Buyer Beware - Moog LCAs

[roborob1969]

Ok, this may be my first mistake, buying Moog brand Lower Control Arms -- but wanted to post here in case anyone else was thinking about replacing their LCA's with Moog brand.

I have a 2011 4Runner SR5 without KDSSS and purchased the Moog RK620061 and RK620062 LCAs as replacements because my bushings are starting to go bad (96K miles). I decided to go with an entire replacement because I thought that I might as well get new ball joints (included with the Moogs). -- plus labor was a lot cheaper than replacing just the bushings and ball joints.

Anyway - while in the shop, I got a call telling me that the OEM camber bolts were not fitting into the new Moog arms. It turns out that the OEM bolts are 19mm for the front and 16mm for the back, while the Moog has 19mm in front and 14 mm in back!

Even with 19mm supposedly being the "correct" on the Moog, the OEM camber bolt still did not fit through the bushing.

I decided then to buy the Moog brand Camber Bolt Alignment Kit (K100129) -- which again did not fit in the back bushing and the front bolt did go through, but it was very loose, even with the bolt sleeve on!

I called Moog directly, and they did confirm that this is an issue and put in a ticket to get addressed -- but who knows how long that will take.

Long story short - do not get Moog LCA's!

These are the applications that RK620061 and RK620062 would apply to:
Lexus GX470 2003 thru 2009
Toyota 4Runner 2WD - 2003 thru 4WD - 2016
Toyota FJ Cruiser 2WD - 2007 thru 4WD - 2014

Side Question: If someone else hear has replaced their LCA's, what brand did you go with, and can you confirm that the OEM camber bolts fit properly?

 

[MN4runnerman]

Just a side note Moog bought out Mevotech a few months ago so what you might think is a moog control arm it could very well be mevotech(cheaper brand). We (my work) reboxed mevotech parts into brand new moog boxes when that happened.

 

[Engineer]

You might be able to pick up a set of used OEM arms from folks here who have went LT. [MENTION=124732]LawnDart[/MENTION] maybe

 

[Jono.ful]

Total Chaos, oem alignment bolts fit great

 

[wfo9]

This is because the 2010+ lower control arms are a little different than the previous 120 platform control arms.

If you look at the OEM part numbers they are different.
5th gen Left 48069-60040
4th gen Left 48069-60010


Also if you you do a cam tab gusset kit from TC... the 2010+ version is different.

The aftermarket parts often miss these changes since the majority of the suspension is the same.

 

[Ducmonsta]

This is because the 2010+ lower control arms are a little different than the previous 120 platform control arms.

If you look at the OEM part numbers they are different.
5th gen Left 48069-60040
4th gen Left 48069-60010


Also if you you do a cam tab gusset kit from TC... the 2010+ version is different.

The aftermarket parts often miss these changes since the majority of the suspension is the same.

[MENTION=106176]wfo9[/MENTION] Droppin' some knowledge! :thumb3:

 

[roborob1969]

This is because the 2010+ lower control arms are a little different than the previous 120 platform control arms.

If you look at the OEM part numbers they are different.
5th gen Left 48069-60040
4th gen Left 48069-60010


Also if you you do a cam tab gusset kit from TC... the 2010+ version is different.

The aftermarket parts often miss these changes since the majority of the suspension is the same.

ugh... well, that would explain it! Now I have fight a battle with StockwiseAuto to get a refund.

TCs arent in the budget yet, so may go with OEMs for now.

 

[roborob1969]

Just a side note Moog bought out Mevotech a few months ago so what you might think is a moog control arm it could very well be mevotech(cheaper brand). We (my work) reboxed mevotech parts into brand new moog boxes when that happened.

Interesting ... Wish companies would disclose information like this.

 

[MN4runnerman]

Interesting ... Wish companies would disclose information like this.

There are 2 different numbers for moog control arms. There is a CK# and those are moog and then there is the RK# that are cheaper and were the ones that we reboxed. I don't know if there are any LCA's for the 4Runner in moog CK#'s. I'll look when I go to work.

Edit: the CK# control arms are not made for the 4Runner.

 

[Jeremy556]

What makes you think your stock bushings are bad? They probably are not.

 

[wfo9]

What makes you think your stock bushings are bad? They probably are not.

Agree, the LCA bushing move some when they are brand new... this throws a lot of people and techs off into thinking they are bad... It "can" be normal....

 

[BlackWorksInc]

This is because the 2010+ lower control arms are a little different than the previous 120 platform control arms.

If you look at the OEM part numbers they are different.
5th gen Left 48069-60040
4th gen Left 48069-60010


Also if you you do a cam tab gusset kit from TC... the 2010+ version is different.

The aftermarket parts often miss these changes since the majority of the suspension is the same.

I forget if the actual cams are larger than the 4th gen/J120 units, but the bolts and diameters are a bit different (as are the torque specs). The arms are physically the same if I remember right, it's the bushings in them that are different (mainly the inner diameters where the cambolts/sleeves go through as you've found out.)

What makes you think your stock bushings are bad? They probably are not.

I have to agree with Jeremy, I highly doubt your LCA bushings are torn up/worn after only 96k on a relatively stock vehicle. My LCAs on my 4th gen were there 10yrs, 120k, and 20k of that was heavy off-roading with tons of extra weight (first 33's, now 35's, full steel bumper, skids, ect.) and they still were relatively attached when I took them off (though decently worn.)

What makes you think they were worn in the first place?

 

[roborob1969]

What makes you think your stock bushings are bad? They probably are not.

What makes you think they were worn in the first place?

Good question. I was hearing cluncking noises while driving the pot-hole stricken-ed I-35, here in Dallas. When I took it in to a shop (Drivers Edge) to get checked out, they inspected all sorts of things .. the only thing they came back with was that the LCA bushings on the driver side were going bad. They had me come into the shop to let me "feel" the LCA while the vehicle was rocked side to side -- around the bushing area I could feel/hear some popping/vibrations --- compared to the passenger side. Then to validate, they used a stethoscope that had this rod at the end, and wedged in close enough to the bushing to listen for abnormalities.

I admit, I'm a total noob when it comes to all this, so I'm really basing it on what the mechanics told and showed me. They really weren't trying to sell me on anything because they gave me options I could go with -- either with their shop or not -- of replacing just the bushings or going with new LCAs.

What do you all think? Is there a way I can tell myself if they are bad?

Edit: Also, I bought this 4Runner used, this past Feb 2016 with 86K miles, so I have no idea what the previous owner did

 

[SC01]

This is because the 2010+ lower control arms are a little different than the previous 120 platform control arms.

If you look at the OEM part numbers they are different.
5th gen Left 48069-60040
4th gen Left 48069-60010


Also if you you do a cam tab gusset kit from TC... the 2010+ version is different.

The aftermarket parts often miss these changes since the majority of the suspension is the same.

So, does that mean the Moog camber bolts will not correctly fit 2010+ OEM LCA's? I ask b/c [MENTION=91865]roborob1969[/MENTION] just sold me these bolts that he referenced in OP. I've got the seized bolt issue on mine and trying to find most cost effective route, which does includes not buying any LCA's at all.

 

[roborob1969]

So, does that mean the Moog camber bolts will not correctly fit 2010+ OEM LCA's? I ask b/c [MENTION=91865]roborob1969[/MENTION] just sold me these bolts that he referenced in OP. I've got the seized bolt issue on mine and trying to find most cost effective route, which does includes not buying any LCA's at all.

The camber bolts weren't the issue. It was that Moog LCA's that were off spec. The diameter of the bushings were too small, not allowing for both their camber bolts nor oem bolts to fit. When I spoke to Moog, they confirmed that there was indeed an engineering issue (surprised they haven't updated specs).

I'll gladly refund you the $ if you find that the camber bolts won't fit -- but I have a feeling that they should Just let me know.

found pics from the mechanic...

 

[Jetboy]

The lower coilover bolt is a 12mm on the 120 platform and 14mm on the 150. So your coilover also would not have fit had you gotten that far. Any LCA or front coilover that claims to fit 07-09 FJ Cruisers or the 03-09 4Runner will not directly fit the 10+ for this reason.

Also - FWIW typically LCA bushings should not go bad that quickly. However - they are rubber bushings that are designed to flex. They do not pivot on the LCA bolts themselves. They are intended to rely on the rubber's flex. So the bolt clamps the mounting tabs to the steel inner tube and it does not move with the arm. What can happen is that a repair shop doesn't install them properly or an alignment shop doesn't torque the bolts down while the vehicle is sitting with the control arm in the middle of its range of motion. If they clap down the lower control arm bolts at full droop for example, then the lower control arm will exceed the normal range of flex of the rubber bushing when the tire is compressed. Over time that can lead to a rubber bushing failure. This is one reason that polyurethane bushings that are greased and slide rather than flex can be better for long travel suspension. Rubber offers its own benefits such as quiet operation, more vibration dampening, and generally a more comfortable ride. Anyway - that's a possibility of why you might have a premature rubber bushing failure from the past owner. Otherwise it's pretty darn early to see a bushing like that go bad.

 

[shahsmerdis]

The lower coilover bolt is a 12mm on the 120 platform and 14mm on the 150. So your coilover also would not have fit had you gotten that far. Any LCA or front coilover that claims to fit 07-09 FJ Cruisers or the 03-09 4Runner will not directly fit the 10+ for this reason.

Also - FWIW typically LCA bushings should not go bad that quickly. However - they are rubber bushings that are designed to flex. They do not pivot on the LCA bolts themselves. They are intended to rely on the rubber's flex. So the bolt clamps the mounting tabs to the steel inner tube and it does not move with the arm. What can happen is that a repair shop doesn't install them properly or an alignment shop doesn't torque the bolts down while the vehicle is sitting with the control arm in the middle of its range of motion. If they clap down the lower control arm bolts at full droop for example, then the lower control arm will exceed the normal range of flex of the rubber bushing when the tire is compressed. Over time that can lead to a rubber bushing failure. This is one reason that polyurethane bushings that are greased and slide rather than flex can be better for long travel suspension. Rubber offers its own benefits such as quiet operation, more vibration dampening, and generally a more comfortable ride. Anyway - that's a possibility of why you might have a premature rubber bushing failure from the past owner. Otherwise it's pretty darn early to see a bushing like that go bad.

damm perfect explanation

there is no reason not to use oem for stock setup.

 

[SC01]

[MENTION=91865]roborob1969[/MENTION] pm'd

 

[DesertCanyons]

Total Chaos LCA

I just looked at the Total Chaos lower control arms on their website. The have a few different sizes and types for the 5th Gen T4R. The 2" Race Series Kit LCA increases the track width by 4" total (2" each side, no duh right). The 3.5" increases the track by 7". I could not tell why anyone would want to increase the track width as much as 7" unless you were racing off road or wanted a radical look that would be hard to park in a narrow space. It has other benefits for long travel suspension and a mount for a secondary shock.

Total Chaos does not list the price of these, AFAIK. The price would be available on retail sites like Total Auto Performance LV or Wheelers.

TOTAL CHAOS FABRICATION - 2010+ FJ Cruiser 2WD & 4WD2010+ 4Runner 2WD & 4WD Long Travel Suspension Kit

Has anyone mounted one of these TC LCA? And what might the benefits be that I'm not seeing.

 

[Jetboy]

I do not have the TC control arms. The benefits are longer travel. The longer the a-arm the greater the radius of the arc of the outer ball joint and ultimately the greater the travel available.