ECU "learning": fact, fiction or just fuggetaboudit?

[SteadFAST 4Runner]

3. Yes, I've looked into the Sprint Booster and it's not for me. Doesn't appear to do anything I can't already do with my right size 14.

P.S. Why doesn't a reputable aftermarket company offer a chip for this vehicle? They seem to be available for virtually everything else out there.

Not sure why you would disregard the Sprint Booster. Everyone that has it says that it does what the 4Runner should be doing from the start. Its an instant throttle response, no delay. Sure your big foot will make the 4Runner go fast but this will not have that throttle lag programmed into the ECU.

I dont have one yet but I am going to be getting one soon because the ECU 'Learning' just doesnt work and I dont have the patience for it to 'learn'. Its going to make driving the 4Runner much better.

Here is a thread about it and everyone likes it.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/221290-sprint-booster-just-like-having-gears.html

 

[crankycodger]

Not sure why you would disregard the Sprint Booster. Everyone that has it says that it does what the 4Runner should be doing from the start. Its an instant throttle response, no delay. Sure your big foot will make the 4Runner go fast but this will not have that throttle lag programmed into the ECU.

I dont have one yet but I am going to be getting one soon because the ECU 'Learning' just doesnt work and I dont have the patience for it to 'learn'. Its going to make driving the 4Runner much better.

Here is a thread about it and everyone likes it.
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/221290-sprint-booster-just-like-having-gears.html

How is it actually mounted to the vehicle? Maybe screwed to the floor somehow?

Surely it doesn't just hang there after being plugged in.

 

[4RunnerAquasport]

These engines like RPMs and Fuel. Put your foot in it, it'll go.
Around 2500 rpms it comes alive. Nothing earth shaking mind you, but it does have power. I've wasted my money for over a year and 20k miles on 93 octane. It probably does run a little better but not enough to really notice.
My rig is HEAVY full Armor w winch, and when I hit a power line road with some moderately thick sand, disengaged Traction and VSC, drop a few gears and put my foot down.....It finds the torque curve and puts itself on top of the bumps like a boat on a plane. Sounds good too even with stock exhaust. But this type of driving is unrealistic on the street obviously and not very economical of course.
I also loaded it down even further with camping and recovery gear, tools, extra cv axle, and bunch of crap up top on the rack, drove up to Asheville on I-26 with some steep grades in 95* heat, it really didn't like that, and the altitude there in NC is nothing like out west. I realized then I would need a diesel or big V8 for that kind of foolishness.
That being said I bought this truck to beat up because I'm crazy and like to have fun. I hope we have answered your questions. From what I can tell this is a dead horse for the long time members lol. BOOO Toyota corporate!! And yes they did sell close to 100k of these just last year so I guess there will always be a few folks that aren't happy with Toyota's tuning parameters.

 

[rblt]

Although I only have a whopping 700 miles on my new (and first) 4Runner, like many I'm struggling a bit with the well-known "lazy throttle syndrome". Unlike many, I recognize that it's more a perception than a reality but in fact sometimes perceptions become realities, don't they?

I bought my new ( and first ) 4Runner about 10 weeks ago and within the first week we took it on a 1,100 mile road trip including the 4,000 foot Coquihalla Pass. I made some observations about the transmission shift patterns on hills etc., that impressed me. I previously posted them here and here.

Given that the 4Runner is factory equipped to tow/haul/climb, it's emphasis is on torque rather than off-the-line speed. Mine is at about 4,000 miles now and likely due to a combination of break-in and my familiarity/confidence with it, I am happy with acceleration/handling, having cruised up to 90mph.

 

[SteadFAST 4Runner]

How is it actually mounted to the vehicle? Maybe screwed to the floor somehow?

Surely it doesn't just hang there after being plugged in.

Not sure where its mounted but its something that doesnt need to be messed with after its installed. It has 3 modes and everyone says you leave it on the Green mode and dont touch it anymore, your 4Runner runs like it should have from the factory. It doesnt increase horsepower, it gets rid of the throttle lag and makes it more responsive.

 

[jgs9455]

I think there is a difference going from a physical throttle cable vs a computer controlled drive by wire. Not to mention they likely want you to increase fuel economy and stay in slow acceleration eco mode.

I personally bought a Sprint Booster but haven't tried it yet. You can have it set to stock with a button press so I really don't see a down side.

 

[jtc44]

It seems like a lot of people use "S" mode as though it was some sort of weird proxy for a manual transmission. It's not though. When you drive in "S", whatever gear is being shown is not necessarily the gear that the car is in. It's just the highest possible gear it can go to. You should really only bother with S if you're going uphill and need more torque (limit the transmission to 4th or 3rd or whatever gear) or you're going downhill and want to use more engine braking. If you're driving around town in S and actually shifting up/down, I'd bet almost anything all you're doing is getting worse mileage because you're not going to be as good at knowing shift points as the ECU is.

Toyota programmed the throttle mapping from the gas pedal (basically a potentiometer) to demanded throttle to the ECU to not be linear. This results in a pretty shitty driving experience even on a stock vehicle. The motor does have some guts, just takes work to get it to do what you want. It should not be that way and was a mistake Toyota made. But people still buy them and seem quite happy, so I doubt they will ever do anything about it on this model.

I have some thoughts concerning both of these comments. I'll preface by saying that I have very little knowledge about the software governing the relationship between the throttle and transmission. Maybe someone can weigh in with specifics.
[MENTION=145226]adaml[/MENTION] while I believe you may be right that sometimes I'm getting worse gas mileage (potentially) by operating in S mode, I don't believe the ECU ALWAYS knows the current best gear for best gas mileage. Example: I have one very moderate incline on my daily commute where my vehicle struggles to maintain 45-50 mph. Using an iOBD2 dongle and phone app, I've seen my engine load increase and current mpgs decrease while blindly pushing away at the gas pedal in "5" or "D" to maintain speed. Conversely, I've seen my engine load decrease and current mpgs increase upon shifting to "4" to maintain that 45-50.

While I understand that this isn't very accurate in a world of hundreds to thousands of repeated runs, especially considering the many variables and the fact that my vehicle isn't stock as Toyota intended, I think my experiences speak to what @wfo said and it does take work to make the vehicle do what you want. Interpreted in my case as: sometimes I need to push the gas pedal harder than I want to even just to maintain speed. My cheap fix? S mode, even if it negatively (potentially) impacts my mpgs because it positively (definitely!) impacts my driving experience.

And back to getting worse gas mileage, I've put about 25k on my vehicle with a full OME kit, C rated ST Maxx 255/75s and I usually run a Packasport roof box that nearly spans the width of my roof AND I've averaged around 18.5 mpgs over 1350 gallons of 85 octane living in a mountain town. I'm not going to worry about the 1-2% deviation with the tires. All in all, I'm completely satisfied with this vehicle. But if it didn't have that S mode.........

 

[adaml]

I have some thoughts concerning both of these comments. I'll preface by saying that I have very little knowledge about the software governing the relationship between the throttle and transmission. Maybe someone can weigh in with specifics.

[MENTION=145226]adaml[/MENTION] while I believe you may be right that sometimes I'm getting worse gas mileage (potentially) by operating in S mode, I don't believe the ECU ALWAYS knows the current best gear for best gas mileage. Example: I have one very moderate incline on my daily commute where my vehicle struggles to maintain 45-50 mph. Using an iOBD2 dongle and phone app, I've seen my engine load increase and current mpgs decrease while blindly pushing away at the gas pedal in "5" or "D" to maintain speed. Conversely, I've seen my engine load decrease and current mpgs increase upon shifting to "4" to maintain that 45-50.

While I understand that this isn't very accurate in a world of hundreds to thousands of repeated runs, especially considering the many variables and the fact that my vehicle isn't stock as Toyota intended, I think my experiences speak to what @wfo said and it does take work to make the vehicle do what you want. Interpreted in my case as: sometimes I need to push the gas pedal harder than I want to even just to maintain speed. My cheap fix? S mode, even if it negatively (potentially) impacts my mpgs because it positively (definitely!) impacts my driving experience.

And back to getting worse gas mileage, I've put about 25k on my vehicle with a full OME kit, C rated ST Maxx 255/75s and I usually run a Packasport roof box that nearly spans the width of my roof AND I've averaged around 18.5 mpgs over 1350 gallons of 85 octane living in a mountain town. I'm not going to worry about the 1-2% deviation with the tires. All in all, I'm completely satisfied with this vehicle. But if it didn't have that S mode.........

Like I said, it has it's uses if you're going up/downhill but if you're just "driving around town" (i.e. generally level roads, stop light to stop light or short stretches of road), you'll probably (not always but very likely) get worse mpg. Also, let me add that I'm not saying it's taking you from 15 to 5 .. I'm just saying that's probably the only objective thing you're getting out of running in S mode (your individual happiness is obviously subjective).

 

[philsey]

On the subject of S-mode, I always use S4 when driving under 45 mph. Reason: (and maybe later models fixed this) is that my trans, in D, hunts between 4-5 at speeds between 37-42. I find this annoying. I still avg 19-19.5 in mostly town driving. I do drive like an old man tho.

:lookout:

 

[rblt]

On the subject of S-mode, I always use S4 when driving under 45 mph. Reason: (and maybe later models fixed this) is that my trans, in D, hunts between 4-5 at speeds between 37-42. I find this annoying. I still avg 19-19.5 in mostly town driving. I do drive like an old man tho.

:lookout:

I haven't noticed any 4-5 hunting in city driving, generally with the available torque I find downshifts are delayed until truly necessary.

I primarily use S3/S2 on one particularly steep downhill of my commute to avoid riding the brakes. On lesser inclines, I will tap the brakes to cause D to downshift when going downhill.

I'm not a mechanic/engineer, but I trust the sequential shift of today is different than simply dropping the automatic of yesteryear down on a hill to use engine braking. When I was first driving 38 years ago, I would drop the old Plymouth automatic from 3 to 2 thinking I would save my brakes on a long downhill stretch, but soon found that the resultant transmission rebuild more than negated any savings on brakes...

 

[Blitzkrieg]

I haven't noticed any gear hunting either. In fact I will say the tranny in my Trail is one of the smoothest I have ever owned.

And if I want to haul ass I'll jump on my bike or turbocharged Sling Shot.

 

[crankycodger]

I haven't noticed any 4-5 hunting in city driving, generally with the available torque I find downshifts are delayed until truly necessary.

I primarily use S3/S2 on one particularly steep downhill of my commute to avoid riding the brakes. On lesser inclines, I will tap the brakes to cause D to downshift when going downhill.

I'm not a mechanic/engineer, but I trust the sequential shift of today is different than simply dropping the automatic of yesteryear down on a hill to use engine braking. When I was first driving 38 years ago, I would drop the old Plymouth automatic from 3 to 2 thinking I would save my brakes on a long downhill stretch, but soon found that the resultant transmission rebuild more than negated any savings on brakes...

This is only an intuitive guess on my part, but ignoring the obvious difference in sophistication between old and new transmissions I'd say it does exactly the same thing.

 

[tpetsch]

Personally I've been thinking about the Sprint Booster too for some time now too, just waiting for the day that I have $300 bucks to blow.

My thinking is I like the simple plug and play aspects of it -completely reversible- and it's got a 30 day 100% money back guarantee. So, it's worth at least a try IMO especially considering it's like to only mod out there that hints at giving the 4Runner some pep.

I'm thinking "Group Buy" ?? ...I'd llike to try one at a discount. I love a good discount

 

[Saker]

How is it actually mounted to the vehicle? Maybe screwed to the floor somehow?

Surely it doesn't just hang there after being plugged in.

Unplug the OEM harness from the acc pedal, insert SprintBooster between the 2 connections. (It's a small piece of hardware/software)
Just that easy.
Set the mode to your desired preference, unplug or leave the selector plugged into the SB & drive.

 

[pcrdude]

I assume the "sprint" thingy is a throttle controller. I have one in my Camaro (Vitesse), and it improves driveability (rev matching downshifts, response off the line).

For my T4R, I am just not in that much of a hurry...



In fact, with 3M miles, my mpg on the last tank was 23 (Limited). I use modified mypermiling technique, and accelerate without letting the tachometer go over 2K (unless necessary). I get over 17 mpg pulling over a ton of camper and stuff.

 

[Brandonium]

Try accelerating like that in a 4R in a very hilly area (which is all I have here) while blocking loads of people from actually getting to where they need to go and see how well that does. On some of these hills I'd never hit 50 Mph accelerating without going over 2k. Not possible without creating a load of havoc behind me.

There's just no way I am willing to be an a$$hole on the road to other people by creating long lines behind me and that's exactly what would happen on some of these long hilly inclines that we have here.

The 4R is no sports car but it's also not a Model T.. Wanting better throttle response without needing so much pedal input does not equal wanting a sports car. Not sure why people keep saying that crap. The argument is invalid. Most of us know what we are driving. I definitely don't see a Ferrari when I look out the window and I know I'm not in one when I am driving it.

I would like to think I am in less of a hurry with the 4R but I do have to keep up with the flow and sometimes that's bothersome. My '71 Volvo has maybe 110 hp in its current state and when you touch the pedal that little 2 liter engine buzzes even with losing a quart every two weeks through the rings and valve seats and another quart via gaskets.

I assume the "sprint" thingy is a throttle controller. I have one in my Camaro (Vitesse), and it improves driveability (rev matching downshifts, response off the line).

For my T4R, I am just not in that much of a hurry...



In fact, with 3M miles, my mpg on the last tank was 23 (Limited). I use modified mypermiling technique, and accelerate without letting the tachometer go over 2K (unless necessary). I get over 17 mpg pulling over a ton of camper and stuff.

 

[03_4x4Runner]

These engines like RPMs and Fuel. Put your foot in it, it'll go.
Around 2500 rpms it comes alive. Nothing earth shaking mind you, but it does have power. I've wasted my money for over a year and 20k miles on 93 octane. It probably does run a little better but not enough to really notice.
My rig is HEAVY full Armor w winch, and when I hit a power line road with some moderately thick sand, disengaged Traction and VSC, drop a few gears and put my foot down.....It finds the torque curve and puts itself on top of the bumps like a boat on a plane. Sounds good too even with stock exhaust. But this type of driving is unrealistic on the street obviously and not very economical of course.
I also loaded it down even further with camping and recovery gear, tools, extra cv axle, and bunch of crap up top on the rack, drove up to Asheville on I-26 with some steep grades in 95* heat, it really didn't like that, and the altitude there in NC is nothing like out west. I realized then I would need a diesel or big V8 for that kind of foolishness.
That being said I bought this truck to beat up because I'm crazy and like to have fun. I hope we have answered your questions. From what I can tell this is a dead horse for the long time members lol. BOOO Toyota corporate!! And yes they did sell close to 100k of these just last year so I guess there will always be a few folks that aren't happy with Toyota's tuning parameters.

This is the problem. It does wake up after 2500 rpm but it is completely gutless until you get to 2500 rpm, especially taking off on a hill from a stop. In the old days on over cammed muscle cars we would put in high stall speed torque convertors. This would let the engine get up to higher rpms and torque peak real quick. If the 4runner had a higher stall speed torque convertor I think it would really wake it up and you would still have the convertor lockup for no slippage in normal use. You know the 4runner is weak of the line when my wife who does not care or know about cars at all complains about it.

 

[Jetboy]

I've had a few thoughts about this.

One maybe possibility for someone who's really trying to solve this - 4lo has significantly different throttle response. I find it much better across the board. It also uses different shift logic. It stays one gear lower most of the time and gives significantly better power with less throttle due to gear selection even though the throttle response is supposedly slower in 4lo. So... possibly one could trick the ecu into thinking it's in 4lo when it's not and see what happens.

The other option that's not discussed a lot is lower gears. I also have an RX350 that has a very similar engine, but it feels significantly different. I attribute it primarily to gearing and shift patterns. The RX350 has small tires AND 4.30 gears. It also has a 6 speed to compensate at highway speeds with the extra overdrive. However I do think that for stock size tires 4.10 gears would be nearly ideal - and of course they're unobtanium. The lighter weight Fortuner has 3.93 diffs, the same engine, and the 6 speed auto. I do not know how it drives as I have yet to have a chance to drive one.

What I've found as a comparison is that the rx350 is a dead heat 0-60, but feels a lot more powerful. At any given speed the 4runner will be 1,000rpms lower and need a downshift, the RX does not. The two vehicles get nearly identical mileage in city driving and the rx gets about 24mpg highway where the stock 4runner was around 22mpg. Towing my small camper, the rx will only get around 13mpg at any speed and at 80mph it's revving to the moon at 4,000rpms or more, the 4runner can pull more like 16-17mpg- with 285/70/17 tires and about a 2" lift. Stock I probably could have returned 1-2mpg better. The 4runner does much better towing even though it has a lower tow rating. I'm going to mess around with some wind deflectors on the roof to see if they help.

The 4runner is better on Poison Spider Mesa. Throttle response, shift logic, etc are easier to modulate rock crawling. <- that's a joke BTW

Anyway - just some observations from having two versions of the GR that on paper are nearly identical but in practice are quite different in day to day driving experiences.


Also to add one more data point, I spent a week with a 2016 Ram 1500 crew cab with the 5.7L hemi and the 8 speed auto. The shift logic and throttle response were remarkably similar to the 4runner. It felt like heavy slow truck unless you put the pedal all the way down. Then it would scoot. Otherwise, you'd have thought it was a v6. In comparison my parents older 8.1L 2001 GMC feels like a rocket although on paper it's down quite a bit on hp and has slower recorded 0-60 times. Of course it's also a lot heavier. Both are rolling pieces of shit IMO. But they are a totally different market.

One parting thought on this is that the locked down ECU is a very big reason that the resale is so high. You can buy a used one knowing that it hasn't been messed with. It would be very unusual for me to ever consider a used turbo diesel due to the aftermarket for tuning and difficulty determining if it had been abused or not. How would you ever know. At least now Ford has new software that locks you out once you tune them so you can't go back to OEM tuning without a trace. As I understand it Ford can run a check and identify if the system has ever been modified or run out of parameter indicating a tuner was used.

 

[pcrdude]

Try accelerating like that in a 4R in a very hilly area (which is all I have here) while blocking loads of people from actually getting to where they need to go and see how well that does. On some of these hills I'd never hit 50 Mph accelerating without going over 2k. Not possible without creating a load of havoc behind me.

There's just no way I am willing to be an a$$hole on the road to other people by creating long lines behind me and that's exactly what would happen on some of these long hilly inclines that we have here.

The 4R is no sports car but it's also not a Model T.. Wanting better throttle response without needing so much pedal input does not equal wanting a sports car. Not sure why people keep saying that crap. The argument is invalid. Most of us know what we are driving. I definitely don't see a Ferrari when I look out the window and I know I'm not in one when I am driving it.

I would like to think I am in less of a hurry with the 4R but I do have to keep up with the flow and sometimes that's bothersome. My '71 Volvo has maybe 110 hp in its current state and when you touch the pedal that little 2 liter engine buzzes even with losing a quart every two weeks through the rings and valve seats and another quart via gaskets.

I understand your point and agree to an extent. Maybe I should have put "when possible"???

A throttle controller may be a good thing for you!

 

[Brandonium]

Just not easy getting her up to speed on hills here. I'm not going to floor it for the people behind me but giving her a little gas will not help her much either. :rapture:

I understand your point and agree to an extent. Maybe I should have put "when possible"???

A throttle controller may be a good thing for you!