Amount wasted on gas vs going hybrid or EV?

[Jetboy]

Musk is going all in for the EV game...Toyota (and many other car companies) are hedging their bets (which is why they only 10%). Hybrid cars (EV+ICE) seems to be a likely trend for the near future, so of course it makes sense for a company like Toyota to have some stake in battery production.



That's the main issue I have with what you are saying...much of it seems to be derived from your opinion. Please show me some sort of study/paper which indicates solar power could realistically supply 100% of the world's energy demands.

How much land is needed to power the U.S. with solar? Not that much | Fusion

It would take a few large counties worth of solar to power the entire USA. It's not nearly as much as many people think. It's easy math too, so you can check the calculations yourself. If you want to go a bit deeper into the weeds, you can use solar efficiency and irradiance numbers that are pretty widely available.

 

[mrbtd]

Keep in mind not all Hybrids are compact cars...For me a Hybrid was a logical choice..

I am the proud owner of an Avalon Hybrid...Full size premium car. I have driven it 48,000 miles since new in June of 2013.

At the time of purchase the Hybrid option was $3500 more.

To keep it terribly simple...At my 40 MPG average I used 1200 gallons of fuel. If I estimate 21 MPG average for the V6 based Avalon it would of been 2200 ish gallons of fuel or 1000 gallons more.

1000 X whatever you think the average price of fuel was over the last 2 years - I am now about even for the Hybrid option. Hybrid components are covered up until 100,000 miles and currently the resale is slightly higher than the gas version.


I traded a Sequioa for the Avalon because of the commuting we were doing running the kids around. The Sequioa averaged 17mpg - that is an ADDITIONAL 1600 or so gallons over the Avalon so I figured we saved about $4800 in fuel costs the last 2 years by switching.

For those wondering...Plenty of power in city and on Highway for everything I have needed it to. It is no problem at all to drive in the snow but the 4Runner is the obvious choice in bad conditions.

 

[BlackWorksInc]

It's not so much viability as much as cost, risk, and danger. The only reason solar is viable is die to subsidies, which offset high cost and competitiveness with semiconductors and allow politicians and corporations to overlook same production toxicity, pitiful efficiency, and low lifespan. Wave and wind power while viable pose potentional long term enviromental damage risks that we are just now realizing.

Why rush ancient, toxic, short lived, and inefficient technology when a new generation of better solar panels are almost market viewable. Only reason I see is wasting tax payer money, lining corporation's and politician's wallets and appeasing the Prius hipster crowd.

Something else to keep in mind is that there are a couple versions of solar power; I'm referring to photovoltiac cells, not solar thermal plants which are actually really efficient and environmentally sound.

 

[Dalko43]

How much land is needed to power the U.S. with solar? Not that much | Fusion

It would take a few large counties worth of solar to power the entire USA. It's not nearly as much as many people think. It's easy math too, so you can check the calculations yourself. If you want to go a bit deeper into the weeds, you can use solar efficiency and irradiance numbers that are pretty widely available.

This isn't really an academic paper or study, but rather an op-ed piece on a blog site...I think we are way off topic at this point, so maybe start up another thread if you have more to discuss.

 

[Jetboy]

This isn't really an academic paper or study, but rather an op-ed piece on a blog site...I think we are way off topic at this point, so maybe start up another thread if you have more to discuss.

Seems like the original question is pretty well answered.

FWIW here's a better source:
http://www.dlr.de/tt/Portaldata/41/...lance_of_a_Solar_Electricity_Transmission.pdf

And it's about the size of West Virginia to provide enough solar power for the entire world's energy - not just electricity - according to that study.

During the summer months Germany for example gets half of its total electricity from solar - and keep in mind Germany is both cloudy and rainy a lot, and about the same latitude as southern Canada. And it has about 90 million people. To compare California is much larger geographically and has 1/3 the population. With the same amount of solar California would probably provide more than half of its electrical energy for most if not all months of the year. And Germany built out its system in a pretty short time.

 

[1engineer]

This isn't really an academic paper or study, but rather an op-ed piece on a blog site...I think we are way off topic at this point, so maybe start up another thread if you have more to discuss.

Just let him keep posting. He will burn himself out eventually...

 

[Jetboy]

Just let him keep posting. He will burn himself out eventually...

Nothing to burn out. Some of us follow science. Some don't. And it's OK to be a global warming denier. It's OK to disbelieve in electricity. It's OK to pretend the Clean Power Plan isn't going to be a reality soon. It doesn't make them any less real. But you're certainly free to choose what you wish to believe in.

 

[1engineer]

Nothing to burn out. Some of us follow science. Some don't. And it's OK to be a global warming denier. It's OK to disbelieve in electricity. It's OK to pretend the Clean Power Plan isn't going to be a reality soon. It doesn't make them any less real. But you're certainly free to choose what you wish to believe in.

Dude, let it go. This is definitely not the forum nor the time.

 

[The Grand Wazoo]

Toyota seems to think he might be on the right track. It owns 10%.

don't forget that toyota has been producing electric forklifts, pallet jacks, ect. long before the ev/hybrid car craze.:wink2:

 

[BlackWorksInc]

Nothing to burn out. Some of us follow science. Some don't. And it's OK to be a global warming denier. It's OK to disbelieve in electricity. It's OK to pretend the Clean Power Plan isn't going to be a reality soon. It doesn't make them any less real. But you're certainly free to choose what you wish to believe in.

Just to point out, most of us aren't denying that alternative energy isn't a good idea and/or viable. But rather it is no where near as clean or "free" as people make it out to be and in many cases can be as polluting as current energy sources. The sudden craze and rush to be "green" has resulted in a lot poor decisions and further environmental, economic, and ecological damage because it's "implement first, ask questions later" attitude of the generally eco-ignorant and politicians. Most of your statements and counter points are in defense of renewable energy as a whole being worthwhile and the future; which I don't think anyone here is arguing against. Rather what everyone is pointing out is that the rush to be "green" without doing proper research, investment, risk analysis, and logical thinking; has resulted in just as much or more damage in some cases, than it would have been to stay the course we were on and develop next generation technology first... THEN implement it.

Post Note-

I don't care really at this point since this thread is pretty much about ecology/fuel mileage and the thread while a bit off-course is tangential and relative to the OP's statement. So far it's been a fairly civil discussion so I don't see any issue here; but we can always start a new thread in the Off-Topic section if you guys really want to keep it going. lol

 

[Toyfour14]

Where is the best website to see real world trade in values for my 4Runner?
NADA is one choice, but is it the best?

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

Where is the best website to see real world trade in values for my 4Runner?
NADA is one choice, but is it the best?

Use NADA. It's what every dealer I have ever went to uses. They don't seem to give a F*** what Edmunds.com thinks lol

 

[Toyfour14]

Use NADA. It's what every dealer I have ever went to uses. They don't seem to give a F*** what Edmunds.com thinks lol

Should I stick with the Clean Trade-in amount? Anything less means go away to another dealer?

 

[FrontRange4Runner]

Should I stick with the Clean Trade-in amount? Anything less means go away to another dealer?

They are not going to offer you the clean amount upfront. You will have to work for it. If you are looking to trade for something more fuel efficient (IE more abundant) then you should be shopping multiple dealers. Consider doing everything online. I recently got my girlfriends parents an awesome deal on a new Forester XT, and did ALL of the negation via email. Talked to multiple dealers, eliminated the higher priced ones, then set the reaming two against each other. It was really easy and no stress of some high pressure sales team. Oh and before you buy, use Truecar.com to get an idea of what people are paying in your area.

 

[nglayton]

but let's compare something like Highlander vs Hybrid Highlander.... is there still $7500 savings? Even if there is.... I think the same exact model of car has a $8000-10000 premium when you buy them new..... hence, you need 5 or 6 years of ownership just to break even in gas.

^^^THIS^^^

Simple math...just went through this with the wife and our last trade in. We wanted to go EV or hybrid, but the damn price is so high that there is ZERO saving because your monthly payment wipes out any perceived savings on gas.

Your either giving it to the gas station or the bank, totally your choice. If you figure in the interest rate, buying the EV/Hybrid is a loss.

Also try to consider the cost of gas fluctuates anyplace between $2-$4 per gallon depending on the time of year and Obama's politics. interest rate never changes unless you re-fi, incurring even more costs.

Where's the savings....? $17k for 7-3mpg? No thanks.

 

[Toyfour14]

They are not going to offer you the clean amount upfront. You will have to work for it. If you are looking to trade for something more fuel efficient (IE more abundant) then you should be shopping multiple dealers. Consider doing everything online. I recently got my girlfriends parents an awesome deal on a new Forester XT, and did ALL of the negation via email. Talked to multiple dealers, eliminated the higher priced ones, then set the reaming two against each other. It was really easy and no stress of some high pressure sales team. Oh and before you buy, use Truecar.com to get an idea of what people are paying in your area.

That's exactly what I do. I ask for an email from the sales manager that shows they agree they will match he price. I tell them about the trade in at the end. I have always used truecar and if they don't want to sell it to me at the estimate truecar gives I go elsewhere. Many dealers try and say that amount doesn't include the destination fee and it comes with a college grad discount which is bs.

 

[ic0517]

The latest Consumer Reports has an article about EVs, including the cost of the electricity, and including the pollution caused by the making the electricity. Also including gubment rebates.

(CR hates 4Runner, Xterra, Wrangler btw)

Then a recent article on the premier geek website Ars Technica had an article about the dropping price of batteries, faster than what was expected.

Whatever you are buying right now for an EV will be easily outclassed later. Let some other chump pave the way and you can reap the benefits at a later date.

My brother got some gas and plug in Ford Fusion (I think), and when he got to my (retired) mom's house, he wanted to plug it in, I thought that was rude.

As for me, in late 2012, I looked at the Camry Hybrid, trunk too small. I looked at the Prius V, can't fit three kids. Toyota Highlander Hybrid, you have to buy a Limited around Chicago, way too much money sitting around. The drive system on it is kind of cool, the gas motor is connected to the front tires, the electric to the rear, and the usual computer control on the gas pedal and brakes. I don't think the Avalon Hybrid existed.

I also made a spread sheet, down the columns is price of gas, along the top mpg, then take how much I drive in a year, calculate the price. Then compare cars. The difference wasn't that much because I drive less than 10,000 a year.

And the three kids, wife, and I can fit in the 4Runner, but I wouldn't want to drive to Colorado in it. In other words, a substitute for the minivan without damaging my precious male ego.

How come nobody makes a Hybrid or EV minivan?

 

[Toyfour14]

The latest Consumer Reports has an article about EVs, including the cost of the electricity, and including the pollution caused by the making the electricity. Also including gubment rebates.



(CR hates 4Runner, Xterra, Wrangler btw)



Then a recent article on the premier geek website Ars Technica had an article about the dropping price of batteries, faster than what was expected.



Whatever you are buying right now for an EV will be easily outclassed later. Let some other chump pave the way and you can reap the benefits at a later date.



My brother got some gas and plug in Ford Fusion (I think), and when he got to my (retired) mom's house, he wanted to plug it in, I thought that was rude.



As for me, in late 2012, I looked at the Camry Hybrid, trunk too small. I looked at the Prius V, can't fit three kids. Toyota Highlander Hybrid, you have to buy a Limited around Chicago, way too much money sitting around. The drive system on it is kind of cool, the gas motor is connected to the front tires, the electric to the rear, and the usual computer control on the gas pedal and brakes. I don't think the Avalon Hybrid existed.



I also made a spread sheet, down the columns is price of gas, along the top mpg, then take how much I drive in a year, calculate the price. Then compare cars. The difference wasn't that much because I drive less than 10,000 a year.



And the three kids, wife, and I can fit in the 4Runner, but I wouldn't want to drive to Colorado in it. In other words, a substitute for the minivan without damaging my precious male ego.



How come nobody makes a Hybrid or EV minivan?

I drive from WI to IL at least twice a month, but my work is very close. Snow is the enemy as you know for small compact cars, but I keep reading with snow tires it will be ok. Even in an suv with 4wd or awd you can't drive faster than normal. What worries me is getting stuck in the snow. That's my biggest fear.

Would have purchased a newer Prius if your situation was different?

 

[Dalko43]

FWIW here's a better source:
http://www.dlr.de/tt/Portaldata/41/...lance_of_a_Solar_Electricity_Transmission.pdf

I'll read this over...does this paper actually detail a feasible plan on how to supply the world's energy needs through Solar? If so, is there a specific section I should look at?

During the summer months Germany for example gets half of its total electricity from solar - and keep in mind Germany is both cloudy and rainy a lot, and about the same latitude as southern Canada. And it has about 90 million people. To compare California is much larger geographically and has 1/3 the population. With the same amount of solar California would probably provide more than half of its electrical energy for most if not all months of the year. And Germany built out its system in a pretty short time.

Okay, again I think you are making exaggerated claims...According to a recent 2014 paper, Germany only gets about 6.9% of its net electricity from solar sources.

http://www.ise.fraunhofer.de/en/publications/veroeffentlichungen-pdf-dateien-en/studien-und-konzeptpapiere/recent-facts-about-photovoltaics-in-germany.pdf (check out page 5)

 

[sooperedd]

The latest Consumer Reports has an article about EVs, including the cost of the electricity, and including the pollution caused by the making the electricity. Also including gubment rebates.

(CR hates 4Runner, Xterra, Wrangler btw)

Then a recent article on the premier geek website Ars Technica had an article about the dropping price of batteries, faster than what was expected.

Whatever you are buying right now for an EV will be easily outclassed later. Let some other chump pave the way and you can reap the benefits at a later date.

My brother got some gas and plug in Ford Fusion (I think), and when he got to my (retired) mom's house, he wanted to plug it in, I thought that was rude.

As for me, in late 2012, I looked at the Camry Hybrid, trunk too small. I looked at the Prius V, can't fit three kids. Toyota Highlander Hybrid, you have to buy a Limited around Chicago, way too much money sitting around. The drive system on it is kind of cool, the gas motor is connected to the front tires, the electric to the rear, and the usual computer control on the gas pedal and brakes. I don't think the Avalon Hybrid existed.

I also made a spread sheet, down the columns is price of gas, along the top mpg, then take how much I drive in a year, calculate the price. Then compare cars. The difference wasn't that much because I drive less than 10,000 a year.

And the three kids, wife, and I can fit in the 4Runner, but I wouldn't want to drive to Colorado in it. In other words, a substitute for the minivan without damaging my precious male ego.

How come nobody makes a Hybrid or EV minivan?

Check this out:

Nissan e-NV200

Read some stuff there is a good chance of this coming to the U.S.