Cranks cold, dies 10-15 minutes 3.0

[raceguy218]

Hello all. I found this forum Saturday after searching for help with my son's 95 3.0 4WD 4-Runner. He had had issues once or twice with it cutting off while driving but it would always crank back after a few minutes. Well Friday he was driving and this happened again but did not crank back. I left work to go help and check the problem, he was about 30 minutes away. I told him not to try it until I got there so if it cranked I could maybe see what it was doing. Sure enough when Iarrived it fired up. We preceeded to take it to a close friend that is an awesome mechanic and it stopped again before arriving. Fortunately we were close so I towed it with a chain. We checked it and had fire and appeared to have some fuel. The dist cap, rotor, and plugs looked pretty bad so we replaced those along with a fuel filter. This was on Saturday after sitting overnight and it fired up and ran good. After about 15 minutes it died again. Good fire and seemed to have fuel. That is when I found this sight looking for any help. After reading through many similar problems it sounded like others had this problem and turned out to be thef fuel pump. Honestly I do not have that much experience with Toyota, as I have had Chevys mostly. I had not seen that intermittent issue with a fuel pump on those but sounded like the Toyotas had so I went for a fuel pump. Ignition fire has always been strong so this seems logical to try. My friend installed the pump and it did seem to run better. Finally, so I thought !! Picked it up tonight drove about 15 minutes and it died. When cold cranks and runs good and when it dies it acts like it is running out of fuel. I have worked on cars all my life but this Toy has got me. Somebody please help if you have any suggestions. Thanks.

 

[regularguy412]

Are you getting any Check Engine Light codes on the dash? Sounds like you have elimintated fuel delivery as an issue, so it is likely a control system electronic issue. When the engine is first fired from dead cold, the ECM (computer) puts the engine in a preset loop until the engine warms sufficiently. Once warm, the ECM switches over and adjusts the fuel delivery based on feedback from the various electronic control systems, e.g.: AFM (Air Flow Meter), TPS (Throttle Position Sensor), Coolant Temp Sensor, O2 (oxygen) Sensor, etc.

All of these various systems need to be adjusted properly and in good working condition. Any one of them that is out of spec, can feed the ECM bad data and cause problems. To check the engine codes, find the 'Diagnostic' port in the engine bay. It's usually on the passenger side inner fender well, close to the fuse relay boxes. Bend a paper clip or short piece of wire and jumper the T1 and E1 pins in the port. The schematic for the pin designations is on the inner cover of the top of the port. Then turn on the ignition key to 'on' and count the flashes of teh Check Engine Light. Look here for more info about codes. If you get a code , then you can start narrowing down some of the possibilities.

http://www.off-road.com/toyota/tech/codes/index.html

Mike in AR

 

[raceguy218]

Thanks Mike in AR. Yes the Check Engine light is on and has been for quite a while. Had it checked when first came on maybe a year ago and code was EGR to best of recognition. I have never had anything shut down from EGR and he did not have $$ to fix at time so he has kept driving (not good I know but what can you do with college kids). I will check the codes and see if that is what is showing. Can the ECM be reset by disconnecting battery to clear codes ? Also any way to "trick" the ECM to continue to bypass the loop like when cold so I can drive it back to my mechanic rather than tow it ? All help is appreciated.

Mike in NC

 

[regularguy412]

Yes. You can reset the codes by disconnecting the negative battery terminal or by pulling the EFI fuse. Either way, you need to leave it disconnected for about 10 minutes.

I'm not aware of a way to trick the ECM. These engine control systems are needed to make the engine run right, after it is warmed up. Someone else on here may have an idea about how to trick it. However you need to find out which sensor or sending unit is the one at fault. Once you know that, you are half way to getting the entire repair accomplished.

Try resetting the ECM codes and then drive it. See what code it throws and go from there.

Mike in AR

 

[raceguy218]

Thanks again. I am going to check the current codes first and then reset the ECM to see what comes up next. Is the AFM like a MAP sensor on other vehicles. I know I have seen many of those in the past create similar problems but usually there is a rough run condition on the ones I have seen. As for the O2 can that cause it to shut off also, again most I have seen create driveability issues more than just a shut down condition. Sorry, but I am just not as familiar with the Yotas as my background has been more domestic. I really appreciate the help. I want to pinpoint the problem as each of these items mentioned are not inexpensive. I will post what codes I find and how things go.

 

[regularguy412]

Yes. The AFM performs the same function as a MAP sensor, just uses an old-school way of doing it. The AFM converts the air flow volume via a swinging door into an electronic signal the ECM can use.

I agree that any of these issues probably wouldn't cause a complete shutdown, but you may have more than one thing going on.

The biggest issue with these old OBD-I diagonstics is that they often aren't extremely specific. You can get a code from a certain sensor, however the code may be only distantly related to that sensor.

Hang in there.

Mike in AR

 

[Some1esle]

Kind of the same problem with my 95 sr5 limited v6.... It turned out to be a 12 year old 193K mile fuel filter (which you've changed), a dirty air filter, and the ECT (engine coolant temp) sensor switch... It's on the backside of the engine, next to the sensor. The ECT sensor is the all the way to the left with one wire, and the sensor switch is next to it with two wires... The sensor is $12, and the switch is about $30... Youo will need a 13mm, and a 19mm 1/2 inch drive sockets with a long extention. You will also need a conturtionist with boneless arms to get down in there... Just crawl up on intake manifold and get busy. i recommend you change them cold since you will burn the heck out of your arms if it's hot and you reach back there.. also,, be very careful when putting the sensor back in.. if it is not seated correctly your 4runner will appear to be running hot... I recommend silicone greaze to help the conturtionist to get the threads started. also watch that switch plug it's very easy to break... then it's all about the wire ties to make it say on. or if you know where to find a replacement plug... BTW that's code 22.

Good luck and hope it helps...

 

[raceguy218]

Thanks Rendell. That sounds reasonable. I have wondered about the coolant temp sensor because I know on a GM it controls everything. Sounds cheap enough to try as well. Also I just happen to know a boneless armed conturtionist that loves these challenges............Thanks again. Will look for code 22..................

 

[raceguy218]

OK, need a little advice here. Checked the codes before starting and it was Code 21, O2 sensor. Reset the codes cranked and light was out for a few minutes then came back on and as usual it shut down after 10-15 minutes. Checked code and same 21 came up. Can this shut the engine down completely ? I have not seen an O2 shut one down, but again I am not as familiar with the Toyota. Help, please, I don't want to keep buying things not needed.

Thanks Again,
Mike in NC

 

[just66horns]

OK, if you had started with the o2 sensor over a year ago when the light came on, you would not be having all these issues.

I would change the o2 sensor. and after that the temp sensors.

Now, probably something else has failed and you are getting two or more issues building on each other. Read my thread-"funny symptoms" I had issues with the temp sensors, and many shot vacuum lines

 

[raceguy218]

OK, thanks 66. Your right the O2 should have been done. This is my son's who is in college. Thanks for the help. I got the O2 and it goes on tonight. If that does not work then the Temp sensor will be next I suppose. Seems these are troublesome and control alot. I really do appreciate all of the help each of you have suggested. We will get this fixed. I have not had one yet to beat me !! 66 I like your thread about the funny problems. Man how can people sleep at night ?

 

[raceguy218]

Well, replaced the O2, cranked it up and no check engine light !! This was a good sign. Let it run for 30 minutes with not even a sputter. Revved it up as this is when it had died before while driving. Still again did fine. Turned the ignition off and then tried to restart and it would not crank. Still has fire and you can smell fuel but would not start. Suppose now I will go to the coolant sensor. Anybody have any other ideas please help. Had someone mention a coil but would this not kill the fire ?

Thanks
Frustrated in NC

 

[regularguy412]

When a coil goes bad, it becomes susceptible to heat. Even though the coil is mounted on the fender, it may be showing signs of weakness, after the engine warms up to operating temp. You may be seeing fire, but it maynot be consistent spark or hot enough to ignite the fuel charge in the cylinder.

Mike in AR

 

[Some1esle]

Well, replaced the O2, cranked it up and no check engine light !! This was a good sign. Let it run for 30 minutes with not even a sputter. Revved it up as this is when it had died before while driving. Still again did fine. Turned the ignition off and then tried to restart and it would not crank. Still has fire and you can smell fuel but would not start. Suppose now I will go to the coolant sensor. Anybody have any other ideas please help. Had someone mention a coil but would this not kill the fire ?

Thanks
Frustrated in NC

Check the codes again... The ECT will flood the heck out of it... I had Fuel vaporizing out the exhaust with my ECT switch... Once I Changed it it fired right up but ran crappy until the built up fuel in the system was burned out, after that no troubles... Just be very careful when putting the senor, or switch back in it's easy to cross them back there... then it will read real hot.

 

[raceguy218]

Thanks again, Rendell. Sounds like that may have a chance. I had the fuel vaporizing out the exhaust and also noticed the pipe was black like it has been very rich. I guess the ECT switch could be bad even without the code 22 huh ? I will replace those both tomorrow and hope for the best. Man, this is getting old. Reminds me of an old Cutlass I had once that would be fine driving everyday but if it set for two days the battery would be dead. It was a second car so this was really annoying. Went on for months until one night after driving had to go back to it and noticed the center console light barely shining through. There was something holding the lid from shutting completely so the light would run down the battery. Just happened to be in summer with long days and did not drive it much at night. Never been so happy to fix a problem. Well, that is until this Yota is fixed !! lol Just the fun of owning cars. Still better than payments for a new one !!

Just an unsolved opportunity !!

Also noticed alot on here about head gaskets. Was there an actual recall and if so how can I determine if my son's have been repaired ? Mileage is around 120k.

Thanks.

 

[raceguy218]

Well guys, changed the ECT sensor and still the same. This truck cranks fine when cold and will set and idle for 20-30 minutes. It actually did not cut off, and now I am so gun shy to drive it because I am tired of towing it, so turned it off and then would not crank back. Still has fire and fuel. Been some talk of a coil so thinking of trying this now. It acts just like one does when an ignition module is going bad but still having fire is what is throwing me. ANY ideas, please send them. I sure hope when this is fixed it helps keep someone else from all this trouble.

Thanks.
Mike in NC <><

 

[Some1esle]

Well guys, changed the ECT sensor and still the same. This truck cranks fine when cold and will set and idle for 20-30 minutes. It actually did not cut off, and now I am so gun shy to drive it because I am tired of towing it, so turned it off and then would not crank back. Still has fire and fuel. Been some talk of a coil so thinking of trying this now. It acts just like one does when an ignition module is going bad but still having fire is what is throwing me. ANY ideas, please send them. I sure hope when this is fixed it helps keep someone else from all this trouble.

Thanks.
Mike in NC <><

Did you do the sensor or the switch? I did the switch. It's right next to the sensor on the backside of the motor... has two wires. The sensor is still bad I think on mine becouse it reads hot after sitting for about 10 minutes after driving any length of time. However, the engine is not hot, or over heating... I got a sensor from oriely's but I'm pretty sure it's the wrong one, becouse there is no way the plug would fit... I need to run by there and get the exchange.. Yours could be the cold start injector flooding it as well. Could be coil.... But I bet after you find the electrical componet that is at fault it will be smooth driving with all those new parts...

 

[raceguy218]

I did change the Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor (ECT) but not the Temp Sendor Gauge Switch because the temp gauge reads correctly. Don't think it is the cold start injector as it always cranks great when cold. Yesterday I put the Air Flow Meter (AFM) on it and it is still the same. Let me go through again what is happening and whats replaced. Cranks fine cold, will run 15-30 minutes and then just shuts off. Will crank back if you hold gas pedal to floor like when a carb is flooded. Strong fuel smell also when it dies. Still has fire when it dies. Here is what has been replaced, dist cap, rotor, plugs, fuel filter, fuel pump, O2 sensor, and AFM. I get a super deal from my friends at NAPA and only buy the better grade parts (you get what you pay for) but still have several hundred dollars invested here with no results.

Noticed the oil pressure is not the highest by the gauge. Is there anything that will shut it down if that gets too low ? What about the TPS ? If it was the coil or ignition module it would not restart when it dies would it ? It really acts like it is way too rich.

Thanks,
Mike <><

 

[Some1esle]

ECM/ECU? That's the big one... Could have a cold solder on one of the caps, chips, or resisters in there.... Still might try the ECT Switch it's only like $30, and doesn't hurt to have the new one.. It's cheaper, and easier change than the ECM/ECU...

 

[losmosis]

Samethang

Raceguy, I am having the same problem with my 4Runner, same year same motor...
Can you tell me if you got it fixed and what was causing it?