Finally ordered suspension/brake upgrade

[Paragon1]

Update Finally ordered suspension/brake upgrade

Bilstein 5100 front and rear, drilled/slotted front brake rotors, and green stuff brake pads. Looking forward to the install, will be doing it myself. Intending to post before/after performance vids.

Had enough of the nose dive and crappy braking, hoping this will clean things up, especially since I'm towing a 19ft boat fairly often. :beer:

**i was bored, and althoughn still have stitches in my wrist and had my knee scoped a couple weeks back i couldnt take another weekend on the couch!!!

So I went up to the auto hobby shop on base today with the intent of doing the shocks and pads since the rotors aren't here yet. Turned out I only had 90min before they closed... After I took all 4 wheels off. So instead I just did the back shocks and pads. Didn't get to take a lot of pics because of the compressed timeframe but here's A few notes.
- at 53k my rear pads were at 40% so I can't wait to see how bad the fronts are
- the rear shocks are beyond easy to install, no wonder there isnt a write up, unfortunately you can't retain the factory bushings which are surprisingly better quality than the bilsteins.
- Also, don't freak out when you pull the bottom bolt from the shock, it's short, you didn't snap it.
- definitely feel less shimmy going over speed bumps and whatnot.
- less rise in the rear when I hit the brakes hard.
- my wheels are freakin heavy and tricky to set back on the hub
- I owe the shop manager a case for going 15min over
- my wrist hurts like hell
- I love Percocet

That is all, I'll finish the install this week.

 

[K O]

I'm curious to hear how the upgraded rotors change your braking. Please keep us posted!

 

[hrothgar02]

Paragon,

Where did you order the slotted rotors and pads? I would like to upgrade my brakes as well. Thank you in advance.

RK

 

[Qjake]

The 5100's will definitely be an improvement, the rotor/pads i'm curious to hear about. I don't really have any complaints about my brakes (an improvement over my 09 Tacoma) other than the overactive boost feature on panic stops.

Keep us updated on the brakes plz

 

[Paragon1]

Paragon,

Where did you order the slotted rotors and pads? I would like to upgrade my brakes as well. Thank you in advance.

RK

Ordered the rotors from: Premium Dimpled and Slotted Brake Rotors

The rotors come with semi-metallic pads (which ill be selling) and I ordered the EBC green stuff pads from autoanything.

I'm swapping them out because I'm towing 3900 lbs worth of boat and gear all the time so I wanted to firm things up. The stock brakes are already squealing and I just hate the way they are acting right now, feeling weak. Can't wait to get them all on with the 5100's, should be sweet.

 

[Ryan1975]

Brakes expenditure will do nothing to increase performance other than to offer a visual experience.

 

[Stifler]

Brakes expenditure will do nothing to increase performance other than to offer a visual experience.

I am oing to have to agree with this 100% unless you increased the rotor size. EBC pretty good pads though. The problem with "performance" brake products is they are meant to be used hard..... if not they usually glaze over and just squeal like a pig

 

[realyfishy]

I am oing to have to agree with this 100% unless you increased the rotor size. EBC pretty good pads though. The problem with "performance" brake products is they are meant to be used hard..... if not they usually glaze over and just squeal like a pig

I also agree. Performance brake pads are designed to operate at a much higher consistent operating temperature. They need to be hotter than standard brake pads which are designed to cool off between stops.

 

[Paragon1]

I am oing to have to agree with this 100% unless you increased the rotor size. EBC pretty good pads though. The problem with "performance" brake products is they are meant to be used hard..... if not they usually glaze over and just squeal like a pig

I also agree. Performance brake pads are designed to operate at a much higher consistent operating temperature. They need to be hotter than standard brake pads which are designed to cool off between stops.

The EBC's I ordered are for standard SUV/truck use. I've run these rotors/pads on my other vehicles without any issues at all, and was able to verify the improvement was worthwhile through testing it before and after, I'll do the same here for those who are interested.

I'm towing all the time, and here in florida the average driver (Stifler, I know you know this) is about 85 and completely incapable of judging distance before pulling out in front of you... I've had to make several emergency stops while towing and the last one literally smoked my brakes (my trailer brakes are fine).

I know it won't cure the creeping at stop lights, but if I need help stopping in a hurry, I want to know I've done all I could. Secondly, i think the addition of the 5100's will also assist with braking, eliminating the insane nosedive (especially during emergency braking) which "may" help mitigate the brake boost issue associated with it. So thanks for your concern... But it's worth a try.

 

[1engineer]

The EBC's I ordered are for standard SUV/truck use. I've run these rotors/pads on my other vehicles without any issues at all, and was able to verify the improvement was worthwhile through testing it before and after, I'll do the same here for those who are interested.

I'm towing all the time, and here in florida the average driver (Stifler, I know you know this) is about 85 and completely incapable of judging distance before pulling out in front of you... I've had to make several emergency stops while towing and the last one literally smoked my brakes (my trailer brakes are fine).

I know it won't cure the creeping at stop lights, but if I need help stopping in a hurry, I want to know I've done all I could. Secondly, i think the addition of the 5100's will also assist with braking, eliminating the insane nosedive (especially during emergency braking) which "may" help mitigate the brake boost issue associated with it. So thanks for your concern... But it's worth a try.

I understand wanting to do all you can for safety. Here are a few numbers for reference though:

5th Gen 4Runner:
30-0 Braking - 30 ft
60-0 Braking - 122 ft
Slalom (std) - 58.4 mph

Latest Jeep Grand Cherokee (V-6):
30-0 Braking - 31 ft
60-0 Braking - 125 ft
Slalom (std) - 59.4 mph

Latest Ford Explorer (ecoboost):
30-0 Braking - 32 ft
60-0 Braking - 130 ft
Slalom (std) - 58.5 mph

I picked these competitors for fun because they all tow 5K, they weigh about the same, the Jeep is our closest competitor and the Explorer is an SUV totally unlike the 4Runner but technically an on road competitor. The 4Runner does not look too bad compared to these guys. Better tires will help with stopping distance.

The panic "brake boost" operation is determined by how fast you hit the brake and the force you hit it with so your mods will do nothing to assist you in this regard. The 5100's will help with nose dive although after having the SR5 and now the TE with KDSS (very little nose dive), the nose dive really did nothing detrimental to performance only perception.

The OEM brakes for many of us seem to be the better performing stock brakes that last a long time. I could have easily went 75K (had 68K on it when I traded) before needing new pads. Rotors looked great too.

One foot of stopping distance matters, either shorter or longer. Please do us a favor after getting new pads and take some time to do a 30-0 and 60-0 true test. It would be good to have options!

One last thing:
The 2013 Corvette Z06 has a stopping distance from 60-0 of 94 feet just for comparison.

 

[Paragon1]

Thanks for pulling those numbers! It'll be interesting to see how things pan out, even though none of these address towing.

As far as the nose dive, I disagree because heavy braking shifts the center of gravity forward, lifting weight off the back wheels thus reducing grip and causing the front wheels to take the majority of the burden when stopping. In one instance I almost lost control, granted it was on the stock crap tires and wheels and the stability control probably would've kept things inline. Bottom line, the stock handling suspension, brakes, wheels and tires are sub-par and were only used to help improve gas mileage, nothing more. I mean serously guys, when viewed from the back a stock 5th gen looks like a muffin top!

A level (or at least close to level) vehicle will always brake better than one that nosedives.

 

[<<<<]

... when viewed from the back a stock 5th gen looks like a muffin top!
QUOTE]

Not mine, it doesn't. It now has proportionaly 285/75/17 wide tires, 17x8 TRD wheels, and skid armor. As for brakes I'll upgrade if my stock ones warp. So far no issues. I understand that Toyota increased thickness of stock rotors in 5th gen due to warping issues 4th generation had.

 

[Paragon1]

... when viewed from the back a stock 5th gen looks like a muffin top!
QUOTE]

Not mine, it doesn't. It now has proportionaly 285/75/17 wide tires, 17x8 TRD wheels, and skid armor. As for brakes I'll upgrade if my stock ones warp. So far no issues. I understand that Toyota increased thickness of stock rotors in 5th gen due to warping issues 4th generation had.

So does mine, 275/65/18 on 18x9 fuel boost with a -12(i think) offset. Why? Because the STOCK 5th gen 4R's have muffin tops!!! Lol.

 

[Stifler]

The EBC's I ordered are for standard SUV/truck use. I've run these rotors/pads on my other vehicles without any issues at all, and was able to verify the improvement was worthwhile through testing it before and after, I'll do the same here for those who are interested.

I'm towing all the time, and here in florida the average driver (Stifler, I know you know this) is about 85 and completely incapable of judging distance before pulling out in front of you... I've had to make several emergency stops while towing and the last one literally smoked my brakes (my trailer brakes are fine).

I know it won't cure the creeping at stop lights, but if I need help stopping in a hurry, I want to know I've done all I could. Secondly, i think the addition of the 5100's will also assist with braking, eliminating the insane nosedive (especially during emergency braking) which "may" help mitigate the brake boost issue associated with it. So thanks for your concern... But it's worth a try.

I was referring more to the rotors in this case. Drilled and slotted rotors need to be paired with proper pads to really yield any results and they are usually an application for motorsports/racing etc... I just don't think there is value added in this scenario. Trailer brake system would do better IMO. Let us know how they work out.... I will never say never lol.

I hear ya about Florida drivers! they suck!

 

[1engineer]

Thanks for pulling those numbers! It'll be interesting to see how things pan out, even though none of these address towing.

As far as the nose dive, I disagree because heavy braking shifts the center of gravity forward, lifting weight off the back wheels thus reducing grip and causing the front wheels to take the majority of the burden when stopping. In one instance I almost lost control, granted it was on the stock crap tires and wheels and the stability control probably would've kept things inline. Bottom line, the stock handling suspension, brakes, wheels and tires are sub-par and were only used to help improve gas mileage, nothing more. I mean serously guys, when viewed from the back a stock 5th gen looks like a muffin top!

A level (or at least close to level) vehicle will always brake better than one that nosedives.

No problem. Here is the braking formula:
d = V2/(2g(f + G))

Where:
d = Braking Distance (ft)
g = Acceleration due to gravity (32.2 ft/sec2)
G = Roadway grade as a percentage; for 2% use 0.02
V = Initial vehicle speed (ft/sec)
f = Coefficient of friction between the tires and the roadway

The only place your "weight shift" contention will fit is coefficient of friction. While it is true the mass inertial shift during braking COULD cause a longer stopping distance, it would be by such a small distance that any other variable, such as tire pressure, tread wear, road surface, temperature or anything else such a a bumpy road would cause a longer stopping distance than the weight shift.

Now, IF you had two identical vehicles going the exact same speed with EVERY variable being the same then yes, the lack of weight shift might give you a millimeter or two better from 60 mph to zero.
Nothing changes stopping distance more than coefficient of friction of tire on road and speed, assuming your brakes are in good working order. You said in a post you wanted to do everything to get your stopping distance shorter. Getting a sticky wide summer tread tire would be the best thing to reduce stopping distance.

 

[Paragon1]

I've already increased the width and quality of the tires, so that's handled, but I've also increased the amount of rotating mass in the process. The new setup is significantly heavier than the old so that has to be factored in as well. I ❤ physics.

 

[1engineer]

I've already increased the width and quality of the tires, so that's handled, but I've also increased the amount of rotating mass in the process. The new setup is significantly heavier than the old so that has to be factored in as well. I ❤ physics.

So then you'll understand that even though you have increased the width and quality of your tire, you have installed a tire that actually has much less contact patch (rubber touching the road) than a summer tread tire of the same size and width and this will change the coefficient of friction a LOT. The Duratrac has a very open tread pattern for off road while a summer tire has a much denser tread pattern for optimal pavement contact. I don't have to tell you which one will stop several feet shorter do I, since you love physics lol.

Look, we both know that you are making compromises by going with a "tough, mean" tire vs. going with a much better (for braking and normal pavement traction) top of the line summer tire that of course will stop better than the Duratrac. I hope you do make up some distance by adding $$$ rotors and pads. It will be interesting to see so please post actual test results. Usually people just post their perceptions with no actual data, so then it becomes yet another useless post. Good luck!

 

[Stifler]

hey at least they will look pretty! you should paint your calipers red too!!!:behindsofa:

 

[eddiebx]

Look, we both know that you are making compromises by going with a "tough, mean" tire vs. going with a much better (for braking and normal pavement traction) top of the line summer tire that of course will stop better than the Duratrac. I hope you do make up some distance by adding $$$ rotors and pads. It will be interesting to see so please post actual test results. Usually people just post their perceptions with no actual data, so then it becomes yet another useless post. Good luck!

Admittedly, I haven't slammed on the brakes a lot to know for sure, but I could've sworn that the ABS engages with OEM brakes and duratracs. So...if we've already exceeded the coefficient of friction of the duratracs with stock brakes, what good is potentially increasing the braking force going to do as far as decreasing the stopping distances?

Out of curiosity, do the stock brakes fade very easily while towing? I've never towed with the 4runner before

 

[1engineer]

Admittedly, I haven't slammed on the brakes a lot to know for sure, but I could've sworn that the ABS engages with OEM brakes and duratracs. So...if we've already exceeded the coefficient of friction of the duratracs with stock brakes, what good is potentially increasing the braking force going to do as far as decreasing the stopping distances?

Out of curiosity, do the stock brakes fade very easily while towing? I've never towed with the 4runner before

Eddie, let's look at it from extreme examples:

1. You have solid steel skinny wheels and tires on your 4Runner. When you hit the brakes, what happens? Because of a low coefficient of friction, your brakes will start to lock up. Your ABS will then sense this and let off the brakes a bit so you can still maintain control. This of course happens extremely fast and feels like a pulse as feedback from the pedal. Since you have a ultra low coefficient of friction (steel on asphalt) you will have to go a long distance to get stopped because your ABS brakes will continue to "pulse" brake to assure control. After several hundred feet you will stop.

2. You have 285 Duratracs on OEM wheels. When you hit the brakes, your tires will get a grip and start to slow. As braking pressure increases, even the higher coefficient of friction will still start to slide, causing the ABS to pulse brake and eventually come to a stop.

3. You have 285 Bridgestone Potenza RE050A Pole Position high performance summer tires. Now you have some top of the line summer tread with maximum sticky rubber. You hit the brakes and you slow down. Continue pressure and these tires will continue to grip instead of slide, keeping the ABS at bay for longer distances. You WILL stop faster because these tires have more "rubber to road" contact than any AT or MT tire if the size is the same.

I can't find the article now but road and track I think changed the tires on a Corvette Z06 and instantly had 10 less feet of stopping distance because of tire compound. Listen, I can't say how much better these tires would do because I have not tested them. I can tell you with certainty though the best mod to better braking is high performance summer tires. AT or MT not so much. Unfortunately, again this is a world filled with compromises and most of us cannot have three or four sets of tires mounted up and ready to go. My point to the OP was he sounded like he was willing to do anything to get better stopping distance hence the different pads and rotors, yet he put a tire on his 4Runner that was not close to optimal for braking performance.