Fact or Fiction?

[1engineer]

Mods speaking in this fashion is what gives me pause about their ability to moderate responsibly.

Usually when I speak as a mod I put -mod- as a signature. I responded to him in that manner because of his opening sentence. I didn't post anything that should have warranted that response IMO.

JD and I would probably never agree on much of anything and I respect that. I don't have to like it.

Would you rather I remain neutral with no opinion? If I did I would be the first in history from the Supreme Court down to the lowest level of judge, me, to be that way.

 

[-JD-]

You mentioned income inequality. I gave you an example of income equality.

You gave me an example of two people who make different amounts of money. Don't pretend that you were trying to give an unbiased example of income inequality. You were equating the entire issue down to a rich guy giving a poor guy a handout. It was, quite frankly, a childish response and an attempt at insinuating something without actually saying it.

Please tell me you are smart enough to realize what would happen if the minimum wage was increased. It's a great political talking point for the left but in reality it would hurt those you are trying to help. Why? You raise the minimum wage across the board. As soon as you do those businesses that use minimum wage employees automatically raise their prices of their wares to compensate for the increased salary hit. The people who buy products from these businesses, including minimum wage earners, now pay much more, negating their salary increase.

Source? I've ready PLENTY of research suggesting just the opposite. In fact, putting more money in the hands of consumers tends to increase economic activity. Don't forget that labour only represents a portion of what something costs, not all of it.

https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster

One of the most popular arguments against raising the minimum wage is getting demolished - Salon.com

Get rid of your passionate verbiage and speak logically and coherently or you will be the first ever to be on my ignore list.

Maybe i'm being biased but I feel like I am one of the most logical and coherent speakers here. I've repeatedly had to ask other members to stay on topic and I've almost always avoided engaging anyone personally.
The fact that you would threaten to ignore me is genuinely shocking and somewhat eye opening. Though we don't agree, I've always assumed you to be at least open minded about others ideas and opinions. Since I don't feel I've said anything as extreme as what has been accepted from others, I have to wonder if your threat is more an attempt to ignore a dissenting opinion you feel threatened by, than taking offence to the logic or coherence of my posts.

 

[ndcent]

Usually when I speak as a mod I put -mod- as a signature. I responded to him in that manner because of his opening sentence. I didn't post anything that should have warranted that response IMO.

JD and I would probably never agree on much of anything and I respect that. I don't have to like it.

Would you rather I remain neutral with no opinion? If I did I would be the first in history from the Supreme Court down to the lowest level of judge, me, to be that way.

I don't want you to be anyone you're not.

Remaining neutral, is by nature, the job of a moderator. Which is why I took notice of your remarks. I hadn't noticed the mod signature of past posts. That's smart.

 

[wadle5]

Source? I've ready PLENTY of research suggesting just the opposite. In fact, putting more money in the hands of consumers tends to increase economic activity.



https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster



One of the most popular arguments against raising the minimum wage is getting demolished - Salon.com







.

So a DOL website and salon is your unbiased research?

I guess if you truly believe this thought then you believe in trickle down economics ?

 

[BrianSD_42]

Source? I've ready PLENTY of research suggesting just the opposite. In fact, putting more money in the hands of consumers tends to increase economic activity. Don't forget that labour only represents a portion of what something costs, not all of it.

https://www.dol.gov/featured/minimum-wage/mythbuster

One of the most popular arguments against raising the minimum wage is getting demolished - Salon.com.

One thing I always try to keep in mind when people argue economics is that is isn't science. It's social science. These two are absolutely not the same thing.

It's a simple fact that depending on which college you go to you will be more heavily taught one of two primary schools of economic rational.

Something can't be factual if you can be taught a different academic truth depending on whether you went to University of Chicago or MIT. The "economic truths" out there are much more like "the best we theory know yet cannot prove at this time"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schools_of_economic_thought

I brought it up because is something that is rarely mentioned in news articles or on TV. Simply put depending on which college you attend, the sky is either purple or orange, at least as far as economics is concerned.


:snacker:

 

[jwkilgore]

Fact: Social mobility is real. I've seen it happen personally, going from lower-middle-class to upper-middle-class. And before you say "it's still middle class", I can personally verify there is a massive difference between the two levels. I've also seen homeless-poor transition to middle class, and middle-class transition to poor.

Fact: This country is plenty wealthy enough such that no one should be allowed to starve or die of some easily curable disease. That doesn't means the poor should live in luxury.

Fact: Progressive income taxes are required in a modern society. A "flat" tax puts most of the burden of running the government on the middle class. Rich talk-show hosts who say otherwise are spinning yarns (lying?) to protect their own wealth.

Fact: The minimum wage, when adjusted for inflation, is very low. Much lower than in the 1960's and 70's.

Opinion: Raising the minimum wage to $15 is ridiculous. A minimum-wage job should be a stepping-stone to something better, not a career choice. But still, it's too low as is. Anyone who is willing to actually get out and work should be above poverty level at a minimum. In some states people on welfare actually have a better standard of living than if they had a minimum-wage job. Personally, I believe minimum wage should be set at a national minimum that is automatically adjusted for inflation with higher rates in some localized areas. These rates should be set by the GSA in the exact same way they currently set government travel expenses. Reason: It's much cheaper to live in rural Mississippi or Iowa than it is to live in New Orleans or Los Angeles.

 

[jwkilgore]

Remaining neutral, is by nature, the job of a moderator. Which is why I took notice of your remarks. I hadn't noticed the mod signature of past posts. That's smart.

On some other forums I participate in, when the mods also participate in active discussion they'll put "mod" posts in Angry Mod Red or Pacifist Mod Blue or something similar to totally differentiate. And they put this info in their sig so everyone knows that the non-mod posts are such. Just a thought... I'm not a mod :tape:

 

[Crazysnowbdr]

Actually raising the national minimum wage to $15/hr doesn't just hurt businesses that rely on minimum wage workers it also hurts small manufacturing. Lets say I pay my partially skilled labor force $15/hr, when the minimum wage goes up I will have to raise their hourly rate which in turn raises my labor cost which in turn raises my sale price. The raise of that sale price not prices me out of the market value for my products. My company slowly dies as I put more and more of my own personal money into it. This is a fact and it is happening as we speak.

 

[97BlackAckCL]

:hiding:

 

[-JD-]

Actually raising the national minimum wage to $15/hr doesn't just hurt businesses that rely on minimum wage workers it also hurts small manufacturing. Lets say I pay my partially skilled labor force $15/hr, when the minimum wage goes up I will have to raise their hourly rate which in turn raises my labor cost which in turn raises my sale price. The raise of that sale price not prices me out of the market value for my products. My company slowly dies as I put more and more of my own personal money into it. This is a fact and it is happening as we speak.

Won't your competitors also have you raise their prices comparatively?

As industries grow it's often the biggest companies that drive down wages. Smaller competing businesses have to lower their wages to compete with the market pricing of the big guys with lower overhead and paying lower wages (think how WalMart effected retail).

 

[nevada]

Fact: Progressive income taxes are required in a modern society. A "flat" tax puts most of the burden of running the government on the middle class. Rich talk-show hosts who say otherwise are spinning yarns (lying?) to protect their own wealth.

a flat tax is the only truly fair way to do things.




Opinion: Raising the minimum wage to $15 is ridiculous. A minimum-wage job should be a stepping-stone to something better, not a career choice. But still, it's too low as is. Anyone who is willing to actually get out and work should be above poverty level at a minimum. In some states people on welfare actually have a better standard of living than if they had a minimum-wage job. Personally, I believe minimum wage should be set at a national minimum that is automatically adjusted for inflation with higher rates in some localized areas. These rates should be set by the GSA in the exact same way they currently set government travel expenses. Reason: It's much cheaper to live in rural Mississippi or Iowa than it is to live in New Orleans or Los Angeles.

raising minimum wage will not bring anyone out of poverty, all it will do is raise the poverty level.

Won't your competitors also have you raise their prices comparatively?

As industries grow it's often the biggest companies that drive down wages. Smaller competing businesses have to lower their wages to compete with the market pricing of the big guys with lower overhead and paying lower wages (think how WalMart effected retail).

so, the rich get richer?

 

[-JD-]

so, the rich get richer?

right. thats what I'm saying is happening right now. They drive wages down in the industry and as a non unionized employee there's not much you can do about it.

 

[nevada]

right. thats what I'm saying is happening right now. They drive wages down in the industry and as a non unionized employee there's not much you can do about it.

you can get a different job. a union isn't needed for that.

the best thing we could do as far as wages, is to remove the federal minimum wage completely. let the free job market sort itself out.
it would be rough at first, but it would get better once the market stabilized.

if a company isn't paying enough to keep quality employees, they will either have to start paying more, or close their doors.

 

[-JD-]

According to economic theory, a free market transaction is one between two parties who both have perfect information about the state of the market – what others are paying for the same goods. Operating on a level playing field, free from explicit or implicit coercion, they each pursue their own interests, and in the end agree to a price that’s no higher than what the market will bear.

That comes pretty close to describing salary negotiations between employers and highly skilled professionals, or unions representing large numbers of lower-wage workers. It bears little resemblance to a “negotiation” between an individual who needs a low-wage job to survive and a huge company with teams of human resources experts and labor consultants.

As any introductory economics textbook will tell you, when a seller agrees to a price for his or her goods that’s below what it costs to produce them, that’s not a proper free market transaction. And yet, according to Census Bureau data, over ten million workers struggle beneath the poverty line, unable to afford the minimal costs of survival – for nutrition, housing and health care – and these people are selling their labor for less than it costs them to produce it.

As a result, taxpayers indirectly subsidize the profits of low-wage employers. Studies have found that workers at a single Wal-Mart receive as much as $900,000 in Medicaid, food stamps and other assistance, and that low-wage workers in the fast-food industry alone claim $7 billion per year in public benefits. It’s remarkable that anyone who claims fealty to the free market would argue that this doesn’t represent a market failure.

 

[Crazysnowbdr]

Won't your competitors also have you raise their prices comparatively?

As industries grow it's often the biggest companies that drive down wages. Smaller competing businesses have to lower their wages to compete with the market pricing of the big guys with lower overhead and paying lower wages (think how WalMart effected retail).

That would be true but I compete with China and Mexico. The only other company in the US that does the same thing as me is so far behind they are not competition

 

[jwkilgore]

raising minimum wage will not bring anyone out of poverty, all it will do is raise the poverty level.

Not true at all. The problem is that the poverty level is already rising because of inflation, but the minimum wage isn't keeping up. Again, raising it to $15 is ridiculous. Raising it to match historical levels based on inflation (~$10-$11) with local variations based on cost of living is necessary and won't overly affect inflation.

Fact: If the USA moves to a flat tax rate, the multi-millionaire talk show hosts you listen to will get a huge tax break and your average middle-class friends and neighbors will get a huge tax increase.

the best thing we could do as far as wages, is to remove the federal minimum wage completely. let the free job market sort itself out.
it would be rough at first, but it would get better once the market stabilized.
if a company isn't paying enough to keep quality employees, they will either have to start paying more, or close their doors.

Except 1) that's been tried and 2) it failed horribly.

In order for your scenario to work you need an educated and highly mobile work force. People have to know that they can do better elsewhere and be able to pull up stakes and move. Unfortunately for large parts of the country that just doesn't exist. Lots and lots of people can't or won't move for any number of reasons (taking care of elderly family, not enough resources to pay for a move, not enough education to know they can move, etc.).

 

[-JD-]

That would be true but I compete with China and Mexico. The only other company in the US that does the same thing as me is so far behind they are not competition

So that is the real problem. Exporting labour overseas is not something I support, but seems to be the reality of the economy these days. As I said, big business will force you there eventually if you are going to compete with their costs.

Thats' really a different issue though. Unfortunately 'free trade' agreements seem to increasingly be forcing workers in western countries to compete with Asian labour prices. At the expense of the workers here and the gain of the companies owners. IMO this is a big part of what has contributed to the income inequality we see these days.

 

[nevada]

Not true at all. The problem is that the poverty level is already rising because of inflation, but the minimum wage isn't keeping up. Again, raising it to $15 is ridiculous. Raising it to match historical levels based on inflation (~$10-$11) with local variations based on cost of living is necessary and won't overly affect inflation.

Fact: If the USA moves to a flat tax rate, the multi-millionaire talk show hosts you listen to will get a huge tax break and your average middle-class friends and neighbors will get a huge tax increase.

Except 1) that's been tried and 2) it failed horribly.

In order for your scenario to work you need an educated and highly mobile work force. People have to know that they can do better elsewhere and be able to pull up stakes and move. Unfortunately for large parts of the country that just doesn't exist. Lots and lots of people can't or won't move for any number of reasons (taking care of elderly family, not enough resources to pay for a move, not enough education to know they can move, etc.).

you think poverty is just a number? if so, we can move millions out of poverty instantly, we will just change that number.

poverty is a way of life. just giving them more money wont automatically take them out of poverty. since its not JUST a number, it is also relative to location, and many other factors. someone living in poverty in LA, would be able to live MUCH better say in rural Nebraska.



I am 100%, absolutely OK with that, and its just exactly the way it should be. everyone needs to pay their fair share, and the ONLY way to do that is with a flat tax, based on a percentage.

if you think a flat tax will give the top earners a tax break, then you must also believe they are paying more taxes. but, I thought the rich were evil, tax evaders? which is it?

a flat tax will put the burden equally on everyone. its not right if someone works hard, and is successful to be penalized more than someone who is lazy, or sits around popping out kids.

its been done? when, and where? recently?

correct, we would need a educated, and skilled work force. something that would COME from the removal of a minimum wage. currently, we have a lazy, low skilled work force, THANKS to the minimum wage being what it is. nobody has to work hard, the government mandates we pay them FAR more than they are worth. this removes the incentive to work harder, this is backwards from what we need to be doing.

 

[WFO_Racer]

Trump or Clinton is like saying one túrd is better than the other túrd in the bowl.

A once proud Alpha nation sinking.