Front Diff Grinding/Groaning Cyclical Noise

[NauticalSR517]

Well I finally got the truck to the dealership and low and behold the tech heard the "noise"! They said the differential is back-ordered as everyone else said I was told an eta of Jan 30th so we shall see. I was pretty happy that everything went smooth and the dealership knew of the issue and didn't give me any grief. I presented the TSB to the service girl and she made a comment about how many Tacomas have been there and fixed.
Updates to come!

 

[Matt831]

A lot of good info here.

Just wanted to check and see if anyone with a later build 2019, VIN outside of the TSB has this issue.

My March 2019 build does, most noticeable in colder temps.

Curious as to the updated fix and what Toyota did with the replacement DIFFS to fix. I am assuming a production change was made and my truck has it but still have the noise.

 

[RichinRidgewood]

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I watched this video and I’m not onboard with this guys analysis based on what he has shown. 50 thousandths is a lot of slop for any bearing and I’m sure there is a reason why the cage isn’t machined.

Haphazardly sticking a solid busing into a location where an oiled bearing used to be IMHO is asking for trouble. Seizure at highways speeds, loss of control etc. I would want to see this guy do some sort of cyclic testing at least on bench before I would consider this mod.

 

[themaestro]

I watched this video and I’m not onboard with this guys analysis based on what he has shown. 50 thousandths is a lot of slop for any bearing and I’m sure there is a reason why the cage isn’t machined.

Haphazardly sticking a solid busing into a location where and oiled bearing used to be IMHO is asking for trouble. Seizure at highways speeds, loss of control etc. I would want to see this guy do some sort of cyclic testing at least on bench before I would consider this mod.

I have 20k miles on my ECGS bushing, no issues so far :noidea:

 

[Kazzy4RNR]

Having gone through this myself, I don’t understand why the dealerships fight us so hard when we describe the groaning/vibration and present the TSB.

I was armed with knowledge from the two threads on the needle bearing issue both times I went to the dealer. I had the additional problem that the groaning/vibration became unnoticeable in warm weather & unfortunately the weather had turned warm when I went to the dealer the first time the groaning/vibration arose. When the weather turned cold again & the groaning returned, I almost felt lucky that the service tech felt/heard the groaning during the test drive & agreed it was the needle bearing covered by the TSB. Mine was still under warranty, so I was willing to get the Toyota part rather than getting the aftermarket part - my reason simply being to exhaust the warranty option before shelling out $ for the aftermarket part.

My advice if you are having this issue is to stay diligent with the dealer.

 

[mashburned]

The dude’s story above about “walking in mentioning the TSB, replaced no questions asked” is so foreign to me I almost think it’s fake. I think it will take a solid 3-5 trips to my local dealer to get this done. Debating going this morning because I have the time, it’s cold, and this will be the 2nd time they tell “yea I can hear it a little, but it’s not loud enough”.

I got this winter, plus 2 more to get this worked out under warranty.

 

[NauticalSR517]

The only advice I could give others to try and speed up the dealerships participation in this matter would be to bring the truck on the coldest day possible. I realize for many around the country thats not as easy as it was for me in New England. I took mine in on a low 30 degree day which i'm sure helped greatly identify the noise.
Hang in there stay positive and continue to bring up the issue until its fixed. If all else fails try another Toyota dealership!

 

[Nitro2016]

Hello all! 1st post here

Just visited my dealer with this issue and they quoted the TSB on the service estimate and are ordering the differential to be replaced under warranty. (41K miles on my 2016 4Runner) no idea how long it will take them to get one.

Has anyone had the chance to look at the difference between diff # 41110-35A91 and the new diff # 41110-35A92 ????

The ECGS solution is very interesting and they claim to have sold over 5500 bushings so far with no issues for the 8". In some photos it does appear that there's an oil galley that allows fluid into the needle bearing, no? With the ECGS bushing no fluid can get in?

Seems like Toyota had a definite bad design issue here and hopefully the new diff is better. We'll see.

 

[Jersey 4 runnin]

had the bearing replaced under warr. on my 17

so I had this issue around 30k on 2017 4 runner SR5. for me, it occurred when the temperature was less than like 40 degrees. I ended up taking it in on a night when it was about 27 and you could hear it in the cabin the entire ride.

I told them what it was and mentioned the TSB (make sure you tell them it goes away in 4wd). With past experiences with Stealerships I came there ready to fight. 1st the tech drove it, then they had a master tech ride with him and they did confirm that was the issue and fixed under warr. all dealers are different though, I didn't expect for it to be this easy and I don't think other dealers will be.

my advice is to take it in on a cold day and don't drop it off. make sure its not a weekend, because they usually have small crews just doing brakes and oil changes on those days. I was very specific about what it was and like I said I wasn't rude or anything, but I was ready for an argument if it got there. its been about 1.5yrs later and 20k miles and still no issues. average temp right now is like 35 degrees so I always listen for it out of habbit, so far so good.

Dealer was the Newark Toyotaworld in Delaware

 

[Jetboy]

My dealer didn't want to do it for 2 visits. Was there recently and took the mechanic for another drive. He said - yep sounds like the bearing, and they replaced under warranty. 2015 with 55k miles (toyota platinum care extended warranty - I'm out of the TSB 5 year window). It may be that the TSB doesn't pay as well as the extended warranty?? Either way - its silent again. I have the ECGS bushing but they wouldn't install as a warranty replacement so I'll wait until next time. I understand why they wouldn't swap them under warranty.

Anyway - annoying issue that should have been fixed by Toyota a long time ago.

Edit: just FWIW, my 4Runner has ~ 2" lift and 33" tires. No problems at all with respect to the lift or tires voiding warranty.

 

[Krayziekid]

Just throwing my experience in the mix. Had the noise for a little while (maybe the past 1k miles or so?) on my 2018 TRD ORP. Definitely got worse as it got colder up here in the Northeast and shifting to 4Hi fixed it.

Went to my dealer and mentioned the noise, the TSB, and the fact that it goes away in 4HI last Friday (1/24) while I was getting my 20k service. They kept the 4Runner until the early afternoon and called me to come pick it up. They said the master tech drove the 4Runner and definitely heard the noise and said it would fit the TSB. Was told they would order the new front diff but it would take 2.5 weeks for the diff to arrive. I could drive the 4Runner in the meantime.

Come Monday evening (1/27) I got a call that they had a diff and that they could do the warranty work if I brought it in on Tuesday (1/28). Dropped it off first thing on Tuesday and by the end of the day it was ready to go. Noise is gone, everything seems good to go and I've got a shiny new diff under there.

I'm normally not a huge fan of dealers and how they tend to try to nickel and dime customers, but god damn did these guys do a grade A job. Will see if the noise ever comes back with the new diff. If it does, definitely going to go the ECGS Bushing route.

 

[arehman11]

My noise has started to come back, although a little different. I think I may just do the ECGS upgrade.

 

[renau001]

Hello all! 1st post here

Just visited my dealer with this issue and they quoted the TSB on the service estimate and are ordering the differential to be replaced under warranty. (41K miles on my 2016 4Runner) no idea how long it will take them to get one.

Has anyone had the chance to look at the difference between diff # 41110-35A91 and the new diff # 41110-35A92 ????

The ECGS solution is very interesting and they claim to have sold over 5500 bushings so far with no issues for the 8". In some photos it does appear that there's an oil galley that allows fluid into the needle bearing, no? With the ECGS bushing no fluid can get in?

Seems like Toyota had a definite bad design issue here and hopefully the new diff is better. We'll see.

I did the ECGS bushing. Worked out great. Perfect since.

 

[Blackdog99]

My related Question is this....yes I can do the ECGS swap to fix that part, BUT what about the fact that the transfer case seems to not disengage entirely in the first place, (which turns the front shaft, which makes the noise that the ECGS part has to fix...) has anyone resolved that also?

Thanks! If this has been answered, I apologize in advance, fairly new here.
TC

 

[97BlackAckCL]

Just throwing my experience in the mix. Had the noise for a little while (maybe the past 1k miles or so?) on my 2018 TRD ORP. Definitely got worse as it got colder up here in the Northeast and shifting to 4Hi fixed it.

Went to my dealer and mentioned the noise, the TSB, and the fact that it goes away in 4HI last Friday (1/24) while I was getting my 20k service. They kept the 4Runner until the early afternoon and called me to come pick it up. They said the master tech drove the 4Runner and definitely heard the noise and said it would fit the TSB. Was told they would order the new front diff but it would take 2.5 weeks for the diff to arrive. I could drive the 4Runner in the meantime.

Come Monday evening (1/27) I got a call that they had a diff and that they could do the warranty work if I brought it in on Tuesday (1/28). Dropped it off first thing on Tuesday and by the end of the day it was ready to go. Noise is gone, everything seems good to go and I've got a shiny new diff under there.

I'm normally not a huge fan of dealers and how they tend to try to nickel and dime customers, but god damn did these guys do a grade A job. Will see if the noise ever comes back with the new diff. If it does, definitely going to go the ECGS Bushing route.

Damn, you're getting a whole new dif? I just got the bushing replaced lol

 

[arehman11]

Damn, you're getting a whole new dif? I just got the bushing replaced lol

They replaced my diff too, the TSB looks to be updated to do that vs the needle bearing.

 

[Jetboy]

I think it depends on model year. Some years call for bearing. Others replace the diff. I don't think there's actually any difference in the diff. I suspect that a certain percentage of bearings resulted in needles or other bits being sent into the diff and then causing catastrophic failure when they were run through the ring/pinion gears. Not sure why they choose certain years to replace though other than that 2015MY and older are now mostly out of the TSB warranty period. So if you're 5 years from in-service date or more, you're on your own. No reason to update the TSB to cover vehicle model years that are not new enough to be covered by the TSB.

 

[Jetboy]

I watched this video and I’m not onboard with this guys analysis based on what he has shown. 50 thousandths is a lot of slop for any bearing and I’m sure there is a reason why the cage isn’t machined.

Haphazardly sticking a solid busing into a location where an oiled bearing used to be IMHO is asking for trouble. Seizure at highways speeds, loss of control etc. I would want to see this guy do some sort of cyclic testing at least on bench before I would consider this mod.

ARB uses the same bushing design. I have my own issues with ARB - but an impregnated brass bushing is not a new idea. Every solid axle toyota I'm aware of uses a similar bushing in the front spindle. It's a common solution that's tried and true. There are approximately 10 similar bushings in the A750 transmission for example.

You could buy the same bushing for probably $2 from an industrial supplier instead of $60 from ECGS. Otherwise it's pretty industry standard to use in this type of application.

 

[RichinRidgewood]

ARB uses the same bushing design. I have my own issues with ARB - but an impregnated brass bushing is not a new idea. Every solid axle toyota I'm aware of uses a similar bushing in the front spindle. It's a common solution that's tried and true. There are approximately 10 similar bushings in the A750 transmission for example.

You could buy the same bushing for probably $2 from an industrial supplier instead of $60 from ECGS. Otherwise it's pretty industry standard to use in this type of application.

If Toyota could pass their durability, fuel economy etc. requirements and save money by replacing the roller bearing with a bushing they would have done it a long time ago.

 

[Jetboy]

If Toyota could pass their durability, fuel economy etc. requirements and save money by replacing the roller bearing with a bushing they would have done it a long time ago.

Kinda hard to explain it no matter how you look at it. We know that it's not very durable the way it is as evidenced by the fact that thousands of them are going bad. So I think durability is out the window as a design requirement - or the idea was durability and in practice it was a failure. However - Mike Swears claims that it never happens. I wish Toyota would send him packing and find someone else to head up the truck division.

Either way - the only justification I can think of is fuel economy as a reason for having the bearing. I'm not sure the difference is measurable though. The only time the shaft is spinning against the bearing is when you're in 2wd, so it's never used under load. I'm guessing the awd models use a bushing. If they use a bearing that we know will essentially never spin, then I have no way to explain it.

By the time you're lifted a few inches where almost all of the issues happen - I think that extra 0.1 mpg is already out the window.

FWIW on the earlier IFS models, the ones with manual hubs had a machined carrier assembly that didn't even have a bushing. Just some oiling grooves in the machined carrier. So the bearing has existed (and been an issue) since literally the first IFS toyota built and they've never re-designed it.

Same year with the ADD is where the needle bearing came in: