Failed transmission questions

[Gulah]

There are technical bulletins against T4 fluid in our particular transmissions. I don't know about toyota ws fluid. [ thats made by Castrol import for toyota]

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Oops I was confused about the Toyota fluid as my other vehicles vehicles specify the Toyota WS, which didn't exist until 2004 i guess. I'm really not sure what's best but I'm going ahead with the maxlife hopefully tomorrow. Here's all the manual has to say:

Updates for those following along:
I pulled the incorrect pan but the gasket tore when I tried to remove it. Sourced a new cheapo gasket from autozone as Yota1 didn't include a replacement. Got the hard lines cleaned and installed, all the drive shafts are in and torqued, crossmember # 4, etc etc. I've got all my bumper lights and winch disconnected and a helper coming tomorrow to pull the bumper so I can install the new cooler and soft lines. After that it's final checklist time, fill fluids, install shifters and pray for a clean start without any scary noises.

I'll take a pan comparison photo tomorrow.

 

[mtbtim]

Oops I was confused about the Toyota fluid as my other vehicles vehicles specify the Toyota WS, which didn't exist until 2004 i guess. I'm really not sure what's best but I'm going ahead with the maxlife hopefully tomorrow. Here's all the manual has to say:

Updates for those following along:
I pulled the incorrect pan but the gasket tore when I tried to remove it. Sourced a new cheapo gasket from autozone as Yota1 didn't include a replacement. Got the hard lines cleaned and installed, all the drive shafts are in and torqued, crossmember # 4, etc etc. I've got all my bumper lights and winch disconnected and a helper coming tomorrow to pull the bumper so I can install the new cooler and soft lines. After that it's final checklist time, fill fluids, install shifters and pray for a clean start without any scary noises.

I'll take a pan comparison photo tomorrow.

Did Yota1 tell you if the trans comes pre-filled with any fluid?

When [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] (Sean) and I swapped a Toyota remanufactured trans into his 3rd Gen, there was some fluid in it but we couldn't get a clear answer from Toyota how much was in there. What we did is filled the trans until we could see fluid on the dipstick. We started it very briefly, like a couple seconds, and shut it down. Then we rechecked the level. If the level dropped and was no longer registering on the dipstick, we added until fluid level was registering again. We did it this way because we didn't know if the torque converter, which holds a lot of fluid, came mostly empty or possibly had an appreciable amount of fluid already in it. Once the fluid level stayed stable after a brief start and stop, we started the engine and let it run and checked the level on the dipstick. If the level wasn't in the cold range or not registering on the dipstick, we shut the engine down, added what we felt was the right amount erring on too little as opposed to too much, and then started the engine and checked the level. When we finally got the fluid level into the cold range on the dipstick while running, we took it for a test drive to make sure it was shifting properly and to also raise the fluid temp to the operating range which is somewhere around 158-176 F. We rechecked the fluid level with the trans at operating temp and dialed in the fluid level.

But, I'm guessing Yota1 told you how much fluid, if any, is in the trans. I just wanted to share what Sean and I had to do with his trans because the Toyota parts department we bought the trans from couldn't give us a clear answer how much fluid the trans was pre-filled with.

 

[Gulah]

Did Yota1 tell you if the trans comes pre-filled with any fluid?

When [MENTION=102606]infamousRNR[/MENTION] (Sean) and I swapped a Toyota remanufactured trans into his 3rd Gen, there was some fluid in it but we couldn't get a clear answer from Toyota how much was in there. What we did is filled the trans until we could see fluid on the dipstick. We started it very briefly, like a couple seconds, and shut it down. Then we rechecked the level. If the level dropped and was no longer registering on the dipstick, we added until fluid level was registering again. We did it this way because we didn't know if the torque converter, which holds a lot of fluid, came mostly empty or possibly had an appreciable amount of fluid already in it. Once the fluid level stayed stable after a brief start and stop, we started the engine and let it run and checked the level on the dipstick. If the level wasn't in the cold range or not registering on the dipstick, we shut the engine down, added what we felt was the right amount erring on too little as opposed to too much, and then started the engine and checked the level. When we finally got the fluid level into the cold range on the dipstick while running, we took it for a test drive to make sure it was shifting properly and to also raise the fluid temp to the operating range which is somewhere around 158-176 F. We rechecked the fluid level with the trans at operating temp and dialed in the fluid level.

But, I'm guessing Yota1 told you how much fluid, if any, is in the trans. I just wanted to share what Sean and I had to do with his trans because the Toyota parts department we bought the trans from couldn't give us a clear answer how much fluid the trans was pre-filled with.

I don't believe there is any fluid in it, besides maybe gasket lubrication etc. I asked Nick about filling the torque converter in one of our first conversations after seeing it in your video, and as I recall he said don't worry about it, it fills very quickly. I also didn't notice any sloshing when i spun it a little to align bolt holes. The pan is dry.

In a later conversation when I asked about initial fill, neither of us could recall the exact capacity, but my extrapolation of the instructions is fill 4 quarts, tap the starter, add 4 quarts, bring to temperature, fine tune level. I'm going to monitor the dipstick level through the process, and probably add a little more after the second fill to account for the extra lines and aux cooler.

I think your process is excellent. Thank you.

 

[mtbtim]

I don't believe there is any fluid in it, besides maybe gasket lubrication etc. I asked Nick about filling the torque converter in one of our first conversations after seeing it in your video, and as I recall he said don't worry about it, it fills very quickly. I also didn't notice any sloshing when i spun it a little to align bolt holes. The pan is dry.

In a later conversation when I asked about initial fill, neither of us could recall the exact capacity, but my extrapolation of the instructions is fill 4 quarts, tap the starter, add 4 quarts, bring to temperature, fine tune level. I'm going to monitor the dipstick level through the process, and probably add a little more after the second fill to account for the extra lines and aux cooler.

I think your process is excellent. Thank you.

The system holds approximately 12 quarts. If the trans is truly empty, I'd do the process you stated but do a 3rd addition with 3 quarts and then start the rig leaving it running to dial in the level. So 4 quarts, 4 quarts, and 3 quarts.

I don't know if tapping the starter is enough to move a significant amount of fluid. That's why we started the engine very briefly, no more than a couple seconds and then shut it down.

 

[Gulah]

The system holds approximately 12 quarts. If the trans is truly empty, I'd do the process you stated but do a 3rd addition with 3 quarts and then start the rig leaving it running to dial in the level. So 4 quarts, 4 quarts, and 3 quarts.

I don't know if tapping the starter is enough to move a significant amount of fluid. That's why we started the engine very briefly, no more than a couple seconds and then shut it down.

I'll make sure not to run it excessively low, make sure the brief starts move fluid, and monitor the levels closely, thank you. I'll report back with how it goes and how much fluid I put in.

Other updates for those interested:
I ran in to some more hiccups today. I went to install my old pan that Yota1 shipped back to me with the gasket I sourced locally last night. There wasn't a drain plug in it so I had to swap that over, and they didn't include a single use crush washer either. Fortunately I had one in stock that I was able to find after some digging. I found it interesting that Yota1 appeared to use some FIPG on the drain plug threads in addition to the factory crush washer. I personally have never had a leak there. Here is a pan comparison photo:

Mine is the one with the bend in the fill tube. Make sure you get the right one.

I installed the drain pan by threading all the bolts in loosely in multiple passes. I then proceeded to the final pass to 65inlb and I discovered one of the holes had stripped threads. I marked it in white paint in the following photo:

I removed the bolt and saw there was a large amount of FIPG at the end of the bolt. I think I would have noticed it if it was there when I installed the bolt, and it leads me to conclude that the hole was likely filled to hold the bolt in and this was a known issue when the rebuild was conducted by Yota1. (EDIT see later post I no longer think this was likely the case, to be continued. apologies) Photo:

I can't say for certain I didn't strip the threads, though I was super gentle snugging stuff up and I was using an inch.pound torque wrench in the middle of its range. It has never been calibrated since I've owned it, but I have no reason to suspect it is off by a large amount. You could also probably conclude from this thread that I'm pretty meticulous about my torque procedures and there was no lapse in this process. I can also appreciate that discovering the failed threads after rebuilding this transmission wouldn't leave a ton of good options and all will probably be fine. That said, it was a very dissapointing discovery, especially when considered in conjuction with the other pan difficulties and related setbacks. Anyways, I called it a day here. (EDIT to add: while i was gentle snugging everything up, starting bolts through the paper gasket was sometimes difficult and the threads didnt always feel smooth, which is something that hasn't been rare in this project especially in threaded holes that have been painted. My initial installation of the gasket was misaligned. Upon further consideration, these threads should have felt smooth since I removed bolts from them. Apologies for being more confident in a conclusion that I now doubt upon further consideration).

I plan on calling Nick tomorrow and getting some suggestions I guess. It looks like the hole could be drilled out to a bolted through-hole if necessary, but maybe the rest of the bolt are sufficient with a dab of FIPG. I don't love either option after spending top dollar on this transmission obviously. (EDIT I plan to investigate more and think it's more likely i had some gasket issue and damaged the threads, again apologies)

 

[Endlessblockades]

I find it odd that a rebuilt transmission of this quality level (high) and expense did not have an oil fill sheet like a crate motor does.

Edit - I hadn't read your comments about the pan yet when I posted my previous remark. Hmmm...

 

[JBurt]

I just went through your whole thread and really appreciate your attention to detail and the accompanying pictures.

That is a big let down with that bolt. I agree with your assessment. Seems like a prime candidate for a helicoil. Not a perfect solution, but seems like it would work.

 

[Gulah]

I just went through your whole thread and really appreciate your attention to detail and the accompanying pictures.

That is a big let down with that bolt. I agree with your assessment. Seems like a prime candidate for a helicoil. Not a perfect solution, but seems like it would work.

Thank you for the kind words and analysis. I agree a helicoil would probably be functional too.

 

[Gulah]

I'll make sure not to run it excessively low, make sure the brief starts move fluid, and monitor the levels closely, thank you. I'll report back with how it goes and how much fluid I put in.

Other updates for those interested:
I ran in to some more hiccups today. I went to install my old pan that Yota1 shipped back to me with the gasket I sourced locally last night. There wasn't a drain plug in it so I had to swap that over, and they didn't include a single use crush washer either. Fortunately I had one in stock that I was able to find after some digging. I found it interesting that Yota1 appeared to use some FIPG on the drain plug threads in addition to the factory crush washer. I personally have never had a leak there. Here is a pan comparison photo:

Mine is the one with the bend in the fill tube. Make sure you get the right one.

I installed the drain pan by threading all the bolts in loosely in multiple passes. I then proceeded to the final pass to 65inlb and I discovered one of the holes had stripped threads. I marked it in white paint in the following photo:

I removed the bolt and saw there was a large amount of FIPG at the end of the bolt. I think I would have noticed it if it was there when I installed the bolt, and it leads me to conclude that the hole was likely filled to hold the bolt in and this was a known issue when the rebuild was conducted by Yota1. Photo:

I can't say for certain I didn't strip the threads, though I was super gentle snugging stuff up and I was using an inch.pound torque wrench in the middle of its range. It has never been calibrated since I've owned it, but I have no reason to suspect it is off by a large amount. You could also probably conclude from this thread that I'm pretty meticulous about my torque procedures and there was no lapse in this process. I can also appreciate that discovering the failed threads after rebuilding this transmission wouldn't leave a ton of good options and all will probably be fine. That said, it was a very dissapointing discovery, especially when considered in conjuction with the other pan difficulties and related setbacks. Anyways, I called it a day here.

I plan on calling Nick tomorrow and getting some suggestions I guess. It looks like the hole could be drilled out to a bolted through-hole if necessary, but maybe the rest of the bolt are sufficient with a dab of FIPG. I don't love either option after spending top dollar on this transmission obviously.

I'm now wondering if maybe that is paper gasket material crushed into the end of the bolt. I did have an alignment issue as I was getting things started and the holes in the gasket are slightly smaller than the bolt. Insufficient thread engagement could strip out the bottom threads if load was applied on too few threads, and then my second attempt could have taken care of the remaing deeper threads. I would have thought the holes could 130in.lb which would be the worst case double loading scenario, but maybe not. I pulled two other bolts for comparison, I thought one had traces of FIPG but much less.

Definitely need to drop the pan and investigate more before jumping to any conclusions.

 

[jgue467]

Gulah - How's it going with the transmission from Toyo1?

Mine may arrive next week....

 

[Gulah]

I'm now wondering if maybe that is paper gasket material crushed into the end of the bolt. I did have an alignment issue as I was getting things started and the holes in the gasket are slightly smaller than the bolt. Insufficient thread engagement could strip out the bottom threads if load was applied on too few threads, and then my second attempt could have taken care of the remaing deeper threads. I would have thought the holes could 130in.lb which would be the worst case double loading scenario, but maybe not. I pulled two other bolts for comparison, I thought one had traces of FIPG but much less.

Definitely need to drop the pan and investigate more before jumping to any conclusions.

Finally had time to drop the pan and investigate more yesterday. Some updates, clarifications, corrections:

Only about half of the threaded holes for the pan bolts are in what I would call good or better condition. Here are some photos of some holes after I removed the bolts (that I reinstalled) prior to cleaning or investigating.

And the hole that's completely stripped out:

The holes on the side of the pan are actually through holes so that's good.

I looked a little closer at the gasket install from yota1:

The gasket appears to be very high quality (several tiers better than what I sourced locally) and there is some black sealant between the gasket and the pan, presumably applied seperately from the gasket. It looks like it would have been extremely well sealed, though I don't know what sealant they are using (definitely not OEM orange 00295-01281 three bond 1281). In retrospect it was probably impossible/illadvised to try to reuse this gasket anyways.

Regarding my poorly explained paper gasket issues:
In my installation process the gasket got flipped around and only some of the holes lined up. Prior to noticing I poked a small hole through one spot where the holes weren't aligned. After my initial post I was haunted by the idea that I caused the issue, and made a bad conclusion that disparaged an innocent party. My thinking was maybe the paper from that hole was lodged into the threaded hole, bottom out the screw, and cause the stripping. It turns out my screwup hole doesn't align with the bolt hole in question, there are several other similar bolt holes, and the hole is a through hole anyways.

All that being said, I can't say for certain I didn't damage the holes in question, or push the failed hole over the edge at least. I was quite gentle but not super thorough in my cleaning of the holes or the bolts. I also wasn't aware of the sealant that Yota1 presumably used between the gasket and pan. To be fair there is is still some orange sealant around in the holes and on the bolts that Yota1 didn't clean either. There was at least one other bolt with a glob of what appears to be black sealant on the end, *possibly* aligned with my orignal hypothesis.

Anyways, I'm now experiencing a little timing pressure so I picked up some Toyota factory sealant, a helicoil kit, and a thread chaser tool. I hope to have this thing running this weekend one way or another, and I'm hoping I don't have to fix too many holes to be comfortable. While i did hit specified torque on all the bolts but one, after looking at the condition of several holes I'm doubtful I was hitting designed clamping load on several. Some gently probing with a pick pulled some loose threads out.

 

[jgue467]

Man I hope I have better luck and don't need to replace a pan. When I talked to them, they said they didn't like the first core they had for me so took longer to find another.

They told me 2 weeks earlier they were having a little trouble sourcing a good core. So I offered to send them mine, they said maybe needed yet never called me back to follow-up. In fact they never return my calls except the first one asking for my money, again hoping the get the correct pan since I did give them my VIN to get it all straight upfront.

Continued Luck on your endeavor.

 

[brillo_76]

They need to start stocking up on cores. As those will get less and less as time goes by.



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[Gulah]

Man I hope I have better luck and don't need to replace a pan. When I talked to them, they said they didn't like the first core they had for me so took longer to find another.

They told me 2 weeks earlier they were having a little trouble sourcing a good core. So I offered to send them mine, they said maybe needed yet never called me back to follow-up. In fact they never return my calls except the first one asking for my money, again hoping the get the correct pan since I did give them my VIN to get it all straight upfront.

Continued Luck on your endeavor.

Thanks, GL to you as well. At least they asked for your VIN, maybe my adventure prompted that. They just asked me to confirm kickdown cable or not, apparently they switched mid 2000. Having to switch pans seems absurd coming from toyota specialists, but what do I know. I plan to write a more thorough Yota1 review when this is all done, but FWIW I haven't had too much trouble getting them on the phone so maybe give it another shot. OTOH, they delivered a week+ late and I was never contacted in that period and was only given an update after I called them 1 week past due date. YMMV of course.

I made some progress this weekend, a little less than I hoped for. I gave every threaded hole individual attention. It was my first time using a thread chaser tool, but it was definitely the right tool for some of the job:

I rented it from my local autozone. It looks like a tap but instead of cutting threads it is designed to roll them back in place. I used it to clean/reform all of the useable threads.

After test torquing all the holes I ended up putting [OEM tools branded] heli-coils in two of the holes. The through hole previously discussed went very smoothly and seems to be holding well. Another hole, a blind one at the transfer case side seemed to accept the heli-coil well after drilling and tapping. I installed a bolt to torque, seemed ok, but when i removed it the threads on the screw were quite damaged. I was scared to drill out the hole more or try to replace the heli-coil, so for temporary purposes I scrounged a random M6 to use. It installed with resistance, but I'm hopeful it will hold.

Some preprepped bolts, you can notice the OEM FIPG (orange) and the assumed Yota1 FIPG (black).

I then thoroughly cleaned everything and installed the pan using the the OEM FIPG I picked up from my local dealer (almost $50!). It's a delicate and annoying process but I think it went alright. My garage has been about 50 degrees so I'm giving it 24hrs+ to cure. Here's the data sheet from Three Bond if anyone is curious:

FSM specifies 08826-00090 (Three Bond 1281 or equivalent) which has been superseeded by 00295-01281.

I got the dipstick and tube reinstalled, lubed my driveshafts while the skids are off, reinstalled the interior shifters and trim, and a few other odds and ends. Remaining is fluid fills, transcooler, soft lines, sway bar, and reviewing everything before startup. Maybe tomorrow, probably tuesday. Thoughts and prayers accepted.

 

[mtbtim]

Thanks, GL to you as well. At least they asked for your VIN, maybe my adventure prompted that. They just asked me to confirm kickdown cable or not, apparently they switched mid 2000. Having to switch pans seems absurd coming from toyota specialists, but what do I know. I plan to write a more thorough Yota1 review when this is all done, but FWIW I haven't had too much trouble getting them on the phone so maybe give it another shot. OTOH, they delivered a week+ late and I was never contacted in that period and was only given an update after I called them 1 week past due date. YMMV of course.

I made some progress this weekend, a little less than I hoped for. I gave every threaded hole individual attention. It was my first time using a thread chaser tool, but it was definitely the right tool for some of the job:

I rented it from my local autozone. It looks like a tap but instead of cutting threads it is designed to roll them back in place. I used it to clean/reform all of the useable threads.

After test torquing all the holes I ended up putting [OEM tools branded] heli-coils in two of the holes. The through hole previously discussed went very smoothly and seems to be holding well. Another hole, a blind one at the transfer case side seemed to accept the heli-coil well after drilling and tapping. I installed a bolt to torque, seemed ok, but when i removed it the threads on the screw were quite damaged. I was scared to drill out the hole more or try to replace the heli-coil, so for temporary purposes I scrounged a random M6 to use. It installed with resistance, but I'm hopeful it will hold.

Some preprepped bolts, you can notice the OEM FIPG (orange) and the assumed Yota1 FIPG (black).

I then thoroughly cleaned everything and installed the pan using the the OEM FIPG I picked up from my local dealer (almost $50!). It's a delicate and annoying process but I think it went alright. My garage has been about 50 degrees so I'm giving it 24hrs+ to cure. Here's the data sheet from Three Bond if anyone is curious:

FSM specifies 08826-00090 (Three Bond 1281 or equivalent) which has been superseeded by 00295-01281.

I got the dipstick and tube reinstalled, lubed my driveshafts while the skids are off, reinstalled the interior shifters and trim, and a few other odds and ends. Remaining is fluid fills, transcooler, soft lines, sway bar, and reviewing everything before startup. Maybe tomorrow, probably tuesday. Thoughts and prayers accepted.

Sorry to hear you're having so many issues in relation to the transmission pan and housing. My experience with Yota1 Performance has been very positive. I've used 3 of their engines for engine swap series we've filmed and everything has been great. When Nick told me he started rebuilding transmissions, I figured his business would be one I'd refer people to because I believe in their workmanship and I trust them. Does it suck the transmission pan bolt threads weren't optimal? Yeah, I wouldn't be happy either. Anyway, I hope after all the work and money spent, the trans shifts great and you'll be happily driving your rig around again.

 

[brillo_76]

I have seen thread on atm pan bolts strip out. Mostly that's from folks over tightening the steel bolts. The OP did well as cleaning threads and heli coiling would be your best options. It's all you can do once those threads are damaged.


It also can happen if the threads get rusty and destroy the threads when coming out too. [ that's more rare]

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[Gulah]

Sorry to hear you're having so many issues in relation to the transmission pan and housing. My experience with Yota1 Performance has been very positive. I've used 3 of their engines for engine swap series we've filmed and everything has been great. When Nick told me he started rebuilding transmissions, I figured his business would be one I'd refer people to because I believe in their workmanship and I trust them. Does it suck the transmission pan bolt threads weren't optimal? Yeah, I wouldn't be happy either. Anyway, I hope after all the work and money spent, the trans shifts great and you'll be happily driving your rig around again.

Thanks Tim. I remain very grateful for your contributions and advice, which I'm confident was sound regardless of any relationship you have with Yota1.

Frigid temps and family obligations are probably going to delay the conclusion of this saga a little longer, but I'll be sure to update when I make some more progress.

 

[Gulah]

Made a little time to work on things today and have one question for you experts please:
The new kickdown cable doesn't have ferrule like metal thing to adjust cable tension via the FSM, maybe it's an aftermarket cable. Should I just adjust it almost snug so there is no actuation with 0 throttle and minimal slack?

This is how I ended up mounting the cooler, I don't love it but it's isolate from the condenser and I used one of the included foam pads between the verticle frame support and cooler:

While I was in there I noticed the ground cable bridging the frame and body behind the bumper was severed. I managed to repair it with a missized lug i had in stock (visible in previous photo):

 

[Gulah]

Oops please disregard previous question. I need to install the stopper (ferrule like thing) and it was taped to the cable and included by Yota1.

 

[Endlessblockades]

Hoping it all works out for both of you. I've always kept Yota1 in the back of my mind if a windfall comes along that would let me consider going this route (which I have always considered top-shelf, no-surprises quality).

I really came here to ask if during this process anyone has come across a 'decoder' for the ID plates/tag on our A304F ATs? Just wondering what some of the numbers mean....