First Oil Change and Lube

[cbreze]

1E, I respect your knowledge on the various subjects regarding the 4runners. My reason for the oil change at 5k the first time around is more of a concern for the dusty conditions I have been needing to drive in. It even states in the manual oil changes are recommended at 5k for dusty driving conditions. Whether or not my conditions are dusty enough to warrant this is unknown for sure. I'll be inspecting my oil filter closely as well as my other filters for any detrimental dust issues and then go from there. I have always taken good care of all my previous vehicles and they have been good to me. Dust is a killer tho for any engine and I won't be able to hold out till I hit the magical 10k to find out what my filters look like.

 

[1engineer]

1E, I respect your knowledge on the various subjects regarding the 4runners. My reason for the oil change at 5k the first time around is more of a concern for the dusty conditions I have been needing to drive in. It even states in the manual oil changes are recommended at 5k for dusty driving conditions. Whether or not my conditions are dusty enough to warrant this is unknown for sure. I'll be inspecting my oil filter closely as well as my other filters for any detrimental dust issues and then go from there. I have always taken good care of all my previous vehicles and they have been good to me. Dust is a killer tho for any engine and I won't be able to hold out till I hit the magical 10k to find out what my filters look like.

That's fine. It does not matter to me if you or any others change your habits. I just had to put the science out there so if nothing else you and others will be aware of some factual data, not junk from your dad or incorrect posts from dumba$$es.

 

[ZJumper]

FWIW, feel free to flame away.

I've always done the first oil change on a new vehicle/motorcycle/boat engine or rebuilt engine etc right at 1000 miles, and did so with my T4R.

Each and every time I've found tiny metal particles in the oil filter and have observed a metallic "sheen" in the old oil looking while looking at it in the bright sunlight.

After the initial oil change, I've always gone with the manufacturers severe oil change intervals due the the areas I've lived in...high heat/cold in WA and extreme heat in CA. With the T4R, it's now every 5000.

In reality it all boils down to this: It's your vehicle. You maintain it how you see fit. If you change the oil every 2000 miles because you live in a dusty environment and it's 120* out, go for it. If you want to change the oil every 20,000 miles because you don't give a damn, go for it.

 

[eddiebx]

There's no need to do our own research anymore, we just got to push Greg's buttons and he's give us all the info we need

 

[hamburglar210]

If you guys REALLY care about your engine you would research oil FILTERS and particle size filtration and get the best one possible. Not all filters are equal! BTW some bacteria are around 3 microns in size, just for prospective.

Soooooooooooo what filter do you recommend?

 

[ZO6_Vette]

There are varied opinions on when you should perform your first oil change.
Many experts claim that replacing your oil early is pointless, I do not agree.

I am not sure what the standard Toyota oil filters efficiency numbers are, if someone knows post them.

A good oil filter will capture 90+% of particles 20 microns and larger, most smaller particles will pass through and continue to
recirculate through the lubrication system.

Engine wear studies have shown that particles in the 1 to 10 micron range (some say up to 25 microns) cause increased levels of wear.

Any oil testing on a new engine usually shows high levels of metal in a new engine, if the filter cannot remove them the only other way is to replace the oil.

 

[1engineer]

There are varied opinions on when you should perform your first oil change.
Many experts claim that replacing your oil early is pointless, I do not agree.

Why don't you agree? Do you have hard factual data to back it up (as I posted for my opinion) or something else? Does it just "seem" like the right thing to do? Not picking on you either specifically but there are a lot of people who think as you do and it makes absolutely no sense. Then they get on a forum and post about it for what reason? To somehow justify what they are doing is correct? Sorry. I'm sure some will agree with you but will have nothing other than "I have did it this way forever and I have not had an engine go bad." I can tell you I also know people who NEVER change their oil and guess what? They will tell you they don't wear out either.

There are no varied opinions from people who know something about oil and the science of wear.

 

[lilsid112]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] I have a question for you or whoever wants to answer it. A couple of my buddies own an e46 M3 and an e92 M3. They have a very strict break in procedure. For example, they can not exceed a certain speed or rpm for the first 1200 miles. Once 1200 miles have passed they go back to BMW where they replace engine, trans, and diff fluid. I know we are talking about different cars but what makes them so special?

 

[ZO6_Vette]

Why don't you agree? Do you have hard factual data to back it up (as I posted for my opinion) or something else? Does it just "seem" like the right thing to do? Not picking on you either specifically but there are a lot of people who think as you do and it makes absolutely no sense. Then they get on a forum and post about it for what reason? To somehow justify what they are doing is correct? Sorry. I'm sure some will agree with you but will have nothing other than "I have did it this way forever and I have not had an engine go bad." I can tell you I also know people who NEVER change their oil and guess what? They will tell you they don't wear out either.

There are no varied opinions from people who know something about oil and the science of wear.

OK then just answer the following questions for me please.

1)In a brand new engine are there particulates suspended in the oil between 1 and 20 microns.

Yes or No.

2)Will the stock oil filter remove them

Yes or No.

3)Have there been studies confirming that removing particulates 5 microns and smaller increases engine life.

Yes or No.

 

[1engineer]

[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] I have a question for you or whoever wants to answer it. A couple of my buddies own an e46 M3 and an e92 M3. They have a very strict break in procedure. For example, they can not exceed a certain speed or rpm for the first 1200 miles. Once 1200 miles have passed they go back to BMW where they replace engine, trans, and diff fluid. I know we are talking about different cars but what makes them so special?

Totally different specifications, manufacturing processes and materials. They are not special, just different. I'm quite sure the Lexus LFA has different specs too. I trust their engineers, along with Toyotas.

OK then just answer the following questions for me please.

1)In a brand new engine are there particulates suspended in the oil between 1 and 20 microns.

Yes or No.

2)Will the stock oil filter remove them

Yes or No.

3)Have there been studies confirming that removing particulates 5 microns and smaller increases engine life.

Yes or No.

1. Yes. Toyota then runs the engine under load tests, drains, flushes and refills them.

2. Stock filters will trap a percentage of the small particles not all. If you want to get a filter that will trap them all, google Pall filters. Overkill for passenger engines though.

3. Yes. SAE has published several papers on particulate removal. I once had a study from the '90's that had a 4.3L GM engine using Wix filters and changing oil and filter at recommended times. The engine ran (in a lab under controlled loads) an equivalent of 165,000 miles before it dropped to inadequate levels of performance. A similar engine, using synthetic fluid and a Pall filter (changed at an equivalent of 10K miles)was taken off the bench after 500,000 miles due to metal fatigue. Each engine was taken apart and inspected every 25K miles. The second engine still had clearances within spec.

 

[apextaco]

Hi everyone! My first post but was interested in the comments in this thread and thought I would share my perspective.

in my previous role as an engine designer/engineer for an OEM, I can confirm that changing oil earlier than recommended can do more harm than good on the latest generation of engines unless there has been water contamination. Most engine suppliers put a conditioner in the engine after hot test to help manage early hour fretting and to ensure the bores maintain their finish during the de-greening process. Most of the run in procedures do not have sufficient time at high load factors to finish the de-greening process hence why the first oil change recommendations. Each company does the break in differently so my advice is to follow the OEMs manual. A lot of R&D $ is spent on confirming specifications and to develop the correct warranty profiles.



Just my 2cents!!

 

[Barry694]

Oil Changes

In my opinion all of those changing synthetic oil at early intervals all you are doing is wasting money. I started using Amsoil synthetic back in about 1981 when it was relatively new on the market. I had a German made car and the independent mechanic who worked on the car only worked on German vehicles and he swore by it. I have been using synthetic since that time and change the oil at only recommended intervals and have never experienced any problems related to lubrication issues or premature wear on internal engine parts. The stuff is made to do what they state. I have had three new Lexus vehicles and numerous Toyota's (presently a 2012RUNNER) and I go the 10,000 mile route. However, on some Lexus models with synthetic oil the recommendation is still 5,000. I think that is done just to give the dealers the chance to make more money off of their customers.

 

[bamajvc]

well I work at the toyota engine plant in Alabama. I change my oil at the recommended intervals. No need to do it earlier.

 

[INDYMAC]

Hi everyone! My first post but was interested in the comments in this thread and thought I would share my perspective.

in my previous role as an engine designer/engineer for an OEM, I can confirm that changing oil earlier than recommended can do more harm than good on the latest generation of engines unless there has been water contamination. Most engine suppliers put a conditioner in the engine after hot test to help manage early hour fretting and to ensure the bores maintain their finish during the de-greening process. Most of the run in procedures do not have sufficient time at high load factors to finish the de-greening process hence why the first oil change recommendations. Each company does the break in differently so my advice is to follow the OEMs manual. A lot of R&D $ is spent on confirming specifications and to develop the correct warranty profiles.



Just my 2cents!!

Thanks for your post apextaco. Can you be more specific about this conditioner added by the OEM's to complete the wear-in process? What is it?

 

[philsey]

Hi everyone! My first post but was interested in the comments in this thread and thought I would share my perspective.

in my previous role as an engine designer/engineer for an OEM, I can confirm that changing oil earlier than recommended can do more harm than good on the latest generation of engines unless there has been water contamination. Most engine suppliers put a conditioner in the engine after hot test to help manage early hour fretting and to ensure the bores maintain their finish during the de-greening process. Most of the run in procedures do not have sufficient time at high load factors to finish the de-greening process hence why the first oil change recommendations. Each company does the break in differently so my advice is to follow the OEMs manual. A lot of R&D $ is spent on confirming specifications and to develop the correct warranty profiles.

MOST interesting/informative. I love reading stuff by smart guys. I'm bookmarking this page for the next 30 times this oil subject comes up.

Whenever I come across words I don't know, I always look them up (yer never too old to learn), eg "de-greening" and [especially] "fretting".

De-greening, I found, is synonymous with aging. But "fretting" - I had to search that one. FYI: "Fretting is the wearing away of metal between two machined surfaces that were designed for no movement."
.
.
.

Thanks for your post apextaco. Can you be more specific about this conditioner added by the OEM's to complete the wear-in process? What is it?

+1 Inquiring minds.....

 

[Latoya]

"Fretting"?

I thought that is what I was doing when playing the guitar.ound:

 

[cbreze]

Back in the day, and my days go back pretty far, alot of us had cars without working odometers. We determined when to check oil by the color. Clear=good
brown or amber=less good and black= change now. ;-)
Would some of you more knowledgeable types comment on color? I have mostly been under the impression that a darker color meant suspended particles, dirt etc in the oil, meaning it was doing it's job. So how dark is to dark? My 4R has 2700 miles on it and my oil has reached the light brown stage.
At this rate by the time it hits the 10K interval for the first change it seems it would be quite dirty. So I'm wondering how much dirt can the oil support and still be effective as a lubricant. I know it's a premium synthetic oil and all that, but dirt is dirt, right?

 

[1engineer]

Back in the day, and my days go back pretty far, alot of us had cars without working odometers. We determined when to check oil by the color. Clear=good
brown or amber=less good and black= change now. ;-)
Would some of you more knowledgeable types comment on color? I have mostly been under the impression that a darker color meant suspended particles, dirt etc in the oil, meaning it was doing it's job. So how dark is to dark? My 4R has 2700 miles on it and my oil has reached the light brown stage.
At this rate by the time it hits the 10K interval for the first change it seems it would be quite dirty. So I'm wondering how much dirt can the oil support and still be effective as a lubricant. I know it's a premium synthetic oil and all that, but dirt is dirt, right?

Dirt is not dirt lol. Anyway, the changing color of synthetic oil is simply the additives and detergents changing color over time, shearing and exposure to heat. You really can't tell how "dirty" the oil is by color anymore. Used to though back when no additives were used. Remember a particle that can do damage is 30 times smaller than the thickness of a human hair. Can't see those on the dipstick very well and the color of them could be the color of the additives after they changed, so no, do not go by color.

 

[1engineer]

MOST interesting/informative. I love reading stuff by smart guys. I'm bookmarking this page for the next 30 times this oil subject comes up.

Whenever I come across words I don't know, I always look them up (yer never too old to learn), eg "de-greening" and [especially] "fretting".

De-greening, I found, is synonymous with aging. But "fretting" - I had to search that one. FYI: "Fretting is the wearing away of metal between two machined surfaces that were designed for no movement."
.
.
.


+1 Inquiring minds.....

Phil, look up both "fretting" and "corrosion." Different than what you might think on term corrosion. Those words are used together a lot in my world.

 

[JeremyB]

It's a good story except your Toyota engine has already been ran,tested, drained and the oil changed before you got it.

Searched, but didn't find a source for this.
Here in the states, not all engines are hot tested. The ones that are don't have the oil changed aftewards. Is it different in Japan?