Amen Clinic

No. Was I not clear about that?
I am confident about the validity of the study. This is based upon the premise that Dr Amen is both an ethical and highly competent professional with the knowledge and expertise to conduct a proper study.

The argument "X is true because I trust Mr.A who says so" is quite different from the argument "X is true because I've read a scientific study and I accept its findings".

If you trust Dr.Amen that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't have anything to do with science. And it's not a good reason for other people to trust him, either.

I am interested in refuting the baseless assertions and ill informed opinions

You can't refute anything because you have no arguments other than "I trust Mr.A!"
 
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The argument "X is true because I trust Mr.A who says so" is quite different from the argument "X is true because I've read a scientific study and I accept its findings".

If you trust Dr.Amen that's perfectly fine, but it doesn't have anything to do with science. And it's not a good reason for other people to trust him, either.



You can't refute anything because you have no arguments other than "I trust Mr.A!"
Regarding the science: it has been published, authored by 5 reputable doctors, so yeah, I trust Dr A + Dr B + Dr C + Dr D + Dr E. I trust the findings. You have an issue with it so you please go critique it. If the authors are ethical and competent researchers I think it is reasonable to accept the findings. Have you uncovered any reputable critiques of the study which show it as flawed, unreliable, and invalid?

I am refuting the claims that he is unethical, incompetent, or greedy. I am documenting the fact that the SPECT scan was critical in the accurate diagnoses of me, my two brother in laws, my niece, my family friend, and thekid - accurate diagnoses which allowed my/our doctor to prescribe the correct meds in the correct combination the first time instead of playing Rx roulette. The proof is in the pudding.
I am stating for the record that I and the other 5 people I know who actually were patients of the Amen Clinic were able to receive the most effective treatment because of its diagnostic value. One of my brother in laws was taking some meds and under the care of another reputable psychiatrist for many years. He was high functioning in many ways but low functioning in others. There was a clear cycle of anger/calm, he was quite ADDish, very intense, impulsive, not a happy camper. Because of the specificity the scan provided he is now completely normal. He is an exceptional person, highly driven and intelligent and funny and successful. Now he is also a healthy person because he is off the meds prescribed by the former Dr and on the meds suggested by the scan results. He is on the proper meds because of the scan.
Look at some before and after scans on the Amen Clinic website. Very scientific.

You guys decry the lack of studies then deride the one which was just completed as invalid. Whatever. I know the 6 of us have had a 100% success rate.
 
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Because of the specificity the scan provided

He is on the proper meds because of the scan.

Look at some before and after scans on the Amen Clinic website. Very scientific.

Specificity...how do you know? By looking on his website? You and I (and the rest of medical community) have a very different definition of something being "scientific."

Are you so sure that he is on proper meds because of the scan result OR because the psychiatrist at AMEN clinic is competent? THINK about that for a moment. No one has said that AMEN Clinic docs are incompetent. No one.

As a doctor, it is much easier for me to treat someone AFTER they have been treated by another doctor. Why? I can see what has failed and what has not with the previous treatment(s). I can tailor make a treatment regimen that is different (great mental effect on patient) yet avoid the pitfalls of prior doctor's attempts. The different regimen provides a great stimulus for the patient to be more compliant since there is a difference (real or not). In the end, i can do no wrong...and patients love me for it because i "solved" their problem while others did not. I am a hero...but am i? There is only so many medications out there. It is just a matter of picking the right combinations. If i have a printout of what has been tried and failed, then my choices narrow down...thus, my job just got a lot easier.

Before you go and respond to me, PLEASE read what i just wrote. Use critical thinking that you claim to have. Please. SPECT is unnecessary. It pays the bills, nothing more, nothing less.
 
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I trust the findings.

That is not true. You haven't read them!

You trust the authority of the authors which is quite different from trusting the findings.

If the authors are ethical and competent researchers I think it is reasonable to accept the findings.

No, I don't think so.

Try reading this or, if you feel confident enough for an academic paper, this.

I know the 6 of us have had a 100% success rate.

I am glad your family is a success story. But it's not quite enough to proclaim that the techniques used will help everyone.
 
That is not true. You haven't read them!

You trust the authority of the authors which is quite different from trusting the findings.

The abstract contains the relevant stats, yes? this:
Multi-site six month outcome study of comp... [Adv Mind Body Med. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI
I trust that these findings and figures are accurate, valid, reliable. Am I misunderstanding the word 'findings'?

I am glad your family is a success story. But it's not quite enough to proclaim that the techniques used will help everyone.

Thanks. Me, too.
I think everyone will have a greater chance of an accurate diagnosis and thus more effective treatment, but I'm pretty sure I have not proclaimed that the techniques used will help everyone. I'm pretty sure the Dr Amen doesn't assert this either.
The abstract of the study has Results which show there is not a 100% success rate in the 500 test subjects.
 
Try reading this or, if you feel confident enough for an academic paper, this.

Well written, interesting article.
Ok, I agree that in this world there are flawed or rigged studies. I agree there are unethical study designers. This can be generalized to any field, endeavor, persuit. I would have agreed before reading the article. Is it your premise that the study I reference was deliberately rigged? Or unintentionally biased to create the results they hoped for?
Reading the parameters and findings and such described in the abstract, it looks legit to me. It included 500 test subjects. I believe this is noteworthy re validity and statistical anomalies and so on. They added a single variable, a SPECT scan, to test its efficacy in the diagnostic procedure.

If he is not the ethical, competent, caring, reliable Doctor I assert he is, then what is his end game?
I don't see infomercials pushing these services. The patients find the Amen Clinic, the Clinic doesn't go out and solicit them.
 
Is it your premise that the study I reference was deliberately rigged? Or unintentionally biased to create the results they hoped for?

My premise is that looking just at an abstract you can't tell.

Sometimes you can't tell even after looking at the paper itself if it keep silent on important issues. But usually the complete text of the paper provides enough clues for a guess at whether the researchers knew what they were doing and whether there was a bit of, um, massaging the data to point in the right direction.

If he is not the ethical, competent, caring, reliable Doctor I assert he is, then what is his end game?

The usual, money, fame, and fortune :-)

Do note that I'm not implying that this clinic is a fraud or dishonest. It's common for people to truly believe that what they are offering is the real deal. That, however, does not necessarily make it so in reality. That's why there is the need for scientific studies, ideally random controlled double-blind experiments.
 
The abstract, by definition, contains an incomplete summary of the findings, notably without the context to correctly interpret them.
Doesn't an abstract state the findings? It is a summary of the study parameters and results. It says this is the data we gathered, these are the results. The results are summarized and numerically declared.

I see no reason to trust in this. See the links in the post above.
Is this because you are circumspect of all studies or are you referring specifically to this one?
 
Well written, interesting article.
If he is not the ethical, competent, caring, reliable Doctor I assert he is, then what is his end game?
I don't see infomercials pushing these services. The patients find the Amen Clinic, the Clinic doesn't go out and solicit them.

PBS Infomercial for Daniel Amen's Clinics - Skeptimedia - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com He produced his own PBS infomercial in 2009. He was on as a "guest" yet he produced it all by himself. It was shown across the country, for free with the exception of the original production fee. This guy is a marketing genius. Why? the only reason anyone ever does anything, outside Mother Teresa and the current Pope: Money and Power. Now, if you show me somewhere that he gives his money away, or that the clinics are non profit, I will reassess.
 
Doesn't an abstract state the findings? It is a summary of the study parameters and results. It says this is the data we gathered, these are the results. The results are summarized and numerically declared.


Is this because you are circumspect of all studies or are you referring specifically to this one?

Abstracts are exactly that: an "abstract" of the main body of work. I write them all the time. Basically it is a short brief on why I wrote what I wrote and what the highlights will be and what I hope to find. Sometimes in this world you have to write up a failed experiment or test. The abstract would list what I hoped for and the conclusion would show how bad I screwed up lol. A summary, synopsis or conclusion is what will talk briefly about the results. These are not any good though if you actually want to form your own opinion by looking at the actual data, methodology or sources.
 
Point conceded

PBS Infomercial for Daniel Amen's Clinics - Skeptimedia - The Skeptic's Dictionary - Skepdic.com He produced his own PBS infomercial in 2009. He was on as a "guest" yet he produced it all by himself. It was shown across the country, for free with the exception of the original production fee. This guy is a marketing genius. Why? the only reason anyone ever does anything, outside Mother Teresa and the current Pope: Money and Power. Now, if you show me somewhere that he gives his money away, or that the clinics are non profit, I will reassess.
Ah ha, look at that. Ive seen these and it never occurred to me they were infomercials. Point conceded.

I do not subscribe to the view that profit = lack of integrity.

Can I assume you are being facetious when you say money and power are the only motivators?
 
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Abstracts are exactly that: an "abstract" of the main body of work. I write them all the time. Basically it is a short brief on why I wrote what I wrote and what the highlights will be and what I hope to find. Sometimes in this world you have to write up a failed experiment or test. The abstract would list what I hoped for and the conclusion would show how bad I screwed up lol. A summary, synopsis or conclusion is what will talk briefly about the results. These are not any good though if you actually want to form your own opinion by looking at the actual data, methodology or sources.
This is what I thought. So is this an abstract? Does it provide all of the information an abstract normally would?
Multi-site six month outcome study of comp... [Adv Mind Body Med. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI
 
More information: NIMH · Brain Scans ? Not Quite Ready for Prime Time

Dr. Thomas Insel, the director of the National Institute for Mental Health, characterizes brain imaging as “still primarily a research tool.” He cautions that “entrepreneurial zeal capitalizing on scientific advances needs to be tempered by reality checks.”

The differences in brain structure and activity seen in disorders like schizophrenia or ADHD, for example, are typically only meaningful when comparing group statistics. There is simply too much individual variation in brain structure and function for an individual's scan to be diagnostic or predictive, given the current state of the science.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Experts in the field:

None of the nation’s most prestigious medical organizations in the field — including the APA, the National Institute of Mental Health, the American College of Radiology, the Society of Nuclear Medicine and Molecular Imaging and the National Alliance on Mental Illness — validates his claims.

No major research institution takes his SPECT work seriously.

“In my opinion, what he’s doing is the modern equivalent of phrenology,” says Jeffrey Lieberman, APA president-elect, author of the textbook “Psychiatry” and chairman of Psychiatry at Columbia University College of Physicians and Surgeons. (Phrenology was the pseudoscience, popular in the early 19th century, that said the mind was determined by the shape of the skull, particularly its bumps.) “The claims he makes are not supported by reliable science, and one has to be skeptical about his motivation.

“I think you have a vulnerable patient population that doesn’t know any better,” says M. Elizabeth Oates, chair of the Commission on Nuclear Medicine, Board of Chancellors at the American College of Radiology, and chair of the department of radiology at the University of Kentucky.

“A sham,” says Martha J. Farah, director of the Center for Neuroscience & Society at the University of Pennsylvania, summing up her thoughts on one of Amen’s most recent scientific papers.

“I guess we’re all amateurs except for him,” says Helen Mayberg, a psychiatry, neurology and radiology professor at Emory School of Medicine and one of the most respected researchers into depression and brain scanning. “He’s making claims that are outrageous and not supported by any research.”

“I can’t imagine clinical decisions being guided by an imaging test,” says Steven E. Hyman, former director of the National Institute of Mental Health and current director of the Stanley Center for Psychiatric Research at the Broad Institute of MIT and Harvard.

The APA, in fact, has twice issued papers that dispute “claims being made that brain imaging technology ... was useful for making a clinical diagnosis and for helping in treatment selections.

The most recent paper was published last month. It was the work of 12 doctors who spent three years assessing the latest research. The summary: “There are currently no brain imaging biomarkers that are currently clinically useful for any diagnostic category in psychiatry.”
 
is this helpful?

The abstract, by definition, contains an incomplete summary of the findings, notably without the context to correctly interpret them.



I see no reason to trust in this. See the links in the post above.
Here is a complete study write up if you want to critique the context of the findings. This is not the study I have been referring to. I cannot find a copy of it online that does not require a subscription.
http://www.amenclinics.com/images/p...ectImagingEnhancesPsychiatricPractice2012.pdf
 
Im thinking about posting all 14 pages of my evaluation, including the scans. Personal identifiers redacted, of course.
 
Im thinking about posting all 14 pages of my evaluation, including the scans. Personal identifiers redacted, of course.

[MENTION=100699]dapslappy[/MENTION]

Here's what I don't get about you. You seem like someone who is interested in knowledge; you watch documentaries and claim to be interested in the truth.

Do you understand that just because his assessment of your condition and the drugs or other plan he provided for you worked, that is not scientific. In fact if we went by that logic then we could say faith healing is science or fact.

The simple truth is that only a blind study that is repeatable by other people would count as scientific proof.

You saw results. Ok I believe you. Thai probably believes that you feel better as well. But that is not science. There are all kinds of explanations, many of which Thai has listed above.

Also why are you so intent on defending his methods as 100% truth when
a) you aren't qualified to know
B) there is so much pushback against him from the medical community

Think of it like this ... (Crude I realize) I man goes to a witch doctor and is cured of his mental malease do we believe the witch doctor actually cured the patient?
Why not? Well because medicine and science says that was a sham.

Right now the medical community seems to believe Amen to be a sham. I don't speak for the medical community but no one on this thread doubts that. Just look at the list Thai posted or use google.

So there seems to be enough reason for you to acknowledge and be a bit skeptical yet you remain 100% dug in the trenches.
 
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Are you so sure that he is on proper meds because of the scan result OR because the psychiatrist at AMEN clinic is competent? THINK about that for a moment. No one has said that AMEN Clinic docs are incompetent. No one.

As a doctor, it is much easier for me to treat someone AFTER they have been treated by another doctor. Why? I can see what has failed and what has not with the previous treatment(s). I can tailor make a treatment regimen that is different (great mental effect on patient) yet avoid the pitfalls of prior doctor's attempts. The different regimen provides a great stimulus for the patient to be more compliant since there is a difference (real or not). In the end, i can do no wrong...and patients love me for it because i "solved" their problem while others did not. I am a hero...but am i? There is only so many medications out there. It is just a matter of picking the right combinations. If i have a printout of what has been tried and failed, then my choices narrow down...thus, my job just got a lot easier.

Before you go and respond to me, PLEASE read what i just wrote. Use critical thinking that you claim to have. Please. SPECT is unnecessary. It pays the bills, nothing more, nothing less.

I wrote this before...but want to bring it back for emphasis. I am a hospital doctor...meaning that people who get sick come to the hospital. I see what their family doctor has done...and it may not have worked. For me, my job is much easier because i already knows what has failed (or not work as good as expected).

For example, lets say someone comes in with a blood pressure of 240/120 while being on Medication A and B. Well, being that i know medication A & B are not working, that is already half the battle! I know that i can now try a different combination or start on medication C&D or A&C, or B&C, etc.. I can then even do a renal ultrasound to check to renal artery stenosis (which in theory can worsen BP). Has this test been proven to help much? Not really...but just by doing this test, the patient already feels better because i have done something different, something that his/her family doc has not done...in addition to giving them new medications. Right there, i have won the battle, esp if their BP has come down.

Being the last one to treat in the line is a HUGE benefit...don't take that as a positive sign altogether.

Hope that you understand this, dapslappy. I doubt it since you have shown to be a rather blatant fanboy.

Few top researchers and scientists say that SPECT is anything but a research tool of limited clinical use in identifying strokes, brain injuries and the like. It is helpful in group studies, to say broad things about groups of patients, but not specific things about individual patients. And, researchers say, SPECT has largely since been surpassed by technologies such as PET and functional MRIs, which give images of far greater clarity. It’s no longer viewed as cutting edge.

A Harvard psychologist once noted:

“Before you start promulgating this and marketing it and profiting from it, you should ethically be bound to demonstrate it scientifically in a peer-reviewed, respected journal,” Kirsch said, and then you must have it tested by others.

Otherwise, you might as well get a pair of ponies, a buckboard and a traveling salvation show: “You’re just going down the path of being a snake oil salesman.”

No one cares about SPECT in psychiatry, except for AMEN.
 
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[MENTION=100699]dapslappy[/MENTION]

Here's what I don't get about you. You seem like someone who is interested in knowledge; you watch documentaries and claim to be interested in the truth.

Do you understand that just because his assessment of your condition and the drugs or other plan he provided for you worked, that is not scientific. In fact if we went by that logic then we could say faith healing is science or fact.

The simple truth is that only a blind study that is repeatable by other people would count as scientific proof.

You saw results. Ok I believe you. Thai probably believes that you feel better as well. But that is not science. There are all kinds of explanations, many of which Thai has listed above.

Also why are you so intent on defending his methods as 100% truth when
a) you aren't qualified to know
B) there is so much pushback against him from the medical community

Think of it like this ... (Crude I realize) I man goes to a witch doctor and is cured of his mental malease do we believe the witch doctor actually cured the patient?
Why not? Well because medicine and science says that was a sham.

Right now the medical community seems to believe Amen to be a sham. I don't speak for the medical community but no one on this thread doubts that. Just look at the list Thai posted or use google.

So there seems to be enough reason for you to acknowledge and be a bit skeptical yet you remain 100% dug in the trenches.
I just thought you might find it interesting.
 

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