Why doesnt it have the Tacoma on it? Isn't that supposed to come out before the 4R?
Best speculation of a 2023 6th generation I have seen
- Thread starter peter78
- Start date
Why doesnt it have the Tacoma on it? Isn't that supposed to come out before the 4R?
balong48
New member
Tacoma is not made in the Asia Pacific region so it is not on that sheet. It is listed on the North American production sheet.
Additional clarification: These sheets are where the vehicles are being made, not necessarily where they will be sold.
Attachments
Last edited:
TheSpinDoctor
New member
Toyota has always produced a 3-door LC Prado alongside the 5-door version.
The 3-door Prado (J150) is still sold today in some countries as evidence from this video.
It remains to be seen whether the next generation's 3-door Prado (J180) variant will be sold in North America or even reintroduced in Australia (the 3-door J150 left that market in 2013).
As for Toyota introducing a more rugged vehicle to compete with Wranglers and Broncos, the rumor has been floating for a while. More than the LC Prado, some people actually believed that the Lexus GX would fill that role.
Over the Lexus forum and in his post #44 in this thread, our friend Carmaker1 provided some info on the upcoming Lexus GX, and the first mention of a more rugged Lexus GX (to my knowledge).
Here's the key quote from one of his post from September 2021:
For reference, Balong48's Asia production sheet indicates that the GX will start production early in October 2023, which is probably too tight of a timeline to get the GX in dealerships before the end of 2023.
And all this got me thinking about the J180 LC Prado 3-door, its possible introduction in North America, or even a more closely related 4Runner/LC Prado/Lexus GX 5-door versions than what Toyota currently offers.
Again, I must stress that I'm just speculating and odds are that Toyota will do something else.
The 3-door Prado (J150) is still sold today in some countries as evidence from this video.
It remains to be seen whether the next generation's 3-door Prado (J180) variant will be sold in North America or even reintroduced in Australia (the 3-door J150 left that market in 2013).
As for Toyota introducing a more rugged vehicle to compete with Wranglers and Broncos, the rumor has been floating for a while. More than the LC Prado, some people actually believed that the Lexus GX would fill that role.
Over the Lexus forum and in his post #44 in this thread, our friend Carmaker1 provided some info on the upcoming Lexus GX, and the first mention of a more rugged Lexus GX (to my knowledge).
Here's the key quote from one of his post from September 2021:
For reference, Balong48's Asia production sheet indicates that the GX will start production early in October 2023, which is probably too tight of a timeline to get the GX in dealerships before the end of 2023.
And all this got me thinking about the J180 LC Prado 3-door, its possible introduction in North America, or even a more closely related 4Runner/LC Prado/Lexus GX 5-door versions than what Toyota currently offers.
Again, I must stress that I'm just speculating and odds are that Toyota will do something else.
Last edited:
Carmaker1 posted in this thread September of 2021 predicting a US bound Land Cruiser would be sold for MY2024.5
He's also revealed the the Lexus GX is getting a new design ethos were it's supposed to be more hardcore and compete better against the G-class and Defender.
Outside of Carmaker1, there have been growing rumors of a Land Cruiser that is meant to better compete against the Bronco and Wrangler. How valid these are -- I don't know.
My personal prediction is Land Cruiser nameplate that is returning to the US is not actually the J300 series but is actually the future redesigned Prado. It may be coincidence but as we know the GX is a Prado. The fact that the GX is expected to become more off-road oriented - G-class/Defender competitor and this rumored Land Cruiser Bronco/Wrangler fighter AND their October/November 2023 SOP as shown in [MENTION=110786]balong48[/MENTION]'s build sheet matches up with Carmaker1's MY2024 US Land Cruiser release seems too uncanny. Not saying it'll become true but just interesting to see how it all lines up.
It wouldn't be a brand new SUV. The idea is it's just a USDM Prado. A cheaper more utilitarian GX that would sit above the 4Runner and could compete with the 400HP, front and rear locked, 33" and 35" tires Broncos and Wranglers.
It may sound like overlapping product categories but with TNGA-F, we have seen these products become even more closely related than ever before. It wouldn't cost Toyota much engineering dollars to get it certified for US regulations.
I think Toyota knows they were too early to the market with the FJ Cruiser and want back into that segment. A smaller Land Cruiser would be a perfect way to capture that market again.
Last edited:
TexasFunRunner
New member
To me it does not make sense to only bring a smaller 3 door to market. Only about 10% to 20% of Jeeps and Broncos are 3 door, that would be leaving 80% of the market money on the table.
Likewise, to say Lexas will compete against the Land Rover and the Jeep/Bronco makes no sense, those are two different price point markets. IF there is a new rugged model that is intended to compete against the Jeep/Bronco, it would be wearing a Toyota nameplate.
Call it FJ Cruiser 2.0 with a new name.
TheSpinDoctor
New member
I agree that bringing just a 3-door vehicle to compete with Wranglers and Broncos doesn't make financial sense. There's a clear need for a 5-door version as well, as 4Runner sales prove each year.
My issue is that the 4Runner and 5-door LC Prado are way too similar in capabilities and market base in their current respective generations. Maybe the 6th generation 4Runner and J180 Prado will differ more than what we're used to.
If they really differ from the 4Runner, both 3 and 5-door versions of the upcoming Prado can take on Wranglers and Broncos.
If they don't differ that much, then the 4Runner and 5-door Prado risk cannibalizing each other's sales.
What would be the best path for Toyota to differentiate the 4Runner and 5-door Prado in terms of purpose, capabilities, market, price?
TexasFunRunner
New member
Similar to the market proposition when the FJ Cruiser was introduced in 2007, different style, etc.
Give it optional full lockers front and rear and a laundry list of off-road features, functions and options.
Give it the option to be fixed or removable roof, and a full range of other options for the 90% that will never take it off-road. The price can overlap with the 4Runner since they serve different niches.
Last edited:
Jetboy
New member
I don't think Toyota really gets the market here. IMO the new tundra was marginal effort. It has a lot of great things engineered into it - namely the ability to easily fit 37's and a very good OEM lift for $2500. But it's also really late to the game and already far behind everyone else in development of EVs etc. And the real world fuel economy is not very good by most reports I've read. It's only marginally better than the outgoing v8 that IIRC was first mentioned near the end of the New Testament. I was really hoping for legitimate mid 20's and/or a PHEV version.
I don't expect Toyota to go chasing broncos and wranglers. It's far too conservative. I hope we don't get another FJ cruiser - ie. shortened 4Runner with poor visibility and compromised access door setup. Shorter wheelbase isn't what we need. There's almost no benefit to having a 100" wheelbase and very few people are buying 2 door broncos or wranglers. Although I'd love to see the top come off - it's not a deal breaker IMO.
I think Toyota should just offer a TRD Pro 4Runner with the full running gear from the LC300. Now that they share a platform, it should be pretty straight forward to do. It's the axles and steering that it needs to handle the bigger tires. The LC300 GR Sport Diesel comes double locked, KDSS, for $76k USD in Japan. No reason at all a TRD Pro 4Runner couldn't come in the USA with the cheaper TTV6 gas engine, double lockers (but very importantly IMO also with the LC300 running gear and steering components) for $65k. Yeah - it's probably too expensive. But if you could then basically just bolt on 37's - it would go head to head with the Bronco and Wrangler and probably out-perform them in many situations.
Or just sell the base model LC300 for $46k (Japan base model price) and let me figure it out from there? As long as the body clearance is similar to the Tundra/sequoia and 37's are an easy fit, I'd rather setup my own suspension and I can source my own lockers.
What I actually think we'll see: A turbo 4cyl 4Runner with a hybrid option, OEM tires no larger than 285/70/17 if that, and an 8 speed transmission. 22mpg (less than the sequoia) in base form. Starting price of $45k for a 4x4 SR5 model. If we're lucky - auto headlights! Yeah, I said it, automatic f'n headlights!
Also - just FWIW - the 4Runner, FJ Cruiser, and Prado models are all sold together in some markets along with the slightly smaller fortuner. The 4Runner is the most expensive of the 150 series siblings. Toyota has no problem cannibalizing's sales with a shit-ton of very close models in the same markets. Case in point: Corolla cross (104), NX (106), Rav4 (106), Venza (106), BZ4X (112), RX (110), RXL (110), Highlander (112). That's 8 different CUVs within 8 inches of wheel base difference. In the case of Rav4, NX, and Venza there are 3 with the exact same wheel base and platform, possibly somewhat ironically the Toyota models are the more luxurious and the most powerful of the 3 triplets. I'm not really sure who the NX market is.
I don't expect Toyota to go chasing broncos and wranglers. It's far too conservative. I hope we don't get another FJ cruiser - ie. shortened 4Runner with poor visibility and compromised access door setup. Shorter wheelbase isn't what we need. There's almost no benefit to having a 100" wheelbase and very few people are buying 2 door broncos or wranglers. Although I'd love to see the top come off - it's not a deal breaker IMO.
I think Toyota should just offer a TRD Pro 4Runner with the full running gear from the LC300. Now that they share a platform, it should be pretty straight forward to do. It's the axles and steering that it needs to handle the bigger tires. The LC300 GR Sport Diesel comes double locked, KDSS, for $76k USD in Japan. No reason at all a TRD Pro 4Runner couldn't come in the USA with the cheaper TTV6 gas engine, double lockers (but very importantly IMO also with the LC300 running gear and steering components) for $65k. Yeah - it's probably too expensive. But if you could then basically just bolt on 37's - it would go head to head with the Bronco and Wrangler and probably out-perform them in many situations.
Or just sell the base model LC300 for $46k (Japan base model price) and let me figure it out from there? As long as the body clearance is similar to the Tundra/sequoia and 37's are an easy fit, I'd rather setup my own suspension and I can source my own lockers.
What I actually think we'll see: A turbo 4cyl 4Runner with a hybrid option, OEM tires no larger than 285/70/17 if that, and an 8 speed transmission. 22mpg (less than the sequoia) in base form. Starting price of $45k for a 4x4 SR5 model. If we're lucky - auto headlights! Yeah, I said it, automatic f'n headlights!
Also - just FWIW - the 4Runner, FJ Cruiser, and Prado models are all sold together in some markets along with the slightly smaller fortuner. The 4Runner is the most expensive of the 150 series siblings. Toyota has no problem cannibalizing's sales with a shit-ton of very close models in the same markets. Case in point: Corolla cross (104), NX (106), Rav4 (106), Venza (106), BZ4X (112), RX (110), RXL (110), Highlander (112). That's 8 different CUVs within 8 inches of wheel base difference. In the case of Rav4, NX, and Venza there are 3 with the exact same wheel base and platform, possibly somewhat ironically the Toyota models are the more luxurious and the most powerful of the 3 triplets. I'm not really sure who the NX market is.
Last edited:
balong48
New member
I think the problem with the Tundra was that it wasn't designed to compete with the trucks that are out today. If I remember right from what I've read it was mostly designed and ready by 2019 but delays with the NGA-F platform kept pushing it back. So really it was designed to compete with trucks back in 2019, not what we see today. I'm guessing that has to do with it being outdated upon arrival. As for MPGs, my guess is the phasing out of the V8 was mostly for smog purposes, just like the Highlander losing the V6.
Also if I remember right, Toyota North America has to fight Toyota Corporate to keep building the Tundra, Tacoma, 4Runner, and Sequoia because corporate doesn't really like the existence of them.
TexasFunRunner
New member
Jetboy
New member
IMO - it doesn't compete in the marketplace with the TRX or Raptor very well IMO. At least as I view the market as one for predominantly street show trucks with desert race styling. And it's not going to be a very close competitor on a drag strip. On an actual desert race track - the old tundra is an easy favorite to beat the Raptor. The raptor is not very good at desert racing in actual race conditions. The Tundra is (was).
Too early to know much about the current gen Tundra. All we really know is 37's are super easy to fit. Toyota has a proper lift kit with extended arms and front axles that should be good for about 12-14" travel (very comparable). But power is way down vs Raptor or TRX. And no front locker. Durability is where the Raptor usually fails in desert races - it rarely makes it to the finish line. Not sure how the new Tundra will hold up. I don't think the TRX has ever been entered into a competitive desert race that I know of.
The Tundra Trailhunter supposedly will be an OEM option next year. I think that goes a bit of a different route vs a Raptor, but it'll potentially be something very competitive with a Ram Powerwagon for lower speed adventure trucks (car camping).
I have a bet with a buddy. He says the Scout will not be released by 2026.
mtn_climber
New member
From Scout's site: "By combining an entrepreneurial spirit with the backing of the Volkswagen Group, Scout Motors will unveil its first prototypes in 2023 and begin production in 2026."
If Scout nails the engineering (specifically finds a way to eek out a legitimate 300+ miles on a full charge), the vehicles might be pretty interesting as offroad alternatives to petrol/diesel-powered rigs. Anyone remember the original VW Toureg and Porsche Cayenne? They were offroad beasts. They were also expensive, and one could assume the Scouts will be as well.
All that said: I'm still looking forward to the 6th Gen T4R.
I had a 2010 Touareg TDI. It was awesome and if VW were to bring it back I would buy it tomorrow.
What I had read is that VW intends to make the Scouts affordable - so I would be shocked if we see Rivian level pricing. I had read starting around 50k.
What has drastically changed in the "normal" 1500 truck lineup that it competes with across manufacturers from 2019 to now? Excluding TRX, Raptors, etc. which it doesn't compete with anyway.
It's a 1500 competing with other 1500s with finally good tech. What's it missing or where is it outdated? Chevy has been using the same V8 engines for 417 years, Ram's Hemi for 245, and Fords ecoboosts and 5.0 have been out for 228 years, respectively. A 2 engine option lineup thats TTV6 and one with a hybrid with a ton of power seems pretty standard in todays world.
People had high hopes the new Tundra Hybrid would be a Toyota-quality Ford Powerboost but ended up falling short. Worse gas mileage, no generator option, no A4WD.
The Tundra is still a great truck but it has always been behind the Big 3. The full-size truck segment is arguably the most important segment in the US so it's no surprise how quickly the American makes improve their trucks.
Last edited:
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that with the Powerboost aside from the generator. I agree it's a great feature, but it's a feature only one automaker is doing. MPG in any truck is going to be mediocre. A quick search has numerous articles of testers with considerably worse mpg than what Ford claims for the powerboost too. I'm sure there's conflicting data everywhere, but a few mpg wouldn't persuade my decision. Auto 4wd is useless on a truck in my opinion, especially if mpg is important to you. It's also not the standard on most 1500 trucks.
Maybe I like the Tundra more than most or maybe I have lower expectations on new models. I think the Tundra check's the boxes it needs to. I guess my point is still that I don't feel the Tundra is behind to the powerboost enough to warrant buying the Ford over the Toyota.
Last edited:
