Chevy Volt

[-JD-]

Just wanted to get peoples opinions/experiences on this car. I came to a realization the other day that living in Canada in a province where electricity is relatively cheap and gas is the equivalent of $5+/gallon US it might be even more beneficial for me in particular to consider this car.

I am, of course, apprehensive about the battery, but GM backs it with an 8year/100K mile warranty and as of today they seem to offer a heavily subsidized replacement cost on the battery of less than $3K. Their expected lifespan is 12-15 years for the battery and their test cars already have over 200K miles on the original batteries.

I'm not about to go out and buy one or anything, but its peaked my interest. Been reading the forums and when I hear things like "last month I used a half gallon of gas" I cant help but be curious.

2013 Chevy Volt | Electric Car | Chevrolet

 

[Thai]

Volt is overpriced and thus has poor resale. GM can't sell them. The good news is that you should be able to get huge discounts...at least here in the States.

The problem with Volt (for me) is that it is a semi-hybrid. Yes, it runs on gas and electricity. However, once you deplete the batteries, you cannot recharge it while on the move. Once the batteries run out, you are basically a small 4-cyl pure gasoline engine getting about 33 mpg. You won't be able to re-charge your batteries until you plug it into your garage outlet. This means that the Volt makes a poor long-distance car (for vacation for example). I do like it better than Nissan Leaf because you don't have "range anxiety". In addition, for anyone with jobs at odd hours and if you can't rely on the batteries to be charge adequately, you will be force to run purely on gas (at 33 mpg) at times if you can't charge it fully every night.

Personally, i am bias, but i prefer Prius concept. You recharge the battery on the move. Yes, in the short runs, Volt is much better. But, for a vehicle in general, i like the Toyota hybrid system better. Prius always get the same mileage whether you go locally or across the country.

Not sure about Canada, but here in the States, there are very few public charging stations...and they take forever to charge the Li batteries.

Again, i am bias...so, take my opinion with a grain of salt. (As you can see, when i have an opinion, i will state it...otherwise, i back things up with facts.)

 

[-JD-]

^The Volt employs regenerative braking like the Prius so you can get some recharging on the go.

EPA ratings say 37MPG average on pure gas, 40 on the highway (Fuel Economy of the 2012 Chevrolet Volt). What kind of mileage do you average in the prius (I was curious as to your opinion in particular because I know you have a prius). This would still be a big increase for me and in all honesty like 85+% of the time it wouldn't be an issue for me to recharge nightly.

The Volt comes with a charger that plugs into standard 120V outlet and stores in the trunk. This takes about 8-10 hours to charge (overnight) or the optional 240V outlet can charge in about 4 hours. So yea, thats not great, but for anyone who has access to an outlet at work you could get near a full charge while parked at work and have a full battery for the drive home. Keep in mind this is only even an issue if you have a long commute to work, which i dont.

I can certainly see publicly available charging stations becoming more common place, and I can also see gas prices continuing to rise, so thats something to consider as well.
I'm not advocating for the Volt or anything, just always interested me and I ran some numbers last night. I figure I *roughly* spend about $5K/year in gas. Given my driving habits I could probably reduce that to as little as $1K/year with a volt. Add up that savings over, say, 3 years and it suddenly looks pretty damn good and thats with CURRENT gas prices. Who knows what gas will cost in 3 years....

 

[shadow247]

All it takes it a little math to realize the Volt is a losing proposition.
Pay 40k for a vehicle over 5 years = 8k per year in payments. Unless you are burning more than 8k in gas per year, it is going to cost you more money to buy the Hybrid than it would to simply keep driving your 4runner and put the extra money you saved by NOT buying the Volt into your gastank. The math on a hybrid car just does not work out. If I were to get a Hybrid, it would probably be the new Prius C, a more compact version of the current Prius. Of course that would mean spending over 10k on a vehicle, and I am not willing to do that.

 

[Thai]

JD, read up on the Volt. I don't claim to be an expert. Yes, it does have regen braking, but this is for basic function or something like that. In other words, once you have exhausted the battery, you cannot run on electric only until you plug it into the wall. I could be wrong though...so, check on that.

I think that it was C&D that only got 33 mpg after battery runs down...but i may be outdated.

As for charging, i would only charge it 8-10 hours. Lithium ion batteries (or any batteries for that matter) don't like rush charging. (This is also why you should NOT charge your iPhone [or any smartphone] battery with a 2-AMP charger.) Therefore, the 4-hour charging is good for emergencies, but NOT good to do over the long haul repeatedly. Same applies to Nissan Leaf. Therefore, even with public charging stations, 8-10 hours are just insanely impractical. Even a 4-hour charging station is crazy! This is not your gas stops for chips and snacks!

For me, you can read my thread on the Prius: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/all-other-vehicles/65568-my-new-car.html

I used to get 46-48 mpg on the highway depending on how fast i drive (68-72 mph). For my wife, she drives mostly in city and consistently gets 49.5-50 mpg in mixed driving (50/50 hwy/city).

 

[-JD-]

All it takes it a little math to realize the Volt is a losing proposition.
Pay 40k for a vehicle over 5 years = 8k per year in payments. Unless you are burning more than 8k in gas per year, it is going to cost you more money to buy the Hybrid than it would to simply keep driving your 4runner and put the extra money you saved by NOT buying the Volt into your gastank. The math on a hybrid car just does not work out. If I were to get a Hybrid, it would probably be the new Prius C, a more compact version of the current Prius. Of course that would mean spending over 10k on a vehicle, and I am not willing to do that.

^Why are you assuming that I'm planning to buy it as a second vehicle for myself?

If you're not willing to spend more than 10K on a vehicle then your opinion is moot since no NEW vehicle is going to be in your price range anyway.

 

[-JD-]

JD, read up on the Volt. I don't claim to be an expert. Yes, it does have regen braking, but this is for basic function or something like that. In other words, once you have exhausted the battery, you cannot run on electric only until you plug it into the wall. I could be wrong though...so, check on that.

I think that it was C&D that only got 33 mpg after battery runs down...but i may be outdated.

As for charging, i would only charge it 8-10 hours. Lithium ion batteries (or any batteries for that matter) don't like rush charging. (This is also why you should NOT charge your iPhone [or any smartphone] battery with a 2-AMP charger.) Therefore, the 4-hour charging is good for emergencies, but NOT good to do over the long haul repeatedly. Same applies to Nissan Leaf. Therefore, even with public charging stations, 8-10 hours are just insanely impractical. Even a 4-hour charging station is crazy! This is not your gas stops for chips and snacks!

For me, you can read my thread on the Prius: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/all-other-vehicles/65568-my-new-car.html

I used to get 46-48 mpg on the highway depending on how fast i drive (68-72 mph). For my wife, she drives mostly in city and consistently gets 49.5-50 mpg in mixed driving (50/50 hwy/city).

Thai, actually the Volt ONLY runs on electricity it just has a gasoline generator. For me, the big WOW factor comes in the fact that the majority of the time I would be able to do a days driving on a single charge. At my current electric rates charging the volt costs about $1/day. If I needed to drive more than the 40-60 miles from the charge that day then the generator kicks in and you get a still respectable 36-40 MPG for the rest of the day until you can charge it again that night.

So on road trips of more than 50 or so miles you lose about 4-8MPG on a prius, but on trips of less than that you dont use any gas at all and only about $1 worth of electricity. So it depends on your personal driving habits. If you commute more than 40-50 miles to work and you aren't able to plug in your car while you are at work all day then it might not make sense. It would be intersting to run the numbers...

To me it SEEMS like it would work. The biggest concerns to me are resale and quick advances in battery tech. There is a lot of technology involved in this car and everything technology related seems to move fast and be outdated quickly. Li batteries have proven to be pretty reliable now in cars like the prius and the insight but you really never know when the next big breakthrough will make them outdated.

 

[Thai]

Ahh I see. I stand corrected. Remember, prior hybrids use nickel batteries, not Li.

 

[-JD-]

Ahh I see. I stand corrected. Remember, prior hybrids use nickel batteries, not Li.

really? i didnt know that. I thought the prius and insight used Li batteries as well?

lol. I'm a 4Runner owner, I know nothing about hybrids!

 

[1engineer]

From a purely economic standpoint the Volt (and to some extent the Prius) is a losing proposition unless you drive it a lot of miles for a long time. Basically you pay the savings you would get on fuel up front in the extra purchase price for the tech. The best choice from again a strictly economic standpoint is a Yaris or something along those lines. It's cheap up front using traditional tech and gets good gas milage. If you compare the Yaris long term say 100K miles against the Volt the Yaris would win hands down. It takes a LONG time to make up 15K in fuel savings.

With that said if you want to buy one from an environmental standpoint you have to look beyond the actual fuel being used. Where did the lithium or lead come from? How much energy does it take to manufacture batteries? I once read some research into that and the reports I read say it's a wash. Total energy consumed for a vehicle like the Volt from cradle to grave (total energy for initial manufacture to last drop of energy used driving it to the junkyard) is about the same as a small conventional sedan.

Now if you want to buy one to make you feel good then the Volt or Prius is the ticket. At the end of the day though you don't save much if any in money or energy. Remember the OEMs have to reach standards for fuel efficiency, not total energy used for manufacture. Just my .02.

 

[THEROK]

All cars save for your 8 figure ferraris and the like are liabilities, expenses, money losing propositions so let's get that out of the way.

Aside from the financial accountant style hair splittong $ savings calculations that people typically go thru which leads to really nothing is this key point to consider: do you enjoy being behind the wheel of x vehicle?

For example. The tahoe all gas model runs a 5.3 liter engine. Its 2 mode hybrid counterpart has both an electric engine coupled with a more powerful 6.0. The hybrid is not only 33% more efficient but it also yields you noticeably more power, runs much smoother, and is big golf cart quiet in stop and go traffic. On top of that the hybrid aerokit makes it look significantly different to discerning eyes as the hood, front rear bumpers, sides, roof, rear led lights, lift gate, appliqués, and ride height give it a locomotive squared off aggressive look.

If the volt's driving experience makes you feel right about the money you spent, it is a winner. While the gas engine cars are dumping out stinky fumes in stop and go traffic you're sitting there whisper quiet emissions free not a drop of fuel spared.

Make sure you feeeeeel good. Just like 4r guys feeeeel better in a Toyota as opposed to say a pathfinder by Nissan.

 

[Hulley]

My aunt has one, she loves it. She lives about 10 miles from work and uses the Volt for everything. She says she has only burned 2 gallons of gas since March. She also says you cant tell a differnce when it switches from electric to gas when driving. It would neve work for me, I drive too far each way for work so I could not do it on electric alone.

 

[calikev]

I have a 2011 Prius V with Navi, pano roof and every option other than leather. I paid absolutely nothing down and did a 3 yr lease for $393 with taxes included. This is the way to go when purchasing this type of car. Lease it! Commit to a payment of approx $400 a month and decide to pay that forever, but own the newest technology every 3yrs too.

I will give it back and hop into another one next year. I will pay $400 a month then, put nothing down and have maintenance covered 24 mos, spend no $$$ on tires or brakes or anything like that and it averages well over 45 mpg. If the time comes that Toyota can not offer me $400 a month no $$$ down I will explore my options elsewhere. I can sell my Prius for a profit right now if I want, because the value is insanely high. I had a buddy total his and get a check for $7k from his insurance company after paying his lease off because the value was so high. The reason for this is because the value Toyota place on the Prius (Residual value at lease end) and the money factor (interest rate) mine was less than 1% interest...that's a deal IMHO.

In terms of comfort and size and overall pleasure in driving it....ehhh no so much love there for me. I'll drive my Runner if want pleasure and performance and any type of driving experience other than efficiency. I'm going to Vegas this weekend which is a 3 hr drive door to door. I can take the Runner and spend $130 roundtrip in gas or the Prius and spend $30-$40 in gas roundtrip. I think I'm taking the Runner and spending the extra $100 for my comfort and road handling. The Prius is comfortable, but for short trips in my opinion---I'm 6'3 and 250 lbs, so space matters (my wife is 5'2 125 lbs--we're a pair haha). I could never drive it more than 3hrs at a time.

We did consider the Volt when we bought the Prius. The lease made no sense at all. Even Chevy didn't value it well, so the lease was a joke. The MSRP is also waaay too high and I think buying it vs leasing would be too much of a liability. Chevy hasn't even proven to be able to make this car a reliable car for long term use like the Prius has. The interior design lacked and overall quality was far from the Prius standard. I didn't consider owning the Volt for these reasons. I knew I would trade or sell it sooner or later and lose a bag of money.

SUMMARY: The Prius is proven, holds it's value better than any others of it's kind, gets 45-50mpg average, has phenominal lease offers that DO justify the purchase from a total cost standpoint and if all else fails...IT'S A TOYOTA and reliability is not ever in question! I've seen Prius' with well over 200k on them.

 

[-JD-]

1engineer, just curious if you read my earlier estimates that I could save as much as $4K/year. At that rate it would only take 4 years to more than make up that $15K and thats using todays gas prices. If gas prices continue to rise the payback would come much sooner.

As for the batteries, as Thai pointed out, the Volt doesn't use the same type of battery as the prius. I haven't read a lot into it but some of the initial reading I've done says that there is still a net benefit to Lithium batteries. They aren't as difficult to produce or as hard to dispose of and they are recyclable. This is a debated topic, but its not unreasonable to assume that over the period of vehicle ownership the recyclability of the batteries will increase.

Hulley, thanks for the input. Thats exactly the type of story that got me interested in the Volt. Owner after owner saying that they have owned the car for months and only used a few gallons of gas with thousands of miles on the car. Seems to me that if you are able to charge it daily overnight you would have to have a one way commute in excess of 100 miles for it to be more beneficial to buy a prius.
Prius:
100 miles / 46MPG = 2.17gallons. Both ways thats 4.34 gallons
Volt:
40 (or so) miles electric + 60 gas at 38MPG = 1.58 gallons. Return trip (all gas) = 2.63 gallons for a total of 4.21 gallons.
So even if you commute 100 miles each way every day AND you aren't able to plug in while at work you still save with the volt. Even still, the savings you would see on shorter trips around town might outweigh the minimal savings on longer trips.

Calikev, yea it seems like leasing would be the way to go with this type of vehicle. Just dont know how outdated the technology could be in 3 years. Although, people said the same about the prius when it first came out and they are still going strong. Odd you mention the value as one of the biggest complaints from owners is that the residual after lease is too high on these vehicles. As for comfort and driving enjoyment you might be surprsied. Most road test reviewers have commented on how it was much more fun to drive than they expected and when compared to other hybrids.

 

[1engineer]

1engineer, just curious if you read my earlier estimates that I could save as much as $4K/year. At that rate it would only take 4 years to more than make up that $15K and thats using todays gas prices. If gas prices continue to rise the payback would come much sooner.

As for the batteries, as Thai pointed out, the Volt doesn't use the same type of battery as the prius. I haven't read a lot into it but some of the initial reading I've done says that there is still a net benefit to Lithium batteries. They aren't as difficult to produce or as hard to dispose of and they are recyclable. This is a debated topic, but its not unreasonable to assume that over the period of vehicle ownership the recyclability of the batteries will increase.

Hulley, thanks for the input. Thats exactly the type of story that got me interested in the Volt. Owner after owner saying that they have owned the car for months and only used a few gallons of gas with thousands of miles on the car. Seems to me that if you are able to charge it daily overnight you would have to have a one way commute in excess of 100 miles for it to be more beneficial to buy a prius.
Prius:
100 miles / 46MPG = 2.17gallons. Both ways thats 4.34 gallons
Volt:
40 (or so) miles electric + 60 gas at 38MPG = 1.58 gallons. Return trip (all gas) = 2.63 gallons for a total of 4.21 gallons.
So even if you commute 100 miles each way every day AND you aren't able to plug in while at work you still save with the volt. Even still, the savings you would see on shorter trips around town might outweigh the minimal savings on longer trips.

Calikev, yea it seems like leasing would be the way to go with this type of vehicle. Just dont know how outdated the technology could be in 3 years. Although, people said the same about the prius when it first came out and they are still going strong. Odd you mention the value as one of the biggest complaints from owners is that the residual after lease is too high on these vehicles. As for comfort and driving enjoyment you might be surprsied. Most road test reviewers have commented on how it was much more fun to drive than they expected and when compared to other hybrids.

Yes I did read it. I think you are comparing apples to oranges though in your savings. Of course you can recover faster by comparing a Volt to a 4Runner. If you compare it to a Kenworth you can recover $ even faster lol. Compare it to a Camry or an Accord or something close in size and see what time period you get on payback. Leasing would be the way to go though then you have no real up front tech cost adder.

 

[calikev]

[/QUOTE] Calikev, yea it seems like leasing would be the way to go with this type of vehicle. Just dont know how outdated the technology could be in 3 years. Although, people said the same about the prius when it first came out and they are still going strong. Odd you mention the value as one of the biggest complaints from owners is that the residual after lease is too high on these vehicles. As for comfort and driving enjoyment you might be surprsied. Most road test reviewers have commented on how it was much more fun to drive than they expected and when compared to other hybrids.[/QUOTE]

The purpose of the lease is to make sure you have no worries about the technology changing for the pos or neg side + the reasons I previously mentioned.

High after lease ending value----you want this to be as high as possible. Anyone complaining about this doesn't understand how a lease works. The more $$$ put at the end (residual) means less you pay to drive it 3 yrs. This is why i can drive a $35k Prius for $400 a month with no $ down. Chevy can't touch this lease, cuz they know and all consumers know, the residual can't get anywhere near the amount Toyota can guarantee for their 3 yr old cars = Higer Resale by FAR

The Prius is a blast to drive! I love the car, but I am a large guy and long trips in it just don't work for me. Daily commuting or about town or short trips less than 3 hrs and it's perfect!

Forget about the old mentality of " I want to own my car" You DON'T want to own your car unless it's your Runner type vehicle that you bought for cash and know it will be with the family for many many years. A lease is a purchase in 2 steps. I have the OPTION to buy it in 3 yrs or walk away with no downside if the market, options, technology or my mind just changes. Do this with a purchase and you will lose your shirt and roll negative money to the price of the next car thereby lowering your buying power for the new car by still paying for the last.

Again...a lease is a purchase with AN OPTION. It is an excellent way to buy these trendy, high-technology, ever evolving cars.

BTW---Your own example shows the Prius costing almost exactly the same in terms of gas pricing BUT The initial cost is less, the quality is better, the design is better and the daily headache of charging your car is gone and knowing you will lose when you sell it or trade it is gone too....you will lose for sure, compared to a Prius. I can say that with just about 100% certainty, if there is a such thing as being just about and 100% certain at the same time. HAHAHA

 

[Thai]

If you compare the Yaris long term say 100K miles against the Volt the Yaris would win hands down. It takes a LONG time to make up 15K in fuel savings.

Where did the lithium or lead come from? How much energy does it take to manufacture batteries? I once read some research into that and the reports I read say it's a wash. Total energy consumed for a vehicle like the Volt from cradle to grave (total energy for initial manufacture to last drop of energy used driving it to the junkyard) is about the same as a small conventional sedan.

Remember, the savings for a Prius goes beyond gas. There is no starter. Brakes are seldomly replaced before 100k miles, if at all. Oil changes are that of a small 1.8L engine. In other words, at least for Prius, the ONLY things that you do for most of the life of a Prius are: oil changes, tire rotations, windshield wiper change. That's it. No fuel additives (like diesel). Click link here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/858339-post100.html

As for cradle to grave, click link here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/858343-post101.html

 

[-JD-]

calikev, I was only using that as an extreme example of someone who commutes 200 miles per day because by my estimates that is about the point at which a prius would make more sense. My driving habits are no where near that. Personally I think the volt is better looking than the prius and yes, resale value is one of my concerns.

1engineer. Good point. When I compare to a 2013 Honda Accord with comparable equipment (volt has a pretty good list of standard equipment) and its rated gas mileage it does take more like 5 years for the numbers to favor the volt, but again, thats with current gas prices.

All good info though guys, this is exactly the kind of discussion i was hoping for. I'm not set on buying one by any means, just curious as to the numbers and learning more about them.

 

[calikev]

Are you sure you're not a Chevy salesman...joke. Enjoy the Volt. It's a good car, just not for me

 

[Thai]

For me, our next hybrid car will be the Toyota Camry Hybrid. I am like an old man. I like quiet cars that are comfy. This is where the TCH is much superior to Prius (or any other hybrids). Ford Fusion Hybrid is also a good one...but i trust Toyota's hybrid system over everyone else because i feel that they don't cut corners on their system. My wife like the TCH a lot. Since this is her work car, the small cargo is not an issue. How can you not like the silence of getting 40 mpg all around in the TCH?