6th gen 2017 4R, will it exist?

[CO-Cygnus]

It was loaded so maybe I assumed limited (prob sport or platinum), but it definitely had the ecoboost.

It gets confusing because they have two flavors of ecoboost in the Explorer, I can definitely see the smaller version having power issues on a vehicle the size of the explorer.

I test drove a Platinum with the 3.5 EB not long ago and I thought the torque was immediate and plentiful, you never really had to hunt for it. The twin-scroll does a good job of minimizing turbo lag and it effortlessly made the climb up I-70 to Evergreen without much drama, where the 4.0 in the 4R needs to hammered pretty hard.

I would love to see something like this in the 4R, assuming Toyota won't bring the 4.6 back.

 

[Craigy]

Wonder why nothing has been leaked yet. Personally I'm waiting to see what the next generation 4Runner has in store before buying this generation.

probably because there's nothing to leak...

For a multibillion dollar product line, there is undoubtedly a highly scrutinized plan in place with designs likely mostly complete and decided at this point.

I'm sure there are plenty of little details to be worked out, but Toyota knows what they're giving us in a couple of years.

Toyota doesn't want to do anything that will cost them sales in the present, so they will remain tight-lipped until a few months before launch as they've done before previous refreshes and redesigns. There are literally thousands of trucks on lots right now, and they sell thousands per month, which is hundreds of millions of dollars.

 

[chmura]

I have very low hopes for the 6th gen 4runner. I actually have low expectations for Toyota North American in general. Seems like the North American market just cares for good infotainment system and that is it.

I would love Toyota NA to bring the vehicles that Toyota Australia have.

This is my dream overlanding vehicle. A Landcruiser Troopy. Its really sad we cannot get these vehicles here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83knQ1HDBDk

 

[LandCruiser]

I have very low hopes for the 6th gen 4runner. I actually have low expectations for Toyota North American in general. Seems like the North American market just cares for good infotainment system and that is it.

I would love Toyota NA to bring the vehicles that Toyota Australia have.

This is my dream overlanding vehicle. A Landcruiser Troopy. Its really sad we cannot get these vehicles here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83knQ1HDBDk

I had the LC76 wagon (more city practical triplet of the Troopie and Ute), it would be the most compatible with the US market.

If they play with the suspension to get the GVWR over 8k, they can pretty much skirt most regulations over importing it--not sure if Obama and his Stalinist EPA would approve the Diesel V8, tho.

 

[sooperedd]

A smaller 6 with a couple turbos would be nice, 300+ hp.

What we need is a small turbocharged and supercharged 2stroke 4cyl diesel mated to a 8speed gearbox.

In Ford's case, the 3.5 ecoboost eat's the 5.0's lunch in low-end torque. People tend to use all the torque the EB has, so your actual mpg is nowhere near the EPA estimate though.

Toyota seems to have shown they are going to be very measured and deliberate with their approach to Turbos, but I think they are not going to have a choice but to offer them.

Toyota's Hybrid lineup has bought them a lot of time to hit their CAFE goals here in the U.S.

 

[05Rrunner]

Wow ! We're way off topic

 

[Craigy]

Toyota seems to have shown they are going to be very measured and deliberate with their approach to Turbos, but I think they are not going to have a choice but to offer them.

Toyota's Hybrid lineup has bought them a lot of time to hit their CAFE goals here in the U.S.

+1

Even their with their nonhybrid lineup, they sell enough Camries and Corollas to drown out any additional consumption from their trucks.

 

[marshal]

Toyota seems to have shown they are going to be very measured and deliberate with their approach to Turbos, but I think they are not going to have a choice but to offer them.

Toyota's Hybrid lineup has bought them a lot of time to hit their CAFE goals here in the U.S.

i can't believe you thought i was serious, or you didnt even bother reading my post

 

[IvanSF]

In my case I'm just waiting for the Chicago Auto Show to see if they announce a redesign, or I will just go for a current model. Coming from an Ecoboost F150 I'm worried that engine will feel way too dull.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

In my case I'm just waiting for the Chicago Auto Show to see if they announce a redesign, or I will just go for a current model. Coming from an Ecoboost F150 I'm worried that engine will feel way too dull.

It probably will, particularly because of the programming. But it's probably more reliable than the EcoBoost. Been hearing a lot of horror stories for that engine line as a whole. Supposedly the Gen 2 EcoBoost is supposed to be far better in that respect.

 

[sooperedd]

i can't believe you thought i was serious, or you didnt even bother reading my post

No I got it, but....a small turbo diesel, like Jeep is going to put in the next Wrangler, would make all my dreams come true.

 

[Dalko43]

They are not the same thing, therefore it is incorrect to call torque "power". I agree, torque is probably the more important factor for acceleration. Power is more important for things like top-end speed and hauling a heavy trailer up a hill.

They aren't the same thing, but one determines the other, right?

HP = [Torque (ft*lb) x N (RPM)]/5252

So they are related.

And I've always thought that torque, not horsepower, was the more important factor for towing/hauling, especially up hills?

Maybe one of the resident know-it-all's can chime in here and tell me if I'm right or wrong.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

No I got it, but....a small turbo diesel, like Jeep is going to put in the next Wrangler, would make all my dreams come true.

I'd be interested to see one of Toyota's new Diesels in action... there are supposed to be the most thermally efficient units in the world at the moment and they pretty powerful for how tiny they are...

 

[Dalko43]

I'd be interested to see one of Toyota's new Diesels in action... there are supposed to be the most thermally efficient units in the world at the moment and they pretty powerful for how tiny they are...

I day-dream sometimes about buying a used LC 200 (some 3-5 years down the road) and putting a Cummins V8 in it.

Or maybe holding onto my 4runner for the long-term and eventually putting a Duramax or Cummins inline 4 in it.

If Toyota were to beat me to the punch and put one of their diesels in either vehicle, I would be very happy to give them my money.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

I day-dream sometimes about buying a used LC 200 (some 3-5 years down the road) and putting a Cummins V8 in it.

Or maybe holding onto my 4runner for the long-term and eventually putting a Duramax or Cummins inline 4 in it.

If Toyota were to beat me to the punch and put one of their diesels in either vehicle, I would be very happy to give them my money.

Well they do sell the LC200 overseas with an optional 4.5L 1VD-FTV Common-Rail V8 Twin-VGT Diesel that pumps out about 479 lb·ft on a factory tune. That's one of my "dream" engines I'd love to shove in the 4th gen. Shame you probably can't import that vehicle.

 

[marshal]

Well they do sell the LC200 overseas with an optional 4.5L 1VD-FTV Common-Rail V8 Twin-VGT Diesel that pumps out about 479 lb·ft on a factory tune. That's one of my "dream" engines I'd love to shove in the 4th gen. Shame you probably can't import that vehicle.

you can once its 25 years old. or you could import the engine right now if you can find someone that will pull one and ship it for you.

 

[M1911]

Problem is that Ford is doing that and most everyone I have talked to that owns a turbo'd six says the same thing, "it's not a replacement for the V8."

Low end torque is something that's more desirable than high-end HP in a Truck/SUV because in 4WD applications you're not going fast but you need more power to crawl vs. maintaining high speed. I'm all for turbos and superchargers, but I haven't seen too many non-diesel V6 stock applications that get the torque band close to a V8.

Actually, from what I've seen the torque curve on the EcoBoost V6s is far superior to that of naturally aspirated V8s. The figure below shows the torque curves for the previous version of F-150 engines.

As you can see, the green curve from the EcoBoost 3.5l V6 is far above the 5.0 V8 at low rpms. In fact, it is far above the 6.2l V8.

The EcoBoost V6 provides generous torque at low RPMs. Lack of torque at low RPMs is simply not an issue.

That said, the EcoBoost has at least two issues: 1) in real world driving, it doesn't provide anywhere near the rated EPA fuel economy, and 2) at least early on there were reports of the 3.5l V6 intercooler being to effective -- causing the intake charge to develop water and even ice, resulting in all sorts of problems in humid areas. I assume that #2 has since been solved, but #1 is still an issue.

While I love the idea of a turbodiesel engine, I don't like the idea of paying an extra $4k more than the 5.7l V8, which is what it would cost. And Toyota simply won't import a LC with a diesel engine.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Actually, from what I've seen the torque curve on the EcoBoost V6s is far superior to that of naturally aspirated V8s. The figure below shows the torque curves for the previous version of F-150 engines.

As you can see, the green curve from the EcoBoost 3.5l V6 is far above the 5.0 V8 at low rpms. In fact, it is far above the 6.2l V8.

The EcoBoost V6 provides generous torque at low RPMs. Lack of torque at low RPMs is simply not a an issue.

That said, the EcoBoost has at least two issues: 1) in real world driving, it doesn't provide anywhere near the rated EPA fuel economy, and 2) at least early on there were reports of the 3.5l V6 intercooler being to effective -- causing the intake charge to develop water and even ice, resulting in all sorts of problems in humid areas. I assume that #2 has since been solved, but #1 is still an issue.

While I love the idea of a turbodiesel engine, I don't like the idea of paying an extra $4k more than the 5.7l V8, which is what it would cost. And Toyota simply won't import a LC with a diesel engine.

I found those charts last night and I was genuinely impressed; the torque curve is much better than I had thought. But from many of the real world drivers they still said that it translated awkwardly and sometimes didn't feel as smooth as the V8. Which I am sure could be worked out via mapping and tuning the transmission and engine a bit. I don't doubt a Forced Induction V6 could be made to give the feel of a Truck V8 and the EcoBoost certainly makes a strong argument for that; but it's still not quite there; much in the way EVs are obviously the future, but the technology and infrastructure is just too young to really buy into right now reliably.

 

[M1911]

I found those charts last night and I was genuinely impressed; the torque curve is much better than I had thought. But from many of the real world drivers they still said that it translated awkwardly and sometimes didn't feel as smooth as the V8. Which I am sure could be worked out via mapping and tuning the transmission and engine a bit. I don't doubt a Forced Induction V6 could be made to give the feel of a Truck V8 and the EcoBoost certainly makes a strong argument for that; but it's still not quite there; much in the way EVs are obviously the future, but the technology and infrastructure is just too young to really buy into right now reliably.

I wonder how much of that is the turbo-charged, direct injection design or just the damn electronic throttle.

 

[Jetboy]

Basically we all want a variable displacement engine. We want one engine size to give power at the rpms we drive as efficiently as possible. And we want a different effective engine size to make lots of power when we push the go pedal. All engines have an rpm range, but I think ideally we would rather have an engine vary displacement within the range - kinda has an effect like having an engine that will go from 1k to 15k rpms and be reasonably efficient through the range.

So... if you want to do variable displacement you can go small engine plus forced induction or big engine with ability to reduce displacement. Either one is kinda tricky to get to run very efficiently at low power output. On the turbo side you have EGT issues, so you can't run lean. Gotta keep that turbo cool. The Lexus 2.0L turbo might be better here due in part to water jacket integration. I cant remember if it's there or not. The big advantage here is you have a huge range of boost so you can make a 2.0L act like a 3 liter, or a 6 liter when you want it. With downsize type operation you have a known maximum.

On the other end of the spectrum is the atkinson cycle option where you take big displacement and shorten the effective stroke. I think this is the future of engines. I think Toyota knows it too. The thermal efficiency of the D4S motors can be much better than any turbo motor. But so far IMO the biggest issue I see is that Toyota isn't sizing the engine large enough to start with. A 5 liter v8 that can effectively run at 3 liters in atkinson mode would be great. And I suspect it could rival the 2.0 turbo in mpg while significantly beating it in the power department. Not to mention much better long term reliability.

So for me - give me a 5+ liter v8 that can "downsize" by way of atkinson cycle operation for good mpgs.