Are you more Liberal or Conservative?

[004Gunner]

Who are you to tell me what is wrong to get offended by? You obviously are detatched from 9/11 in a way that I am not. I lost someone dear to me in that attack and the fact that you support the building of this mosque on one hand, but despise religion to the core on the other shows the duality of your personality. It's easy to play devil's advocate. Easy until someone disrespects your loved one's gravesite.



There's a reason that you're usually alone in these conversations. You can sympathize with the victims or you can sympathize with the religion that inspires these less-than-human, archaic terrorits to perform violence against innocent people.

I'm glad to have done all the reading and research on Islam that I've done. I can see how a person can be fooled and blinded by political corectness without divulging into the details of Islam.

I disagree with these statements on so many levels. It's this type of ultimatum type sentiment that shows how intolerant people can be. And he wasn't pointing out that you are wrong to be offended so much as he was pointing out the fallacies of your argument. The fact that you see duality in his position on the mosque doesn't follow. The reason that he has no religious identity is likely the reason that he does not care if a mosque is built near the 9/11 site. Does not oppose is not synonymous with support of. At least, this is how I feel.

To cross the arbitrary line of political correctness, I think that Islam has more violence rooted within it than Christianity or Judaism. There just seems to be more arguments in support of Islamic violence than there are ones against it. Now if you choose to practice the Islamic faith, then by all means don't let me get in your way. And if you happened to purchase some prime real estate viewed as hallowed ground in Manhattan to build your place of worship, again, don't let me get in your way. I think the decision to go ahead with this mosque and cultural center at the proposed location is a mistake, but I don't think that ANYONE should be allowed to stop it. So stop thinking with your heart when you should be thinking with your head.

 

[chiplee]

I did not care to read any of the above, but building the mosque so near 9/11 site is just plain stupid and insulting! I am a no-religion person...and, i don't give a rats ass about freedom anything BS that the proponent are yapping about...building the mosque so damn close is WRONG!

Why should anyone read what you wrote if you "didn't care to read any of the above?"

"Mosque" does not equal "terrorist memorial."

"Church does not equal "abortion clinic bomber memorial."

Absolutist insistance does not equal correctness.

 

[brian2sun]

I disagree with these statements on so many levels. It's this type of ultimatum type sentiment that shows how intolerant people can be.

I'm just stating my opinions. I take it as a compliment that you see my opinions powerful enough to compare them to ultimatums though. Intolerant? I'm not the one crashing planes into buildings. I will not tolerate the fact that they killed my loved one in the name of Islam and now want to tributize that site and turn the knife in the wound.

Traditional American religions are told how and where they can worship all the time and their rights are being trampled on a daily basis, but where are all of you when that stuff happens? Were you defending any 100 year old crosses from being removed from a park even though they are undeniably part of our history and tradition? Were you defending any students' rights to pray by themselves on a school campus? That's not even a public thing they're doing, but many schools do not allow it anymore. Isn't that an infringement on their human rights?

And he wasn't pointing out that you are wrong to be offended so much as he was pointing out the fallacies of your argument.

His exact words were "You're wrong to be offended by that". If he wanted to point out fallacies he can list them out, but telling me what I can be offended by while knowing nothing of my experiences with 9/11 is not effective.

The fact that you see duality in his position on the mosque doesn't follow... Does not oppose is not synonymous with support of.

That is a fundamental problem with your train of thought. To the enemies of America, complacency is the same as support. If you don't believe that their entire plan is to slowly infiltrate us and the Western world and take us down from the inside, you are nieve. They know they cannot win militarily; They know it's the only way they could possibly ever defeat the US. The sad part is you don't seem to see that.

The idea of a mosque at ground zero absolutely would not have even been even uttered in the wake of 9/11 while everyone still had their American flag stickers on their cars. And you and I both know that whether you'll admit it or not. But the complacent people of this country have let some time go by, most weren't directly affected by it, so now they've forgotten the inhumanity of it all. It's just history to them now, it doesn't hit home. Look how many people joined the service in the wake of 9/11 and look how many support our military efforts now. In the months that followed 9/11, a respected terrorism lecturer and government agent, political scientist, and close friend of mine and I were discussing how the American opinion of 9/11 and the war on terror will get watered-down as the years go by until it turns a 180 and the people will all but take the opposite side. And that's what's happening here. There's a science to all of this and history repeats itself. I know you are defending their rights to open a church, but you have to look at the bigger picture. See the forest through the trees as it were.

To cross the arbitrary line of political correctness, I think that Islam has more violence rooted within it than Christianity or Judaism. There just seems to be more arguments in support of Islamic violence than there are ones against it. Now if you choose to practice the Islamic faith, then by all means don't let me get in your way. And if you happened to purchase some prime real estate viewed as hallowed ground in Manhattan to build your place of worship, again, don't let me get in your way. I think the decision to go ahead with this mosque and cultural center at the proposed location is a mistake, but I don't think that ANYONE should be allowed to stop it. So stop thinking with your heart when you should be thinking with your head.

There are millions and millions of acres of land to put up a mosque in this country. You don't think there's an ulterior motive to them putting it right there? Seriously? My God. Our enemies absolutely love your train of thought.

 

[chiplee]

004Gunner,

I'll probably stick around for a bit to see where this goes, but at this point I've seen enough to know it's pretty futile to continue. I guess we continue at our own peril, and for me at least, against my better judgment. The "rules" (the intellectual field of strife rules) say to stop listening right about now. Enough inflexibility, thought bias, and intellectual dishonesty has been displayed to rightfully declare this conversation unworthy. In debate, both parties must be willing to change their minds if better information is made available to them. I see no sign of any such willingness. Your post was spot on, yet it had exactly zero impact. You were given no credit for making good points, and your words gave no cause for doubt among the "opposition".

Your points were salient, lucid, and intellectually honest. The fact that they weren't effective is telling. Ones and zeros style thinkers are easy to crush in debate, but also frustrating if you/we don't manage expectations. When they get something settled in their mind, no amount of reason will persuade them to reconsider. They're not debating. They're not defending their stance with an open mind to the possibility of them being wrong. It's been said that you can't reason a man out of a position he wasn't reasoned into, and I think your comment about thinking with the "heart" was very accurate.

I "follow" when you say something doesn't follow, but the concept of sequitur and non sequitur is about as far beyond this conversation as the concept of ad hominem and strawman argument apparently is. The rules will not be followed here, so I personally don't plan to continue generously offering my time to this unless I see the favor returned very soon. There are plenty of places to debate where everyone can be expected to obey debate law, know the language, and have the intellectual integrity to admit when their stance has been shown to be indefensible.

 

[chiplee]

I'm just stating my opinions. I take it as a compliment that you see my opinions powerful enough to compare them to ultimatums though. Intolerant? I'm not the one crashing planes into buildings. I will not tolerate the fact that they killed my loved one in the name of Islam and now want to tributize that site and turn the knife in the wound.

No one is asking you to tolerate the terrorists. Your conclusions don't match the data. Concentrate. The wife of the dead abortion doctor could just as easily say "I will not tolerate the fact that Christians killed my husband in the name of God." She could then proceed to try to prevent any churches from being built within two blocks of an abortion clinic. You would say that's ridiculous. I say your stance is ridiculous.

Traditional American religions are told how and where they can worship all the time and their rights are being trampled on a daily basis, but where are all of you when that stuff happens?

Doing the trampling. There is no need to protect the majority in this country. We must protect the minority from the majority. Traditional American religion is a cancer on the earth with every bit as violent a doctrine, and every bit as violent a history as Islam.

Were you defending any 100 year old crosses from being removed from a park even though they are undeniably part of our history and tradition?

No, they should be removed. No one is trying to build a Mosque on government property. Again, your logic is flawed. What "seems" sensible to you is always about two steps away from fully thought out.

Were you defending any students' rights to pray by themselves on a school campus?

I was unaware of any such instance. Do you have a reference? If someone was prevented from privately praying alone on a campus it was very wrong.

That's not even a public thing they're doing, but many schools do not allow it anymore. Isn't that an infringement on their human rights?

No interest in this until you provide a reference. It's news to me. My understanding was that students would be provided personal reflection time to do with as they please.

His exact words were "You're wrong to be offended by that". If he wanted to point out fallacies he can list them out, but telling me what I can be offended by while knowing nothing of my experiences with 9/11 is not effective.

I didn't tell you what you 'could' be offended by. I told you what you were wrong to be offended by, but 004Gunner completely understood my intent 100% accurately. Think more, decide less, and one day you'll understand too.

That is a fundamental problem with your train of thought. To the enemies of America, complacency is the same as support. If you don't believe that their entire plan is to slowly infiltrate us and the Western world and take us down from the inside, you are nieve. They know they cannot win militarily; They know it's the only way they could possibly ever defeat the US. The sad part is you don't seem to see that.

Thanks, Rush. Any more paranoid delusional blathering you'd like to share? two words dude. MUSLIM AMERICAN. There are millions of Muslim Americans, some who have faught and died to give you the right to sit here and say they (the evil terrorists who are exactly the same as ALL MUSLIMS) are trying to infiltrate "OUR" country, as if it's not also their country too. Seriously dude, slow your roll before you "offend" someone. You are equating Muslim with terrorist, and you HAVE TO STOP DOING THAT!!!!!!!

The idea of a mosque at ground zero absolutely would not have even been even uttered in the wake of 9/11 while everyone still had their American flag stickers on their cars. And you and I both know that whether you'll admit it or not. But the complacent people of this country have let some time go by, most weren't directly affected by it, so now they've forgotten the inhumanity of it all. It's just history to them now, it doesn't hit home. Look how many people joined the service in the wake of 9/11 and look how many support our military efforts now. In the months that followed 9/11, a respected terrorism lecturer and government agent, political scientist, and close friend of mine and I were discussing how the American opinion of 9/11 and the war on terror will get watered-down as the years go by until it turns a 180 and the people will all but take the opposite side. And that's what's happening here. There's a science to all of this and history repeats itself. I know you are defending their rights to open a church, but you have to look at the bigger picture. See the forest through the trees as it were.

Right, war on terror, not war on Muslims. If anything is clear, it's that I look at a bigger picture than you can possibly imagine.

There are millions and millions of acres of land to put up a mosque in this country. You don't think there's an ulterior motive to them putting it right there? Seriously? My God. Our enemies absolutely love your train of thought.

Again with the equating muslims with "our enemies" stuff. That's just not appropriate.

 

[Thai]

Why should anyone read what you wrote if you "didn't care to read any of the above?"

"Mosque" does not equal "terrorist memorial."

"Church does not equal "abortion clinic bomber memorial."

Absolutist insistance does not equal correctness.

I could care less if anyone read it...it was a statement of my opinion. But, i am glad that YOU read it. But, yeah, Mosque near 9/11 site is moronic and disrespectful. Hope you read this post too! :flipoff:

 

[chiplee]

I could care less if anyone read it...it was a statement of my opinion.

Oh but we should care if you thought our posts were worth reading? You're the one that made it a point to tell us you didn't care what we said.

As for your "it's just my opinion" comment, everyone has a right to their opinion, but they don't have the right to be taken seriously for it. I'm just expressing my "opinion" that unsubstantiated claims like the ones you made are not likely to be valued by anyone worth having your opinions valued by.

But, i am glad that YOU read it. But, yeah, Mosque near 9/11 site is moronic and disrespectful. Hope you read this post too! :flipoff:

On what basis? That it "seems" obvious to you? How convincing.

 

[chiplee]

Who are you to tell me what is wrong to get offended by? You obviously are detatched from 9/11 in a way that I am not.

If I am detached from it then it's my detachment that is allowing me to think clearly about the situation, but I don't think I'm detached. I went to war because of 9/11, and lost a squadron mate in preparation for that deployment. I would never disrespect him by using him as an excuse for feeling the way I do about the issue.

I lost someone dear to me in that attack and the fact that you support the building of this mosque on one hand, but despise religion to the core on the other shows the duality of your personality. It's easy to play devil's advocate. Easy until someone disrespects your loved one's gravesite.

Thousands of people died that day, and thousands of military men and women have died since. It doesn't have any impact on the facts.

Have you considered how far two diagonal blocks is in NYC?

There's a reason that you're usually alone in these conversations. You can sympathize with the victims or you can sympathize with the religion that inspires these less-than-human, archaic terrorits to perform violence against innocent people.

Ditto, you terrorist sympathizer you. You can sympathize with the victims of abortion clinic bombings, or you can sympathize with the religion that inspires the less-than-human, archaic terrorists to perform violence against innocent people.

I'm glad to have done all the reading and research on Islam that I've done. I can see how a person can be fooled and blinded by political corectness without divulging into the details of Islam.

Apparently you've researched Islam more than you've researched Christianity. Where should I start? One book of the OT will do for now. Let me know if you're a "The OT is fulfilled by the NT" Christian. That's not true, but if you believe it I'll just use the NT.

Instructions for buying a slave. Exodus 21:2

Instructions for selling your daughter. Exodus 21:7

Instructions for taking a second wife. Exodus 21:10

Children who strike their parents are to be killed. Exodus 21:15

It's OK to beat a slave as long as he lives a day or two "for he is his money." Exodus 21:20-21

"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." Exodus 22:18

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Sabbath breakers must be killed. Exodus 31:14-15, 35:2

Yes, clearly it is I who is "blinded and fooled by political correctness", since I've never delved into the details of "Islam". Please. Do you even consider it "possible" that you are blinded and fooled by your bias; by your upbringing, by what you take to be normal and acceptable and accepted? I mean you do know that it is "possible" to believe something that is false don't you? Do you know it's possible to accept something simply because "that's all you know", and it never occurred to you to doubt it?

I know the details of Islam, Christianity and Judaism, and I know them from an outside perspective that allows me to view them all without bias. I also know the three main monotheistic religions are all born of the same brutally violent abrahamic tradition, and that each is little more than a part and parcel plagiarism of the other. You seem to think Christianity is different from the others in some way. It's main difference from Islam is that it's older, and has therefore had more time to modernize. It was once every bit as horrible an influence on humans as Islam is today, and it still has the potential to be a terrible influence now.

 

[brian2sun]

Chiplee, You used disrespect and insults on intelligence to try to get your points across in your rebuttals to my statements above. You violated the same rules you've been scolding others for not abiding by. I know Muslim Americans are not terrorists, but all of the terrorists we are referring to are Muslims. They aren't Buddhists or Mormons. You even deny the Jihad has anything to do with Islam. Where exactly do you think the ideal came from? Do you even acknowledge that the terrorists we are fighting are Muslims? If not for Islam, what do you think they do it for?

You can't compare dozens of abortion clinic bombers to millions of Muslims who support terrorism (regardless that they are not in this country). There's no comparison there and that argument is weak IMO.

As far as prayer in schools, their personal reflection time just can't be with any religious symbolism. Calling it "personal" reflection time means being alone - A smooth way of taking away their right to gather with people who have the same interests spiritually. Why? Because it may offend somebody's rights to not have to be aware that others participate in activities that they don't? If you want newspaper articles, I don't have any for you. I go off what the people I know have told me they've dealt with.

 

[chiplee]

Chiplee, You used disrespect and insults on intelligence to try to get your points across in your rebuttals to my statements above. You violated the same rules you've been scolding others for not abiding by.

Where? I can see how it might feel that way, but I don't think I did that.

I know Muslim Americans are not terrorists, but all of the terrorists we are referring to are Muslims. They aren't Buddhists or Mormons.

I'm not saying we should be oblivious to the trend of violence in defense of Islam, but Pew polls are beginning to show lower tolerance for said violence among Muslims. We're making progress

You even deny the Jihad has anything to do with Islam. Where exactly do you think the ideal came from?

That's not even remotely close to what I said. Again, concentrate. I questioned the context in which you used "the Islamic jihad". There are 4 levels of Jihad; all originating from the Hadith, the "other" Islamic doctrinal text. Of course Jihad is an Islamic "ideal".

Do you even acknowledge that the terrorists we are fighting are Muslims? If not for Islam, what do you think they do it for?

If not for Islam they would find some other religion to do it for. Their problem is ignorance and fear more than anything.

You can't compare dozens of abortion clinic bombers to millions of Muslims who support terrorism (regardless that they are not in this country). There's no comparison there and that argument is weak IMO.

The hell I can't compare them. They are exactly the same in concept, only different in scale; a suitable comparison if ever there was one. At least I'm not comparing building a nazi memorial in auschwitz to building a Mosque 2 blocks from ground zero. I guess the loved one you lost on 9/11 is more important than the loved ones lost in abortion clinic bombings. I'm sure their families would disagree with you.

As far as prayer in schools, their personal reflection time just can't be with any religious symbolism. Calling it "personal" reflection time means being alone - A smooth way of taking away their right to gather with people who have the same interests spiritually. Why? Because it may offend somebody's rights to not have to be aware that others participate in activities that they don't? If you want newspaper articles, I don't have any for you. I go off what the people I know have told me they've dealt with.

I suggest you stop "going off what the people you know have told you" and start some research of your own.

 

[brian2sun]

I believe this discussion is in a stalemate now and we are mostly repeating ourselves at this point. Obviously you can't see where you broke the "rules", but calling me "Rush" is a fine example of using Ad Hominem. I have not done that to you or insulted your intelligence or comprehension - other examples of ad hominem. I could care less that you did that, I'm just saying, "practice what you preach".

I appreciate your Bible references, but I do feel they are a bit out of context when comparing them to current times. I don't practice any formal religion so I don't need to hear the other argument I'm sure you have ready in case I was a "NT fulfills the OT" guy. I do agree that Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have similar beginnings and all have all been violent throughout history. However radical Islam has not matured from that and is still a very large, violent faction in the world - not a tiny fraction of the population as abortion clinic bombers are.

The flaw I see in your abortion clinic bomber comparison is not just the scale. The bombers may call themselves Christians, but the church doesn't recognize them or condone that activity. They can't help it if some lunatic tries to align themselves with the church and say they did it for God or religion. The Christian church absolutely denounces it, unlike radical Islam. The Christian church isn't recruiting others for future bombings, unlike radical Islam. And the Christian church doesn't have incentive plans to reward them here and in the "after-life" for commiting terrorism, unlike radical Islam.

 

[Deceptiwave]

Well I'll throw my hat in there... I am very conservative. I am of the opinion that the US constitution is the supreme law of our country. I also am of the opinion that 90% of the the laws we have in this country are contrary to our constitution.
I think most people ( voters) are uninformed short attention span suckers. Look at our current administration, all from the banking industry giving away our taxes to other banksters. And do we see it on the news? Nope. Because our system of government is bought and paid for by the banks, and their owners like General electric (NBC) and Media Corp (fox).
We as a nation are in real trouble, our kids are in a bigger mess as they will be saddled with the new "globalization" debt that will be pushed on them.
I may be labeled all kinds of things, and thats OK, but I will stick to my God and my guns because they havent let me down.

 

[004Gunner]

I think most people ( voters) are uninformed short attention span suckers. Look at our current administration, all from the banking industry giving away our taxes to other banksters. And do we see it on the news? Nope. Because our system of government is bought and paid for by the banks, and their owners like General electric (NBC) and Media Corp (fox).

Agreed and I think that we, as a nation, are just now beginning to see the effects of media deregulation initiated by Reagan. Or maybe it's just now beginning to boil over.

Also, you can keep your God to yourself, but we're sharing the guns :

About that mosque

 

[Thai]

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/off-topic/71190-ny-mosque-near-ground-zero.html#post606956

 

[BROOKLYN]

i was a Liberal growing up when i was studying poly sci,but a few years back
i found myself becoming a hardcore Conservative.
liberals destroy this country and conservative are left cleaning there mess.

 

[chiplee]

I believe this discussion is in a stalemate now and we are mostly repeating ourselves at this point. Obviously you can't see where you broke the "rules", but calling me "Rush" is a fine example of using Ad Hominem.

What you said was basically a verbatim Rush Limbaugh quote, so you know, I just had to point it out. If that counts as a personal insult then stop having opinions that match Rush Limbaugh's.

However radical Islam has not matured from that and is still a very large, violent faction in the world - not a tiny fraction of the population as abortion clinic bombers are.

So, if the percentages were similar, could we discriminate against Christians like you want to discriminate against Muslims?

The flaw I see in your abortion clinic bomber comparison is not just the scale. The bombers may call themselves Christians, but the church doesn't recognize them or condone that activity.

It doesn't matter what the Church condones? The "Mosque" doesn't recognize or condone Islamist terrorist activity any more than the "church" condones Christian terrorist activity. What matters is what's in the books, and what people are likely to find when they go digging for "inspiration" in the dogmatic text they call "knowledge". They get their motivation straight from the pages of the Koran, just like abortion clinic bombers get their motivation straight from the pages of the bible. They think "the church" is leading them astray and that they are the only ones who "really get it, and really understand what has to be done". The mentality is the SAME.

They can't help it if some lunatic tries to align themselves with the church and say they did it for God or religion.

Are you trying to make my point or yours? "They" (peaceful Muslims and Islamic leaders) can't help it if some lunatic tries to align himself with Islam and say he did it for Allah.

The Christian church absolutely denounces it, unlike radical Islam.

So the Muslim equivilant to "The Christian Church" is "Radical Islam"? Again you equate Muslims with Terrorists. PLEASE STOP!!!! Aside from the fact that there is widespread Christian support for abortion clinic bombers and abortion doctor killers, the fact that "the church" denounces it, is beside the point. Islamic leaders also denounce terrorism.

The Christian church isn't recruiting others for future bombings, unlike radical Islam.

No, radical Christians are recruiting others, just like radical Muslims. So what don't you get?

And the Christian church doesn't have incentive plans to reward them here and in the "after-life" for commiting terrorism, unlike radical Islam.

Sure it does. The bible says that men who die for god are rewarded. The problem is just that you grew up in a predominently Christian society, so it all seems normal to you. You're making my point though, by saying "like 'radical' Islam does". Key word "radical". Radical Christianity is also terrifying, but the fact that there are radical Christians doesn't cause us to deny peace loving Christians their rights.


Honestly, my real problem is with the "reasons" most Americans want to prevent this Mosque from being built, vice the fact that they do. I too would like to prevent new religious buildings from being built, and I would like Islam to be the religion we start with when we start taking away religious freedoms. But I would do it on the basis of them being devisive and mind numbing organizations. Religions, especially Islam, are horrible intellectual cancers, and we should all stop tolerating them, starting with the most intolerant one, Islam. But that's not why people want to prevent the Mosque in NYC from being built. They want to prevent it from being built because they think their religion is the peaceful one, and they don't trust Islam. That just isn't adequate.

 

[brian2sun]

You've made strong points, but we disagree on the subject of radical Islam and how large that faction is in the world. You want to separate the terrorists from their religion and make them into people acting individually, but doing it in the name of religion (like abortion bombers). I see it as an entire sect of the religion that hasn't changed in centuries, that teaches hatred and death to the infidel, and they have been trying to eradicate the Jews as well as other races for thousands of years and continue to try to do so now. That is the reason I drew a comparison to Nazis earlier. I guess I should have noted that I was referring to radical Islam and not Muslim Americans, but I honestly thought that was understood in the beginning of this debate.

You may say to me, "If you know that Muslim Americans are different than radical Muslims, why does the mosque bother you?" I'll explain... I think the vast majority of Muslim Americans don't share the terrorists' view on how to deal with the Western world, but the fact that they participate and live in a free country like America, means to me they have branched out from the main religion and made a more tolerant sect that is allowed to enjoy the comforts of living in free countries like ours. Why am I still arguing?..

I am a realist and the fact that these Muslim Americans want to stir the pot of controversy and put their mosque there makes me question them and their motives. And it's offensive because I believe it's meant to be offensive. 2 blocks is just the closest they could get. If they could plop it down right on top of the twin towers site, they probably would.

As much as you may not think I'm capable, I do see your point that Muslims Americans should be able to enjoy the freedom of placing a mosque wherever they want to. If that was your main goal in this, then consider that a success chiplee. However, IMO their choice of location isn't just by chance and I'll stop being offended by it when I get a good explanation of why they want it there. They know it's a touchy subject. I'm arguing what the motive is behind it, not if they have the right to do it. The fact that the president fully supports it as opposed to just not taking a stand either way makes me question him. Why doesn't he think it's such a great idea?

If you are Muslim reading this and love this country as much as I do, I mean no offense and I'm not saying that you're not every bit as patriotic as the next American. But I ask you this: Why do you want to put it right there? If you are just stirring the pot, then that offends me and millions of other Americans. But if you give me a good reason, I may be led to change my mind.

 

[004Gunner]

The fact that the president fully supports it as opposed to just not taking a stand either way makes me question him. Why doesn't he think it's such a great idea?

But I ask you this: Why do you want to put it right there?

Even if the President thought it was a bad idea, he could not publicly express that thought and keep true to the oath of office to defend the constitution.

I understand your need to know and I'm sure many people feel the same way. But I don't expect answers where an answer is not required. And because it is not required, I hope one is not given.

 

[topdown4runner]

I'm a moderate and don't tow a party line just because a politician tells me to. Too much conservatism keeps this country from moving forward and too little creates it's own set of problems. Blind partisianship is not taking a smart approach.

Some republicans and democrats tow that line so hard they root for the opposition to fail even if it can help our country and only want their parties to succeed which really makes things difficult to proceed with much in this country. I see alot on the internet with Republicans rooting for Obama to fail no matter what which really seems silly since we all lose when the president fails no matter if he's republican or a dem.
I hope whatever party who has the majority control can move this country forward and if the Republicans have a better plan then I'm all open ears and mind but Bush really left a bad taste in my mouth for most of this decade.

Ditto, you saved me a lot of typing....

 

[Thai]

But then again, i would not call RonM a "moderate"....