cross compatibility for those wanting to alter handling characteristics. The diameter info should be useful for future bushing replacement.

Front Stabilizer Bar Diameters

4x2 1.22"

4x4 1.18"
4x4 W/KDSS 1.68"
4x4 Limited 1.22" w/X-REAS

Rear Stabilizer Bar Diameters

4x4 0.787"
4x4 W/KDSS 1.18"

 

[jasxn]

Thought I'd post this info from the 4Runner production spec sheet for folks so that it might come up in a search. There's a number of threads on the KDSS system and folks preferring it due to the improved highway handling. But as I learned in my research, that improved highway handling isn't a result of the KDSS system itself but rather the components, specifically the sway bars used in the system. Don't know if there is any cross compatibility for those wanting to alter handling characteristics. The diameter info should be useful for future bushing replacement.

Front Stabilizer Bar Diameters

4x2 1.22"

4x4 1.18"
4x4 W/KDSS 1.68"
4x4 Limited 1.22" w/X-REAS

Rear Stabilizer Bar Diameters

4x4 0.787"
4x4 W/KDSS 1.18"

Would you happen to know if Non-KDSS have swaybar end links?
If not I'm sure it'll be a nice upgrade for road characteristics.

I upgrade my wifes forester xt swaybar (16mm) to the WRX STI swaybar (20mm) and made a huge difference in reducing body roll.

 

[wfo9]

Yes that's the sole function of KDSS is to give a good handling street vehicle with those large diameter sway bars and loosen them up offroad to allow more travel than it would normally have with a heavy bar like that. The non-KDSS swaybar's are a compromise between on road and off-road and have traditional swaybar links like the FJ cruiser and Tacoma and so on and are easily modified if you want quick disconnects for real off road travel with extended length shocks. The limiting factor on the KDSS system of course is the hydraulic cylinders that link the frame to the swaybar. No matter how much travel your shock or suspension has these links are the limiting factor and one reason why you will not find this system on the pro model or the FJ cruiser.

The KDSS sway bar does not use traditional links. It attaches directly to the front LCA and rear Axle with bushings. It's a different animal with no compatability with a traditional linked swaybar system.

It only opens up and allows the cylinder connecting it to the frame to compress (loosen up) when below 12mph. So you get the full stiff swaybar behavior off-road unless you are going below that speed.

Traditional swaybar disconnects are not easy at all on a non-KDSS 5th gen. It can be done and I have built a disconnect system for the front that works, but it took a lot of trial and error plus fabrication... I don't ever plan to do another one since it was such a PITA. The swaybars are constantly in the way or hitting your CV boots unless you come up with something sophisticated like a single side arm disconnect. The rear is a bit easier, but still difficult to keep the swaybar from banging around when disconnected.

In summary, the non-KDSS swaybar setup is a compromise between on-off road performance.

KDSS is good at low speed offroad and on-road. You can't do any type of long travel setup with KDSS in the rear because the non-linked swaybar will contact the track bar as it tries to droop. Long travel in the front won't work with any of the stock swaybar configuations.

 

[e60ral]

i've hit the sway bar on obstacles, but only on things that otherwise would have just hit the LCA

 

[e60ral]

you can get an extended warranty if you are concerned about it

but i'm not aware of widespread issues for why you should be concerned

 

[nb rob]

Cool story bro.
You really are good at buying vehicles.
Didn't you do a big "KDSS is complicated and breaks often" diatribe a few weeks ago? I recall your intimate knowledge of the TRD pro's lack of KDSS being questioned, and you quietly disappeared.

I don't care if you like it, but your bs claims make it tough for new folks researching 4runners.
ABS was considered complicated and something that would just require expensive repair not long ago.

 

[mscot]

Did you inform him that you had an airbag that could deploy for no reason and was being recalled but had no actual date on when it would be fixed?

 

[EddieV4runnin]

I'm actually grateful for the pro KDSS fanboys and Toyota, I've had 5 5th gen 4runners , trail editions and now TRD off-road and I special ordered each one without KDSS. The reason I'm happy that most of them have it is it drives the overall transaction price higher it translates to higher resale and people on the used car market most have no idea. When I sold my 2013 the person asked me about KDSS I said mine did not have it , he said he was looking at one that had it and he was thinking about buying that one. I said do yourself a favor call the dealerships Toyota and Lexus and ask them how much to repair a small leak and service your KDSS system now that it's out of warranty. He said that's a good idea. After two days he called me up and said that was very frustrating nobody knows what it is and the people that did scared me with the prices, why would anybody buy that? I replied yeah but it rides better on the street and he said I'm not buying it for its street ride there's a lot better vehicles for that. I said I agree he bought it at my asking price because he could not find another one. Remember big expensive complicated options on the front end sometimes hurt resale on the backend.
In the future when these trucks are worn out and people want to modify them they're going to be looking for the 4Runner with the locking rear axle without any of that complicated suspension junk xreas and KDSS That's just common sense

I doubt it's complicated to repair. You want dealership techs you're gonna pay dealership money (Not always the best). There are plenty of good shops out there with the experience to service the system.

I have it on my 4Runner and love the damn thing.

 

[wfo9]

I doubt it's complicated to repair. You want dealership techs you're gonna pay dealership money (Not always the best). There are plenty of good shops out there with the experience to service the system.

I have it on my 4Runner and love the damn thing.

I'm not a KDSS hater, It has pros and cons... and it makes some good sense on a brand new vehicle... I might even choose it for certain use cases.. But you will never find an independent shop willing to touch it.

After 150k or so you are rolling the dice with it... Overall it is a good system. It's just the cost of repair and lack of parts and experience with it that sucks. It's also generally awkward to deal with for other suspension related repairs.

 

[Trixx]

It's a great system and to each their own. Definitely depends on individual use, personal risk factors, etc.

I test drove one with and without and wasn't especially swayed to get the one with, but could have gone either way given I found the color and other options I wanted.

Once I installed aftermarket suspension with a 650 lb front spring, I felt it really helped form up the suspension in a similar sense as the KDSS did. Tighter cornering, on road, etc.

I'm not the most mechanically inclined, but really wanted to Install my suspension system myself. The KDSS would definitely have made me more uneasy to Install myself than I already was. I know to many people it's nothing, but people certainly struggle with it.

I think the constant silliness on the forum of people criticizing others decisions can get a bit immature. Who cares? You don't know all the factors that made people choose what they did. Even those with TRD Pros who immediately swap out the suspension. Maybe they really wanted the nicer leather that the trail didn't have, or a color not available? Same goes for KDSS

 

[Jetboy]

I'm actually grateful for the pro KDSS fanboys and Toyota, I've had 5 5th gen 4runners , trail editions and now TRD off-road and I special ordered each one without KDSS. The reason I'm happy that most of them have it is it drives the overall transaction price higher it translates to higher resale and people on the used car market most have no idea. When I sold my 2013 the person asked me about KDSS I said mine did not have it , he said he was looking at one that had it and he was thinking about buying that one. I said do yourself a favor call the dealerships Toyota and Lexus and ask them how much to repair a small leak and service your KDSS system now that it's out of warranty. He said that's a good idea. After two days he called me up and said that was very frustrating nobody knows what it is and the people that did scared me with the prices, why would anybody buy that? I replied yeah but it rides better on the street and he said I'm not buying it for its street ride there's a lot better vehicles for that. I said I agree he bought it at my asking price because he could not find another one. Remember big expensive complicated options on the front end sometimes hurt resale on the backend.
In the future when these trucks are worn out and people want to modify them they're going to be looking for the 4Runner with the locking rear axle without any of that complicated suspension junk xreas and KDSS That's just common sense

It's okay to just say KDSS is too much for you to deal with. Toyota doesn't take special orders. More KDSS vehicles are sold annually than 4runners without KDSS. It's also better offroad. It has more travel stock than either a TRD Pro or Trail.

 

[Trail2trd]

I just switched from a trail with kdss to a TRD pro and you can definitely tell the difference in the corners. The trd feels way musher in corners at all speeds.

 

[Eryan36]

Thanks for the info, OP. Always good to have real numbers.

 

[Engineer]

I'm actually grateful for the pro KDSS fanboys and Toyota, I've had 5 5th gen 4runners , trail editions and now TRD off-road and I special ordered each one without KDSS. The reason I'm happy that most of them have it is it drives the overall transaction price higher it translates to higher resale and people on the used car market most have no idea. When I sold my 2013 the person asked me about KDSS I said mine did not have it , he said he was looking at one that had it and he was thinking about buying that one. I said do yourself a favor call the dealerships Toyota and Lexus and ask them how much to repair a small leak and service your KDSS system now that it's out of warranty. He said that's a good idea. After two days he called me up and said that was very frustrating nobody knows what it is and the people that did scared me with the prices, why would anybody buy that? I replied yeah but it rides better on the street and he said I'm not buying it for its street ride there's a lot better vehicles for that. I said I agree he bought it at my asking price because he could not find another one. Remember big expensive complicated options on the front end sometimes hurt resale on the backend.
In the future when these trucks are worn out and people want to modify them they're going to be looking for the 4Runner with the locking rear axle without any of that complicated suspension junk xreas and KDSS That's just common sense

Do you put an large amount of miles on your cars? Wondering why you have had 5 5th gens in 7 years (maybe 8). Multiple 4runner family is my assumption? You have done well if the transactions costs of owning 5 4runners is less then the potential future repair bill for a KDSS system.

 

[EddieV4runnin]

I'm not a KDSS hater, It has pros and cons... and it makes some good sense on a brand new vehicle... I might even choose it for certain use cases.. But you will never find an independent shop willing to touch it.

After 150k or so you are rolling the dice with it... Overall it is a good system. It's just the cost of repair and lack of parts and experience with it that sucks. It's also generally awkward to deal with for other suspension related repairs.

Didn't intend to say you were a hater. I feel KDSS is a great system that gets too much flak.

Oh a noise!!! Must be KDSS
Oh rough ride!!! Must be KDSS etc.

I drove both, liked KDSS ride a lot.

 

[EddieV4runnin]

I will add @wtof9 that you are correct about the lack of experience with the system by some techs. Took my 4Runner in for an alignment at my local dealer. After I got home I looked at the alignment spec sheet they give you and saw they had aligned it as an SR5 and not as a Trail w/KDSS. I don't know how you miss that. You're underneath the damn truck and there's a cylinder attached to the stabilizer bar, and thought that this might be different and I better do a bit more research doesn't cross your mind???

 

[mybabydaddy]

I'm not a KDSS hater, It has pros and cons... and it makes some good sense on a brand new vehicle... I might even choose it for certain use cases.. But you will never find an independent shop willing to touch it.

After 150k or so you are rolling the dice with it... Overall it is a good system. It's just the cost of repair and lack of parts and experience with it that sucks. It's also generally awkward to deal with for other suspension related repairs.

.... I must be lucky then...

www.tandemauto.com



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jasxn]

I will add @wtof9 that you are correct about the lack of experience with the system by some techs. Took my 4Runner in for an alignment at my local dealer. After I got home I looked at the alignment spec sheet they give you and saw they had aligned it as an SR5 and not as a Trail w/KDSS. I don't know how you miss that. You're underneath the damn truck and there's a cylinder attached to the stabilizer bar, and thought that this might be different and I better do a bit more research doesn't cross your mind???

does the trail/kdss have a different spec range? i only ask because I just got an alignment done today and i see on the printout stating 4x4 sr5, sr5 premium.

 

[wfo9]

does the trail/kdss have a different spec range? i only ask because I just got an alignment done today and i see on the printout stating 4x4 sr5, sr5 premium.

Alignment specs are the same...

 

[wfo9]

It's okay to just say KDSS is too much for you to deal with. Toyota doesn't take special orders. More KDSS vehicles are sold annually than 4runners without KDSS. It's also better offroad. It has more travel stock than either a TRD Pro or Trail.

Curious where are you coming up with that number... Seems impossible to me since there are a lot more sr5, and Limiteds on the road. Or did you mean more trail edition 4Runners with KDSS than not. I'm guessing it is a low percentage. Would be interesting to know though...

I'll agree in stock form it is better at low speed offroad. But only in stock form. At speed, the stock non-kdss is better IMHO.

It's a nice feature. The point of this thread was to compare the swaybars.. It's apples and oranges....so really pointless to compare the specs.