Experience with 2 tanks of premium

[Whippersnapper02]

I've been using it normally for about 2 years now with experiments running 87 again. No change at all. I run it because the single VVTi engine had low speed high load knock issues which were solved with higher octane. I doubt it was detrimental to the health of the engine but it was something I didn't want to hear. I could have sworn I heard it in the Runner so I just went to 91 here in Derpiforna.

 

[seatia]

I've been using it normally for about 2 years now with experiments running 87 again. No change at all. I run it because the single VVTi engine had low speed high load knock issues which were solved with higher octane. I doubt it was detrimental to the health of the engine but it was something I didn't want to hear. I could have sworn I heard it in the Runner so I just went to 91 here in Derpiforna.

Knock is detrimental to an engine.
Be sure that is what you are hearing.
All ecu engines have knock sensors so you should not hear knocking unless it becomes out of range of the ecu.

Possible your engine is coked up, but these days that should be iffy.

 

[Whippersnapper02]

Knock is detrimental to an engine.
Be sure that is what you are hearing.
All ecu engines have knock sensors so you should not hear knocking unless it becomes out of range of the ecu.

Possible your engine is coked up, but these days that should be iffy.

Most people don't notice with the 1GR easily hitting 250K miles. I doubt it was coked up because I drive it hard and continued to do so after supercharging at 90K miles. I made it to 150K when someone ran a red and totaled my Tacoma. It would have kept going otherwise.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

Knock is detrimental to an engine.
Be sure that is what you are hearing.
All ecu engines have knock sensors so you should not hear knocking unless it becomes out of range of the ecu.

Possible your engine is coked up, but these days that should be iffy.

Knock sensors are not a guarantee preignition won’t occur. You can pull the timing back all you want but static compression (or bad fuel) can still cause pinging.

The only thing that will stop the pinging in the aforementioned exceptional cases would be to cut fuel entirely. Will a knock sensor do that, if the condition doesn’t resolve pulling timing?

Completely cutting fuel (or spark) typically occurs when hitting the rev limiter.


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[IslandJim]

Does gear hunting seem worse in 4Runners or Tacomas with the 6 speed? IIRC 5th is 0.75 and [if there is a] 6th [it] is a 0.66 reduction.


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With my 2015 Tacoma with 5 speed the gear hunting was less, the Tacoma was also considerably lighter, thus less downshifting on grades.

 

[seatia]

Knock sensors are not a guarantee preignition won’t occur. You can pull the timing back all you want but static compression (or bad fuel) can still cause pinging.

The only thing that will stop the pinging in the aforementioned exceptional cases would be to cut fuel entirely. Will a knock sensor do that, if the condition doesn’t resolve pulling timing?

Completely cutting fuel (or spark) typically occurs when hitting the rev limiter.


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Several causes of pinging, if in fact it is occurring and reduced by premium fuel, the the OP should investigate the causes.
The point being, it is detrimental to an engine.

 

[Whippersnapper02]

Several causes of pinging, if in fact it is occurring and reduced by premium fuel, the the OP should investigate the causes.
The point being, it is detrimental to an engine.

Most people just keep driving without knowing what knock is. Certainly knock isn't good but this also isn't a rotary engine where a few will take out an apex seal.

 

[Planetcat]

Not just about mileage.

So I went through this same thought process with my hemi grand cherokee. I was doing anything to improve the 12 mpg (yeah, the 4Runner really isn't that bad). The manual said to use only 87 or 89 octane, but I was getting 1-2 mpg better with 91.

The issue that was brought up about this on the jeep forums isn't that the manufacturer is trying to save you money on gas. As mentioned in other responses here, it's also about ecu tuning, combustion, designed temperatures, durability of materials (seals, metallurgy), fuel detergents, etc.. Even though it's also a vvt engine, but obviously different than the Toyota 4.0L, I stopped using 91, because I got some credible feedback on potential damage that can happen with continued use. Just something to think about - the engine isn't necessarily designed for 91 octane or higher despite performance improvements.

 

[mrblah]

What was the cost to do that? Might be the ticket for all of us expecting too much from an octane change.


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I'm not sure. I remember it was expensive, and thats probably why i don't remember what i paid, too traumatic for me..lol.

 

[Toffees]

So many narratives on this issue and so little data, but maybe that's why we love this sort of conversation. Two thoughts, then I'll grab the popcorn.

1. What is really happening when you change gas? Are you getting cleaner burn, more power, change in engine temperature? Is there anything else happening that affects what we see? (Ethanol additives play a huge part in this as well, maybe more than octane.)

2. None of this is actual research. Get large sample sizes, blind study, run rigorous tests, and get back with us in 6 months. Get someone else to fuel up your truck every time, change randomly between fuel types (no diesel), and run 3 tanks before switching to the next fuel. Get that data over many samples and then bring it here to share so we can insult you.

TL;DR, drive slower, buy regular gas, spend the saved money on a decent 6 pack (no IPA).

 

[baldrik78]

I run premium because the original 1GR-FE was designed for it and the white paper on the engine said it got 285 hp on premium versus 270 on regular.

 

[Whippersnapper02]

So many narratives on this issue and so little data, but maybe that's why we love this sort of conversation. Two thoughts, then I'll grab the popcorn.

1. What is really happening when you change gas? Are you getting cleaner burn, more power, change in engine temperature? Is there anything else happening that affects what we see? (Ethanol additives play a huge part in this as well, maybe more than octane.)

2. None of this is actual research. Get large sample sizes, blind study, run rigorous tests, and get back with us in 6 months. Get someone else to fuel up your truck every time, change randomly between fuel types (no diesel), and run 3 tanks before switching to the next fuel. Get that data over many samples and then bring it here to share so we can insult you.

TL;DR, drive slower, buy regular gas, spend the saved money on a decent 6 pack (no IPA).

I've been a 1GR owner since 2010 with the single VVT-i engine in my Tacoma and now the dual VVT-i engine in my 2019 4Runner. This same debate has been going on since before I was around but no one has ever posted real proof other than "it feels faster" butt dyno charts. It also doesn't help that at one point Toyota did mention running 91 but then removed it from the manual probably because they changed their tuning.

 

[2021nightshade4x4]

So many narratives on this issue and so little data, but maybe that's why we love this sort of conversation. Two thoughts, then I'll grab the popcorn.

1. What is really happening when you change gas? Are you getting cleaner burn, more power, change in engine temperature? Is there anything else happening that affects what we see? (Ethanol additives play a huge part in this as well, maybe more than octane.)

2. None of this is actual research. Get large sample sizes, blind study, run rigorous tests, and get back with us in 6 months. Get someone else to fuel up your truck every time, change randomly between fuel types (no diesel), and run 3 tanks before switching to the next fuel. Get that data over many samples and then bring it here to share so we can insult you.

TL;DR, drive slower, buy regular gas, spend the saved money on a decent 6 pack (no IPA).

There’s just not anyone willing to conduct this type of testing, over this extended period, for a *potential* 1-2 MPG increase when the sheer price of premium will more than consume any savings. In my area, premium is about $0.60 more than regular.


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[Toffees]

There’s just not anyone willing to conduct this type of testing, over this extended period, for a *potential* 1-2 MPG increase when the sheer price of premium will more than consume any savings. In my area, premium is about $0.60 more than regular.


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I've started buying Shell from Circle K and I've noticed my Spotify is giving me fewer advertisements and is repeating my favorites more often. I need to try this out for another week or two but signs are promising so far.

 

[mrblah]

I've started buying Shell from Circle K and I've noticed my Spotify is giving me fewer advertisements and is repeating my favorites more often. I need to try this out for another week or two but signs are promising so far.

:lol:

 

[RobS10]

use cruise control

Even "smart" cruise control is a blunt instrument for an underpowered engine. On a flat Interstate, CC works nicely. On hills, I found it sucked big time, double downshifting way more than when I tried a similar hill without it.

 

[Grug556]

Octane aside I think a better thing to consider is getting fuel with zero ethanol garbage in it. Also not all brands are the same gas wise, some discount places have old shit watery gas with likely lower octane that may retard timing

Ideally go to Home Depot, get a box of mothballs..preferably very old stock made in the 1970s... use sparingly as they can clog injectors over time... a ball here...a ball there..:lookout:

Or say **** it and go big....go Toluene. Try not to get high or go blind or melt anything plastic while your dumping it in..:laugh:

 

[Charles Bronson]

Octane aside I think a better thing to consider is getting fuel with zero ethanol garbage in it. Also not all brands are the same gas wise, some discount places have old shit watery gas with likely lower octane that may retard timing

Ideally go to Home Depot, get a box of mothballs..preferably very old stock made in the 1970s... use sparingly as they can clog injectors over time... a ball here...a ball there..:lookout:

Or say **** it and go big....go Toluene. Try not to get high or go blind or melt anything plastic while your dumping it in..:laugh:

Ethanol is an octane booster. It's why guys with modified turbo engines often run high ethanol/gasoline blends and/or full E85. You can often find an extra 5%-10% of power and better pre-detonation control on a turbo motor that is tuned to handle a high ethanol mix.

The biggest issues with ethanol as a fuel are:

- It has a lot less energy thus reduced MPGs. Running full ethanol will result in ~20-25% lower fuel economy than full gasoline.

- Ethanol is hydroscopic, thus takes on moisture if the ethanol sits in your gas tank too long (i.e., 1+ months).

- Ethanol being better for the environment is a total and utter farce. It is misguided, a complete waste of resources, and is very energy intensive to produce. And this is coming from a guy that's been doing environmental consulting since 1998.

 

[Charles Bronson]

With respect to premium resulting in better driving and mpgs in these trucks, I'll just say that the power of suggestion is a very powerful thing to one's mind.

I've seen this discussion/debate time and time again on the automotive forums I've been a part of since the days of dial-up and America Online (AOL).

It really makes no sense for the truck to have better throttle response and less downshifting running premium. Octane is a fuel's resistance to burn. Thus, higher octane fuels are more resistant to burn which is why they are required in motors with really high cylinder pressures. The current gen 1-GR isn't that motor. Plus, the benefits of higher octane would be present under hard, high rpm driving, and not low rpms or initial throttle tip-in.

As for downshifting, that is all related to engine vacuum and load and not octane. The transmission ECU senses a change in engine vacuum and/or load (i.e., higher load) and will downshift accordingly. It has nothing to do with octane.

If someone wants to really put this to the test. Take your 4Runner to a shop with a Dynojet dyno. Do 3 runs with 91 for about $100. Then full up with 87 and run that for a week or so and re-dyno on the same dyno and similar ambient conditions. I would bet the HP and TQ numbers across all runs would all be within 1-2% of each other which is typical dyno run variability.

Lastly, the higher the altitude you are, the less octane the motor needs (low oxygen in the air). That's why in high elevation areas you routinely see 85 octane fuel at pumps. It's not because the stations are "cheap".

 

[02SE]

Ethanol is an octane booster. It's why guys with modified turbo engines often run high ethanol/gasoline blends and/or full E85. You can often find an extra 5%-10% of power and better pre-detonation control on a turbo motor that is tuned to handle a high ethanol mix.

The biggest issues with ethanol as a fuel are:

- It has a lot less energy thus reduced MPGs. Running full ethanol will result in ~20-25% lower fuel economy than full gasoline.

- Ethanol is hydroscopic, thus takes on moisture if the ethanol sits in your gas tank too long (i.e., 1+ months).

- Ethanol being better for the environment is a total and utter farce. It is misguided, a complete waste of resources, and is very energy intensive to produce. And this is coming from a guy that's been doing environmental consulting since 1998.

Just for the sake of accuracy, it's 'hygroscopic'.