America this week, what the hell?

[Hepar]

This discussion is making me think of...

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[Thefishguy77]

JFC, where did you get "out of 10" part from???
Let me try again 1 out of 4 dollars. better?
and 10 being GDP.
But I feel that I should emphasise the point, its going up at alarming rate.

Look at this. perhaps visual representation would be easier.
http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.TOTL.ZS?locations=US

So the worldbank link shows the over all spending.

Here are some links that break it down in to areas of health care

http://www.thefiscaltimes.com/2015/12/03/Federal-Health-Care-Costs-Surge-17-Percent-GDP

https://www.cms.gov/research-statis.../nationalhealthexpenddata/nhe-fact-sheet.html

It's funny how the government run health care is the areas of massive percentage increase.

Don't forget most of these overpriced life saving devices were invented by individuals not the government. And the ACA has a medical device tax in it. So let me get this straight we are letting companies know that if you want to invent something you have all the regular costs of inventing. Most of the time inventions fail so big out of pocket expense loss for business. Then when you go to sell you one product that is a winner you have all the normal taxes that every business pays in America. But you need to pay an extra tax now because it's a medical product. All this was suspended because at least a few people in congress realized that it might discourage one of our only strong export industry's in America. Taking a highly skilled labor force paying good family wages and potentially outsourcing it to China?

And as far as my doctors making to much money. If there is anyone I want overpaid it's my doctor. I don't want my doctor to be thinking about how they are going to budget next weeks food bill while he is prepping for a surgery, or thinking about drug interaction.



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[Thefishguy77]

Yes it is. But I prefer a good Tequila. Similar notes, but with its own distinct characteristics. Plus, you can find a really good tequila for a lot better price than a really good scotch.

Good Tequila is nice as well but I am a scotch and whiskey guy. There are some great values to be found. Just need to shop the right stores. As to vodka. No thanks can't do it. Just not my spirt of choice. If for some reason I need to get drunk then maybe with a mixer. But I prefer to sip my scotch and whiskey neat.


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[Thefishguy77]

And let's not forget how well the VA is run. Once again government run healthcare. And it's a disaster. Not going to even bother with links. It's been in enough news stories and no president or congressional effort to "fix" it has made any real difference. We still have veterans essentially waiting to find out what will happen first. They get to see their doctor or they die waiting. Very very sad way to treat those who stand ready in the night so we can sleep sound in our beds at night.


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[Victor_inox]

So the worldbank link shows the over all spending.

Here are some links that break it down in to areas of health care

US Health Care Costs Surge to 17 Percent of GDP | The Fiscal Times

https://www.cms.gov/research-statis.../nationalhealthexpenddata/nhe-fact-sheet.html

It's funny how the government run health care is the areas of massive percentage increase.

Don't forget most of these overpriced life saving devices were invented by individuals not the government. And the ACA has a medical device tax in it. So let me get this straight we are letting companies know that if you want to invent something you have all the regular costs of inventing. Most of the time inventions fail so big out of pocket expense loss for business. Then when you go to sell you one product that is a winner you have all the normal taxes that every business pays in America. But you need to pay an extra tax now because it's a medical product. All this was suspended because at least a few people in congress realized that it might discourage one of our only strong export industry's in America. Taking a highly skilled labor force paying good family wages and potentially outsourcing it to China?

And as far as my doctors making to much money. If there is anyone I want overpaid it's my doctor. I don't want my doctor to be thinking about how they are going to budget next weeks food bill while he is prepping for a surgery, or thinking about drug interaction.



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Most of my friends are doctors, none of them underpaid, I think cheapest house out of all of them all is about 3 millions in today`s market.
Nothing is longer invented by individuals, no clue where did you get that idea.

 

[Gunslinger-13]

Sure. The government forces you to purchase these fine products:

• Paved roads
• Highways
• Local security
• National security
• Education
• Support for the poor and needy
• Scientific research

and an extensive list of further products nearly all of which is money each individual spends so that others may benefit.

I'm glad you asked this question.

Again we would be paying for those things and a host of other things without the government creating laws and legislation that creates greater waste, centralizes power and puts $$$ into the hands of politicians, and who they favor to run things or who they favor to contract with.

What I want,and what was meant for this country from the beginning is to have a LIMITED central government. L-I-M-I-T-E-D. That is not what we have now.

So let's discuss specific points.

Education.

Since the .gov has gotten into education, test scores have fallen across the board. The education system is a joke- because of the government interference.

If I want to send my kids to private school, I STILL pay for public education, if I don't have kids I STILL pay for public education. And the public education system isn't about "education" it is about getting kids to show up, that's how schools get most of their funding- based on participation and showing up- not on how well the students are educated and how good of a job the teachers are doing.

I could provide a much better education for my children through private schools or homeschooling, but since there are folks out there that don't care about their kids education/future, the government steps in and takes my money to baby sit them and provide them with the absolute lowest level of education possible, just move them along on to the next phase of life at someone else's expense.

You know why they don't do a voucher system? Because anyone with half a brain would be sending their kids to private schools and the public system would die a quick death. Then all that bloat and easy money would disappear and the union teachers would have to work for it based on merit and how well the children they teach perform. The insanity in such a system- no let's have the government do it horribly instead.

Now let's discuss social security. Oh the ineptitude.

So instead of having that money to invest as I see fit for myself, I am forced to give it to a government run system that absolutely sucks! There is no return on my investment, because it's a cash and carry ponzi scheme- it's just legal because it''s government mandated.

I could literally get a better return on my investment ANYWHERE else I decide to invest that money, and it would provide better security for myself and my family. But since there are folks out there that don't think of their future- I have to provide for it myself out of my hard earned money and work even harder to provide for my future- that ain't "Social security" that's theft.

Same thing with just about everything government touches. Private industry was doing a good job at it, but good'ole gummint can do it better so lets take it over. Then when it fails, they just didn't have enough gummint involvement, more government is the answer- FAIL!

So a LIMITED government is a beautiful thing, where there isn't enough power to create crony capitalism- what's ruining America right now.

When the government is limited and people need to fend for themselves we tend to thrive, people have personal responsibility, they educate themselves so they don't lose out on opportunity or get taken by the slicksters; there will still be those that are lazy and/or inept, but it isn't rewarded by the system.

When we have a huge government it always leads to crony capitalism, greasing of palms, favors, payouts, etc. It always leads to rewarding bad decisions.

It's interesting that churches did uch a fabulous job with charity, but the government succks at it. Could it be that the churches were more local to the communities they supported and thus had greater skin in the game?

When the govy takes taxes for redistribution- they cut pieces off the top, on several levels, you get less money going to the people that needs it, so you have to take more, and more and more to feed the beast. The beast being politicians that line their pockets and gain power through influence.

Why do you think Congress doesn't have to utilize Obamacare and has a separate system of healthcare for themselves? That's kind of telling right there.

One need not look any further than the deficit and debt we have right now, the unfunded liabilities we have. It's all so bloated it is inescapable. It will fall apart, and that is a direct result of government interference and ineptitude. Greed and power hungry politicians running up the bill for the next generation to take care of. It's abhorrent.

How can you claim that these systems are a success and run properly when they can't even pay for them without spending future dollars?

If a business were run like this government is it would have been out of business a long time ago.

It's funny how "bad" everyone says the care is here in America; because so many folks from all around the world come here for it. Even those Canucks with their socialised system of healthcare come down here and pay out of pocket so they aren't on waiting lists forever to get the care they need.

Open up insurance across state lines and let them compete, that will drive the cost down. Standardize the forms/paperwork involved with insurance/medical billing and that will drive the cost down. There are a ton of other issues that can be taken care of with LIMITED .gov involvement that would make a huge difference. But no, let's go through the same nightmare we have with all the other things Government has taken over and made worse, cost more and run poorly.

The real problem in healthcare is how people use it. Ouchy I cut my finger=- have to go get pain meds. Oh this darn cold I have to go see the doctor for cough syrup. Etc.

People go to the doctor for EVERYTHING. It's unnecessary.

There are LOTS of problems with healthcare, but the ACA was NOT an answer to any of them and has exacerbated all of them.

There was a very good reason for the Constitution and specifically the 10th Amendment. To define WHAT the Federal Government had authority over and that EVERYTHING else should be up to state Governments and the people themselves.

So, yeah I believe that most things should be handled by private industry; you know the folks that have to strike a balance of doing it right and not losing tons of money in the process.

It's as if people think the Government is doing something magical when they take our money and give it back to us in a poorly handled fashion.

If I were to tell you today that I could take your $10,000.00 dollars, and spend $4,000.00 of it on you and the rest went to taking care of spending that $4K on you- would you go for it?

How about if I said I'll take that $10K and then you will be in debt $20K, but get $4K worth of services?

^That sounds ridiculous right? That's what's happening with the Government running things.

How do you not see it for what it is?!?!?!?!?!

If the Fed.gov actually improved anything they get their hands into- I'd be all for it. But that isn't the case.

 

[RunninInGA]

Taken from: Forbes Welcome

Two scholars at the renowned Brookings Institution, Loren Adler and Paul Ginsburg, have published an analysis finding that “average premiums in the individual market actually dropped significantly upon implementation of the ACA [Affordable Care Act].” This contrasts with a plethora of evidence, including a rigorous 2014 Brookings study, showing that the ACA significantly increased premiums.

While I will discuss the relevant evidence of the ACA’s effect on premiums in depth, there are three data points worth emphasizing. First, unlike Adler and Ginsburg’s approach, Brookings 2014 study used actual data and found that “enrollment-weighted premiums in the individual health insurance market increased by 24.4 percent beyond what they would have had they simply followed…trends.” Second, S&P Global Institute found that average individual market medical costs increased substantially between 2013 and 2015, up an estimated 69%. Third, 2014 insurer data shows that premiums for individual market Qualified Health Plans (QHPs), ACA-compliant plans certified to be sold on exchanges, were much higher than premiums for individual market non-QHPs, mostly plans in existence before 2014 that did not comply with the ACA. Relative to non-QHPs, insurers collected more than $1,000 per enrollee in higher premiums and more than $2,300 in higher premium revenue per enrollee in 2014 after accounting for large premium subsidy programs for their QHPs.

While it is important to look at data for several years after 2013 to assess the impact of the ACA, comparing individual market premiums in 2013 with those in 2014—the year its key changes took effect—provides an approximation of the initial change. The Manhattan Institute compared the average of the five least expensive pre-ACA plans in 2013 with the least expensive plans available on exchanges in 2014. Manhattan’s researchers adjusted the pre-ACA plan premiums upward to account for the population facing surcharges or denied coverage because of a pre-existing condition. Manhattan estimated that the average state individual market premium increased 41% between 2013 and 2014. A county-level analysis suggested that premiums increased by 49%.

Economists at the University of Pennsylvania, also using actual pre-ACA individual market data, estimated that the total expected price of individual market coverage (premiums plus out-of-pocket payments) increased by 14% to 28% as a result of the ACA. According to their findings, “the pre-ACA average premium was lower than the lowest silver plan premium.” Penn’s economists also estimated that plans in the individual market before the ACA had similar actuarial value to silver plans, not an average actuarial value that was 10 percentage points less (and 17% less) than assumed by Adler and Ginsburg. Importantly, all of these studies compare gross premiums before and after the ACA without accounting for subsidies that lowered ACA plan premiums.

The data shows a huge increase in PMPM costs in the individual market between 2013 and 2015. According to S&P, PMPM costs increased 38% between 2013 and 2014, and another 23% between 2014 and 2015. The two-year increase (69%) is the product of the two single-year increases.

The comparable PMPM cost increase in the employer market, which the ACA affected much less, amounted to about 11%. Assuming an 11% increase would have happened in the individual market absent the ACA, a very rough initial guess would be that the ACA increased individual market PMPM costs by about 58% between 2013 and 2015. As previously noted, premiums did not increase by this full 58% because of insurers’ large losses and the large subsidies they received.

It is worth noting that the individual market includes both ACA-compliant plans as well as non-ACA-compliant plans. If only ACA-compliant plans were included in the post-2013 data, the spike would likely be much larger.

 

[Thefishguy77]

Most of my friends are doctors, none of them underpaid, I think cheapest house out of all of them all is about 3 millions in today`s market.

Nothing is longer invented by individuals, no clue where did you get that idea.

Well yes thing are still invented by individuals. It's usually someone's ideas that lead to inventions being developed by private companies. But private corporations is what I was meaning. Not government agencies. But private companies.

Edit. Autocorrect fail
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[Victor_inox]

Well yes thing are still in enter by individuals. It's usually someone's ideas that lead to inventions being developed by private companies. But private corporations is what I was meaning. Not government agencies. But private companies.


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Intellectual property invented by individuals while working for corporation owned by said corporation.
Health is biggest leverage someone can have over patients, we simply don`t have a choice or very little choice.

Government should be able to handle health care, like it does in Europe, japan,etc..
Check this list and tell me why is great country as this not on the list.
Capitalism as we know it in US has failed, it`s time for country to move on.

 

[Thefishguy77]

As to intellectual property. Yes if someone designs something at work or with work equipment it is the property of the company. If a owner of a small business invents it in his garage it is his. This happens all the time where an individual business aka small business invents something. Then either partners with a larger business to produce it or sells it. Usually if they partner it is not the property of the business they partner with unless that is in the contract. So tell me how an individual no longer invents something again?

As to why capitalism has failed in America it is because of government intervention in to it. Companies are too big to fail so the government makes sure they don't. The government takes bribes and write legislation to favor those that greased the palm. See gunslingers post for a great explanation of what actually happens when government runs things.

Socialized medical and government actually only works in small countries. Take Norway. It works there because if you fail to contribute as an individual then you are pretty much shunned but the citizens. I have friends and family that live there and grew up here. That is how they explained it. If you read gunslingers post he lays it out very well as to the cause and effect of government in business.

You seem to point out how well Europe and Japan work. What's stoping you from moving over there. Maybe move to Canada? Why do you have to change this country to make it like other countries you like when you don't have to reinvent the wheel. You just have to move.


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[Thefishguy77]

Intellectual property invented by individuals while working for corporation owned by said corporation.

Health is biggest leverage someone can have over patients, we simply don`t have a choice or very little choice.



Government should be able to handle health care, like it does in Europe, japan,etc..

Check this list and tell me why is great country as this not on the list.

Capitalism as we know it in US has failed, it`s time for country to move on.

Your quote about health being the biggest leverage you can have over someone. So your saying you want to give the government leverage over your health?


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[RunninInGA]

Intellectual property invented by individuals while working for corporation owned by said corporation.
Health is biggest leverage someone can have over patients, we simply don`t have a choice or very little choice.

Government should be able to handle health care, like it does in Europe, japan,etc..
Check this list and tell me why is great country as this not on the list.
Capitalism as we know it in US has failed, it`s time for country to move on.

I wouldn't say the European healthcare system is a model that has or is working. Ask the citizens of Great Britain how they feel about paying for healthcare on a local level when free movement between countries allows people to travel to areas where healthcare is better than others.

 

[Gunslinger-13]

Intellectual property invented by individuals while working for corporation owned by said corporation.
Health is biggest leverage someone can have over patients, we simply don`t have a choice or very little choice.

Government should be able to handle health care, like it does in Europe, japan,etc..
Check this list and tell me why is great country as this not on the list.
Capitalism as we know it in US has failed, it`s time for country to move on.

Crony capitalism is what we have right now- BECAUSE of Government interference, and it is absolutely a failure. Real capitalism works.

I don't want a European style healthcare system and it wouldn't work here, we aren't Europe. If that's what you want, you know where to get it. Safe travels.

I'm sick of people wanting to turn the USA into another Eurotrash country. You like that system so much, you like that country and how they do things so much, go be part of it. I wish you great success and happiness over there.

You don't like it here, well I do, you have the freedom to go where you are more pleased with the systems in place.


Comparing the USA to those other places is naive, as if it is an apples to apples comparison. It's not even close.

It's like when people talk about public transit in Europe versus the USA, saying we should do it the EU way- they are half baked- they don't even realize the size of our country versus those EU places. It's not apples to apples and it's not as simple as- they do it that way why can't we.

 

[Hepar]

Capitalistic systems fail for the same reason that socialistic systems do and it's not because of one or the other. It's because humans are the ones who run any and all of them. Until you can get greed and corruption out of those in power (no matter what system you believe in) you will not succeed. Which is why the best system is one that incorporates a bit of everything. But like with so much in the world (specifically in nature) the key is finding balance.

Koyaanisqatsi

 

[Victor_inox]

Crony capitalism is what we have right now- BECAUSE of Government interference, and it is absolutely a failure. Real capitalism works.

I don't want a European style healthcare system and it wouldn't work here, we aren't Europe. If that's what you want, you know where to get it. Safe travels.

I'm sick of people wanting to turn the USA into another Eurotrash country. You like that system so much, you like that country and how they do things so much, go be part of it. I wish you great success and happiness over there.

You don't like it here, well I do, you have the freedom to go where you are more pleased with the systems in place.


Comparing the USA to those other places is naive, as if it is an apples to apples comparison. It's not even close.

It's like when people talk about public transit in Europe versus the USA, saying we should do it the EU way- they are half baked- they don't even realize the size of our country versus those EU places. It's not apples to apples and it's not as simple as- they do it that way why can't we.

I have as much rights to be here as you are. I also believe that I have as much power as the next guy. So you can get the hell out yourself if you don`t like my way, realise how ridiculous that sounds?
You can chose to ignore reality and stick to your guns or you might start thinking why is god damn Denmark is number 1 and we are #13?
Running from the problem is not gonna fix anything....

Size of the country has very little with public transit as you presented, look at japan, how long you think it is north to south?3000kilometers, Yet they have best transit in the world. Perhaps we should stop driving gas guzzlers from cost to cost hauling our precious asses solo. I have 34 thousand miles on my 4runner in 4 years only because I use smaller car for long trips. I`d love to use train instead but it just doesn`t exist.
First step in fixing the problem is to realise that there is one.:drum:

 

[Victor_inox]

Capitalistic systems fail for the same reason that socialistic systems do and it's not because of one or the other. It's because humans are the ones who run any and all of them. Until you can get greed and corruption out of those in power (no matter what system you believe in) you will not succeed. Which is why the best system is one that incorporates a bit of everything. But like with so much in the world (specifically in nature) the key is finding balance.

Koyaanisqatsi

Amen!

 

[Gunslinger-13]

Capitalistic systems fail for the same reason that socialistic systems do and it's not because of one or the other. It's because humans are the ones who run any and all of them. Until you can get greed and corruption out of those in power (no matter what system you believe in) you will not succeed. Which is why the best system is one that incorporates a bit of everything. But like with so much in the world (specifically in nature) the key is finding balance.

Koyaanisqatsi

And that's exactly why I want a LIMITED government. Balance is key. When you have too much government, you get too much corruption.

No system is perfect, but let's face it socialism is BIG GOVERNMENT. That's not balance.

Capitalism in it's raw form is a free market with extremely Limited government interference. That is the best BALANCE we can hope for as human beings. We are not perfect,nothing is or can be perfect so you go with the BEST system for opportunity and prosperity. That's free market capitalism, with Limited Government.

You speak of balance at the same time as wanting more government- how does that work?

Knowing human beings mess things up, why would giving human beings more power in a centralized fashion over the lives of other human beings via bigger government be a good thing?

It's not, and that's why more government=more problems. Doesn't matter if it's social security, education, healthcare, etc. The more government power there is the more corruption there is and the worse things get.

I want the smallest amount of government with the greatest amount of individual liberty and freedom. That's the sweet spot for balance.

 

[Gunslinger-13]

I have as much rights to be here as you are. I also believe that I have as much power as the next guy. So you can get the hell out yourself if you don`t like my way, realise how ridiculous that sounds?
You can chose to ignore reality and stick to your guns or you might start thinking why is god damn Denmark is number 1 and we are #13?
Running from the problem is not gonna fix anything....

Size of the country has very little with public transit as you presented, look at japan, how long you think it is north to south?3000kilometers, Yet they have best transit in the world. Perhaps we should stop driving gas guzzlers from cost to cost hauling our precious asses solo. I have 34 thousand miles on my 4runner in 4 years only because I use smaller car for long trips. I`d love to use train instead but it just doesn`t exist.
First step in fixing the problem is to realise that there is one.:drum:

Yes, size of the country and population density have a lot to do with public transit, what works and is viable in NY will not work and be viable in WY for instance.

What we have here in the USA is special, changing it to what every other place is like is worthless, yep you have a right to be here, and so do I.

But why be here if you just want things to be like other places? Why force this change on others who don't want it?

Diversity. It's a good thing. I don't want every country to be the same just because there are folks who "feel" like it's a good idea.

 

[Victor_inox]

How small government really can be if every freaking county has one?
every city and every state?On top of that bloated structure we have federal.

 

[Hepar]

You speak of balance at the same time as wanting more government- how does that work?

Well, because I don't see it as a one or the other option. I don't want to see more government as a blanketed statement. Yes, there are plenty of areas where I do want to see more government, but arguably I see even more areas where I would like to see less.