Handgun in the 4R

[SigSense]

Anyone else agree that the problem is the people these days? WHY are people my age shooting up a school and then committing suicide?

Lets look at the recent 14 mass shootings shall we. See if YOU can see a pattern. This pattern YOU will not see talked about on national media outlets:

The Denver Post reported that police retrieved a bottle of pills from James Holmes’ residence after the Aurora shooting:

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_22...l-bottles-from

However, the documents are heavily redacted and the exact identity of the drug has been withheld. Why? What about public safety? Why don’t Democrats/Liberals care about FUTURE mass shootings? What about the children?

From Columbine killers Harris and Klebold, to Oregon shooter Kip Kinkel, almost every mass shooter in the world over the last fifteen years has been on some form of psychotropic drug, the inserts of which admit that the medication can cause violence and suicide.

At least fourteen recent school shootings were committed by those taking or withdrawing from psychiatric drugs.

Of these 14, seven were seeing either a psychiatrist (5 of them) or psychologist (2 of them). It is not known whether or not the other half were seeing a psychiatrist, as it has not been published.

1. Huntsville, Alabama – February 5, 2010: 15-year-old Hammad Memon shot and killed another Discover Middle School student Todd Brown. Memon had a history for being treated for ADHD and depression. He was taking the antidepressant Zoloft and “other drugs for the conditions.” He had been seeing a psychiatrist and psychologist.

2. Kauhajoki, Finland – September 23, 2008: 22-year-old culinary student Matti Saari shot and killed 9 students and a teacher, and wounded another student, before killing himself. Saari was taking an SSRI and a benzodiazapine. He was also seeing a psychologist.

3. Dekalb, Illinois – February 14, 2008: 27-year-old Steven Kazmierczak shot and killed five people and wounded 21 others before killing himself in a Northern Illinois University auditorium. According to his girlfriend, he had recently been taking Prozac, Xanax and Ambien. Toxicology results showed that he still had trace amount of Xanax in his system. He had been seeing a psychiatrist.

4. Jokela, Finland – November 7, 2007: 18-year-old Finnish gunman Pekka-Eric Auvinen had been taking antidepressants before he killed eight people and wounded a dozen more at Jokela High School in southern Finland, then committed suicide.

5. Cleveland, Ohio – October 10, 2007: 14-year-old Asa Coon stormed through his school with a gun in each hand, shooting and wounding four before taking his own life. Court records show Coon had been placed on the antidepressant Trazodone.

6. Red Lake, Minnesota – March 2005: 16-year-old Jeff Weise, on Prozac, shot and killed his grandparents, then went to his school on the Red Lake Indian Reservation where he shot dead 7 students and a teacher, and wounded 7 before killing himself.

7. Greenbush, New York – February 2004: 16-year-old Jon Romano strolled into his high school in east Greenbush and opened fire with a shotgun. Special education teacher Michael Bennett was hit in the leg. Romano had been taking “medication for depression”. He had previously seen a psychiatrist.

8. Wahluke, Washington – April 10, 2001: Sixteen-year-old Cory Baadsgaard took a rifle to his high school and held 23 classmates and a teacher hostage. He had been taking the antidepressant Effexor.

9. El Cajon, California – March 22, 2001: 18-year-old Jason Hoffman, on the antidepressants Celexa and Effexor, opened fire on his classmates, wounding three students and two teachers at Granite Hills High School. He had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.

10. Williamsport, Pennsylvania – March 7, 2001: 14-year-old Elizabeth Bush was taking the antidepressant Prozac when she shot at fellow students, wounding one.

11. Conyers, Georgia – May 20, 1999: 15-year-old T.J. Solomon was being treated with the stimulant Ritalin when he opened fire on and wounded six of his classmates.

12. Columbine, Colorado – April 20, 1999: 18-year-old Eric Harris and his accomplice, Dylan Klebold, killed 12 students and a teacher and wounded 26 others before killing themselves. Harris was on the antidepressant Luvox. Klebold’s medical records remain sealed. Both shooters had been in anger-management classes and had undergone counseling. Harris had been seeing a psychiatrist before the shooting.

13. Notus, Idaho – April 16, 1999: 15-year-old Shawn Cooper fired two shotgun rounds in his school, narrowly missing students. He was taking a prescribed SSRI antidepressant and Ritalin.

14. Springfield, Oregon – May 21, 1998: 15-year-old Kip Kinkel murdered his parents and then proceeded to school where he opened fire on students in the cafeteria, killing two and wounding 25. Kinkel had been taking the antidepressant Prozac. Kinkel had been attending “anger control classes” and was under the care of a psychologist.

So, 12 out of 14 mass shootings were acted out by teenagers who were/had/stopped taking some kind of mood-enhancing drug.

First time you heard of that?

 

[hube01]

You (and millions of other Americans) really need to quit repeating the gun-grabber's mantra of the following:

1. Loophole regarding background checks. There is NO such loophole.
2. High capacity magazines causing MORE deaths.
3. Restricting certain weapons.

FACTS:

1. Federal law requires that each new/used weapon bought at a retail establishment results in a background check. This is accomplished 1000's of times a day in our nation. Problem is that criminals don't BUY their guns at retail establishments, they STEAL them or buy them from OTHER criminals. Do you REALLY think that passing a law requiring everyone to have a background check for every sale (private) is going to effect criminals? There are 1000's of laws against murder/rape/incest/child molestation/assault in this nation, so WHY are there murders, rapes, incest etc?

Under federal law:

• It is illegal and punishable by up to 10 years in prison for the following people to receive, possess, or transport any firearm or ammunition:

someone convicted of or under indictment for a felony punishable by more than one year in prison, someone convicted of a misdemeanor punishable by more than two years in prison, a fugitive from justice, an unlawful user of any controlled substance, someone who has been ruled as mentally defective or has been committed to any mental institution, an illegal alien, someone dishonorably discharged from the military, someone who has renounced his or her U.S. citizenship, someone subject to certain restraining orders, or someone convicted of a domestic violence misdemeanor

2. High capacity magazines are available to the military and police, so they are available to the public. The intent of the 2nd Amendment had NOTHING to do with hunting. It was written to prevent TYRANNY. Do some research. Every time you give-in to the anti-gun rhetoric of restrictions on your RIGHT, you give them the platform to restrict.

3. Machine guns suck for shooting people. Did you know that US military CHANGED the M-4 to a three round burst because of this? I have used both automatic and semiautomatic weapons in actual ground combat. A smart marksman (or killer) will carefully aim and minimize the amount of ammo expended. Spraying 100's of rounds is not effective. So the restriction on fully automatic weapons does no good.

If this country is solely and seriously concerned with deaths, then we need to ban the following:

Heart disease: 599,413
Cancer: 567,628
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 137,353
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 128,842
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 118,021 (32, 310 vehicle-related)
Alzheimer's disease: 79,003
Diabetes: 68,705
Influenza and Pneumonia: 53,692
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 48,935
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 36,909

Derived from: FASTSTATS - Leading Causes of Death

We had 32K deaths from car wrecks in 2011. We had 17K suicides by gun, and about 9K murders. Last I checked, 9000 is a LOT less than 32000.


This site will assist those seeking gun facts: Gun Control - Just Facts

I hear you... I understand your point; believe me. However, I do believe that there still are things we can do. Your support data was compelling. As for providing me with the amount of deaths for different for medical conditions compared to deaths relating to guns; it's irrelevant to me. Here is one you can add to the list; there are more deaths caused my natural disasters then any man-made event; globally...

Besides dealing with weapons, I also believe there needs to be a frank conversation about actually enforcing current laws, and dealing with the mentally ill. I'm sorry you and as it appears many others here don't agree with me. Frankly, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

 

[H2O_Doc]

Here are some more data points about murder in the US.

In 2010, about 10,000 people died in auto accidents caused by the crime of drinking and driving. So should we ban cars and trucks?

Although I very much respect the 2nd Amendment as a gun owner, I have to admit you make a very very good point. You're right: alcohol sales/consumption and car use are highly regulated. While neither ensure zero fatalities, many lives a year are surely saved through prudent (and hopefully constitutional) regulation of use and ownership.

Thanks for the food for thought.

 

[mikebontoft]

[MENTION=61211]SigSense[/MENTION] This would be the first time, yes, but it doesn't surprise me. Also no something I've never looked into. The earliest you listed occurred when I was six years old.

Very interesting though.

 

[whodat]

To keep things relevant to this thread, when SHTF, I will be taking supplies to survive, weapons (my pistol), and the 4Runner. Now that this thread is still relevant...

I try not to offend anyone when it comes to my posts, so if I come off as offensive, I apologize in advance.

For those who thinks the 2nd Amendment should be banned, and that Americans shouldn't have the right to keep and bear arms, you are being naive. IMO, the US is the greatest country to live in. I am proud to be an American. But I will never put it past any country, including the US, to fall due to corruption (that's another thread right there). It may or may not be in our lifetime, but it will happen.

Let's look at Vietnam, I was born in South Vietnam, and most of you know of the Vietnam War. Now, in South Vietnam, owning a gun was not really a common thing as it is in the US, that's why I was never exposed to guns. Usually the military and police would have pistols and revolvers.

Like any person, when you are trapped in a corner, you will attack. But attacking with your fist, or farm tools, versus firearms from your enemies, you will lose. Factor into the equation civilians with firearms, you have a far better chance to win. Not many people would be going into a village with armed villagers. Now, if more Vietnamese civilians had pistols/revolvers as common as American civilians had pistols/revolvers, I know the Vietcong and Chinese commies would not win the war.

Thankfully, the US has the 2nd amendment to protect us, the people. When the time comes and chaos breaks loose, the big chief up top will not have your back, the law enforcement will not have your back (they will be going home to protect their family, and rightly so), your friends, your neighbors, even your relatives will not have your back, no one will have your back. Trust me, no one had my parents' back, they had to flee the country to Indonesia because it was not wise to stick around for some commies to tell you what to do, especially when my dad was in the South Vietnamese Army.

So "when" it happens to the US, I really don't wish it upon anyone or any country, but it will happen given humanity's track record, but when it happens you're on your own, and you will be thankful for that pistol, that shotgun, that rifle. When some desperate idiot tries to steal your food, your survival gear, try to rape your wife, or try to rape your daughter, your sister, your mother, you will be thankful for that pistol, that shotgun, that rifle.

I am mostly younger than most of you 5th gen owners, and you guys are very much wiser than me. My only advice is to enjoy life, but also be prepared. Trang Hung Dao is a legend in Vietnam because he rallied the Vietnamese people against the invading Mongols. He was known to say "if the enemy comes, will your cocks' spurs be able to pierce his armor? Will the ruses you use in your games of chance be of use in repulsing him? Will the love of your wives and children be of any use in the Army? Your money would neither suffice to buy the enemy's death, your alcohol to besot him, nor your music to deafen him". People obey the law because they have to, not because they want to. Don't be content with life guys, at any moment your life can change for better or worse, enjoy the better parts of life, but be prepared for the worse, do not take the 2nd Amendment for granted because it will improve your odds tremendously in bad situations. If you think otherwise, then I hope you're never wrong my friend, I sincerely do.

I am guilty of being content with life, like eating too much food and becoming obese according to the BMI, watching too much TV, etc. , but I've been making efforts to do things to enjoy life, and at the same time be prepared. I admire members on here, who maybe not even know it, that prepare for worse case scenarios. 1Engineer is and older guy than me, but he still mountain bikes, builds physical endurance. Antman loves to fish, so he won't go hungry in bad times. Harper and Ducmonsta (and many others on here) are work on cars/trucks for fun, which will benefit them when **** breaks down. Adio3x offroads like crazy, he'll know how to get his vehicle and loved ones to a safezone no matter the obstacle. And a bunch of you guys in this thread knows plenty about firearms, which will benefit you guys in defending yourself. A lot of people never fired a gun, so they will more than likely not know what they are doing and hurt themselves in a SHTF situation. But I'm trying to think ahead and change things up by leading by example to make sure my kids will survive, just like my parents.

Sorry in advance that my reply may not be coherent and I was jumping all over the place, ESL (Engrish Second Language) is my excuse

 

[AnthonyMV]

Name

Clip = watch too much TV
Magazine = correct nomenclature

 

[blackrifle01]

I hear you... I understand your point; believe me. However, I do believe that there still are things we can do. Your support data was compelling. As for providing me with the amount of deaths for different for medical conditions compared to deaths relating to guns; it's irrelevant to me. Here is one you can add to the list; there are more deaths caused my natural disasters then any man-made event; globally...

Besides dealing with weapons, I also believe there needs to be a frank conversation about actually enforcing current laws, and dealing with the mentally ill. I'm sorry you and as it appears many others here don't agree with me. Frankly, we will have to agree to disagree on this.

On what basis do you disagree? What do you disagree with?

You should have sound reasoning for disagreement. Maintaining a position based purely on faith (that has been proven to be incorrect through facts) is not the mark of good decision making. You have to remove your emotion from your position and focus purely on the facts.

 

[blackrifle01]

Although I very much respect the 2nd Amendment as a gun owner, I have to admit you make a very very good point. You're right: alcohol sales/consumption and car use are highly regulated. While neither ensure zero fatalities, many lives a year are surely saved through prudent (and hopefully constitutional) regulation of use and ownership.

Thanks for the food for thought.

What does it mean for regulation when de-regulation coincides with fewer deaths?

 

[Atlanta_man]

Clip = watch too much TV
Magazine = correct nomenclature

Tell it to the guys in the media !
Language changes and it is starting to sound like 'clip' is the new word.

 

[H2O_Doc]

Clip = watch too much TV
Magazine = correct nomenclature

I hear you brother. I'm a biologist and it happens to us all the time. I once heard a reporter use the word "starfish" when we all know the correct nomenclature is "sea star."

Well me and my bio buddies weren't gonna stand for media invertebrate bias. So, we started the anti sea star defamation prevention society (ASS DiPS). It would have been huge too, we're it not for the great pocket protector shortage of '06.

The struggles I have faced [sigh].

 

[rebelbowtie]

Asteroidea would be the name you should use as a biologist no?

 

[H2O_Doc]

What does it mean for regulation when de-regulation coincides with fewer deaths?

I think the mathematical term for this is "correlation."

What it means takes a little more analysis to determine if it is just a coincidence as you say, or if there is a cause and effect which might warrant more deregulation.

On the hopper can't indulge further ; )

 

[Ramzey28]

Start reaching put to your reps....

Ruger - Protect Your Rights

 

[homeyclaus]

To keep things relevant to this thread, when SHTF, I will be taking supplies to survive, weapons (my pistol), and the 4Runner. Now that this thread is still relevant...

I try not to offend anyone when it comes to my posts, so if I come off as offensive, I apologize in advance.

For those who thinks the 2nd Amendment should be banned, and that Americans shouldn't have the right to keep and bear arms, you are being naive. IMO, the US is the greatest country to live in. I am proud to be an American. But I will never put it past any country, including the US, to fall due to corruption (that's another thread right there). It may or may not be in our lifetime, but it will happen.

[snip]

Sorry in advance that my reply may not be coherent and I was jumping all over the place, ESL (Engrish Second Language) is my excuse

Your command of English gives me faith in America. A good command of language shows clear thought.

My next thought - this thread is still going on? Really?

As a competitive shooter, the answer to a first pistol question is: Either a Glock 19 or a CZ-75. One of the two will fit your body geometry better. Everything else is a variant of those two, usually at a higher price. Rent pistols, shoot them, and buy the one you want.

As far as SHTF goes, if you're thinking pistol, you're thinking wrong. In a firefight, or when facing an adversary willing to have one to get what you want, you want rifles, and friends with rifles.

As far as vehicle storage goes - a pistol belongs in a safe or in your immediate control. Nowhere else.

And know how to use your gear. Sometimes it hurts my head when I do carbine courses with police, whom people generally assume to know what they're doing with firearms, do some of the stupidest stuff in terms of safety or effectiveness. I realize firearms are only 1% of their job, but c'mon.

 

[hube01]

On what basis do you disagree? What do you disagree with?

You should have sound reasoning for disagreement. Maintaining a position based purely on faith (that has been proven to be incorrect through facts) is not the mark of good decision making. You have to remove your emotion from your position and focus purely on the facts.

1) To date, the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) has prevented nearly 1.8 million criminals and other prohibited purchasers from buying guns. The law also has a deterrent effect—prohibited purchasers are less likely to try to buy guns when they know comprehensive background check requirements are in place.

Unfortunately, current federal law requires criminal background checks only for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for just 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not “engaged in the business” of selling firearms to sell guns without a license—and without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States change hands without a background check.

Though commonly referred to as the “Gun Show Loophole,” the “private sales” described above include guns sold at gun shows, through classified newspaper ads, the Internet, and between individuals virtually anywhere.

Unfortunately, only six states (CA, CO, IL, NY, OR, RI) require universal background checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Three more states (CT, MD, PA) require background checks on all handgun sales made at gun shows. Seven other states (HI, IA, MA, MI, NJ, NC, NE) require purchasers to obtain a permit and undergo a background check before buying a handgun. Florida allows its counties to regulate gun shows by requiring background checks on all firearms purchases at these events. 33 states have taken no action whatsoever to close the Gun Show Loophole.

Reference:
Gun Show Loophole - Coalition to Stop Gun Violence


2)The Heller Decision: A Radical Departure from Longstanding Second Amendment Case Law

The law regarding the meaning of the Second Amendment changed dramatically in 2008, when the U.S. Supreme Court held for the first time that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual right to possess a firearm in the home for self-defense. In District of Columbia v. Heller, the Court struck down Washington, D.C.’s decades-old ban on handgun possession, and the requirement that firearms in the home be stored unloaded and disassembled or bound by a locking device (a requirement which had no exception for self-defense).

The Supreme Court stated, however, that the Second Amendment should not be understood as conferring a “right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.” The Court identified examples of “presumptively lawful” firearm laws, including laws prohibiting firearm possession by felons and the mentally ill, forbidding firearm possession in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, and imposing conditions on the commercial sale of firearms. The Court noted that this list is not exhaustive, and concluded that the Second Amendment is also consistent with laws banning “dangerous and unusual weapons” not in common use at the time, such as M-16 rifles and other firearms that are most useful in military service. In addition, the Court declared that its analysis should not be read to suggest “the invalidity of laws regulating the storage of firearms to prevent accidents.” Our Heller page has more information about this many difficulties created by this decision.

The ruling in Heller represented a radical departure from the Court’s previous interpretation of the Second Amendment. In United States v. Miller, the Court stated, in a unanimous decision, that the “obvious purpose” of the Second Amendment was to “assure the continuation and render possible the effectiveness of” the state militia. In reliance on Miller, hundreds of lower federal and state appellate courts had rejected Second Amendment challenges to our nation’s gun laws over the last seven decades, making Heller‘s reversal of this interpretation a watershed moment in Second Amendment law.

Reference:

Law Center to Prevent Gun Violence – Gun Law Information Experts

 

[H2O_Doc]

Wow that Heller decision must have been written by one of the leftists on the court; maybe Ginsburg or something. Scalia must have been overruled: he is a strict originalist interpreter of the Constitution that can be counted on to protect our rights in the manner laid down by our Founding Fathers.

 

[M1911]

Although I very much respect the 2nd Amendment as a gun owner, I have to admit you make a very very good point. You're right: alcohol sales/consumption and car use are highly regulated. While neither ensure zero fatalities, many lives a year are surely saved through prudent (and hopefully constitutional) regulation of use and ownership.

Thanks for the food for thought.

There are tens of thousands of gun laws throughout the US, yet there is somehow this fallacy that is almost universally accepted that guns are unregulated. Nothing can be further from the truth.

Then there is the fallacy that increased regulation will reduce gun violence. Gun laws are very lax in VT - you don't need a license to buy a gun nor do you need a license to carry concealed. And yet violence in VT is very low.

In contrast, MA has very strict gun laws. Here you need a license just to buy a gun. You need a particular license to be able buy a handgun and that license can be denied by your police chief for any reason or for no reason at all. MA has an assault weapons ban and a ban on "unsafe" handguns. And yet violent crime in MA is higher than in VT.

There is simply no correlation between gun crime and gun laws and certainly no causative link. This has been shown by academics like John Lott.

Increasing gun control will not reduce crime.

 

[H2O_Doc]

Oh, I thought you were pointing to some sort of correlation or cause and effect. I thought you meant gun control could have an inverse effect on crime, making it not such a good idea Ill take you at you word that no such relationship exists.

Sorry for any confusion.

 

[M1911]

Hube, I suggest that you actually read the Heller decision. Scalia laws out the inescapable fact that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right. Those who argue that it isn't somehow believe that the phrase "the right of the people" in the 2nd Amendment means something different in the 2nd than the very same phrase means in the 1st and 4th Amendments.

The Heller decision clearly lays out how the meaning of the Amendment is clear, whether by analyzing the text directly, or by reviewing the historical context, or by reading the writings of the men who drafted the Bill of Rights.

The "collectivist" view of the 2nd Amendment and the previous SCOTUS decisions that you seem to revere were based on the infamous, racist Dred Scott decision. The early gun control laws were enacted in the South, after the civil war, to keep blacks disarmed and at the mercy of white thugs.

 

[H2O_Doc]

But Heller also says gun control is permissible for certain types of weapons. Wasn't that part of the point in the text you've quoted?

Dawned on me that I am part of the topic drift. More on topic, one of my best 4Runner investments: