How to drive a v6 SE in the Snow and Ice

[morphius909]

Folks,

I am very confused. I've searched the forum so I apologize if I missed the correct thread.

We own a 07 V6 Sport Edition and live in Edmonton. Edmonton = Cold, Snowy and Icy.

So my question, what setting should our 4x4 controls be in?


Diff? 4Hi? 2Hi? So far we've stuck with 2Hi thus far, but today we got some snow and man it was slippery and I fish tailed quite a bit...and the VSC didn't kick in, or should it? I'm quite confused, some help is appreciated!

Thank you very much!!!!!!

 

[keylay31]

If the weather is bad, use 4Hi. If the snow is deep or you want to play around or your stuck, lock the diff. Don't use 4Lo unless you're rock crawling or something along those lines (pulling someone out I guess too). If you want a more emotional description, click on the first link in my signature, the 07 4runner sr5 link.

On a side note, toyota should really make a clearer description of this, because everyone has these questions. It's taken me 2 long blizzard filled winters to be sure of this.

 

[morphius909]

Thanks!

I tried the 4Hi tonight, it was definitely an improvement!

 

[magnumfan]

If its snowy or icey, drive in high range 4wd all the time

just dont lock your center diff

the VSC system is amazing, it will solve almost every problem you encounter.

If you realy get stuck, try the diff lock (which will split power 50/50 front and back) and, you should only need low range if your trying to pull another truck out

j

 

[JungleJim]

So far we've stuck with 2Hi thus far, but today we got some snow and man it was slippery and I fish tailed quite a bit...and the VSC didn't kick in, or should it? [/B]

So does the VSC only work when in 4HI? Or does it also work when in 2 wheel drive too?

 

[magnumfan]

VSC

Folks, the VSC system works all the time, unless you turn it off.

On the 07 and earlier models it could only be turned off while in 4WD mode.

on the 08 model year toyota added a feature so that VSC could be turned off in both 2WD and 4WD.

You can tell if its working easily by doing this: on any 90 degree turn, stomp on the gas, if your rear wheels spin out of control, VSC is not working, but if the engine management and anti spin control kicks in, then VSC is working

The control button is on the dash, to the left of the steering wheel.

I hope that helps. VSC will save your butt most of the time, you only need to turn it off, if you get seriously off road and are playing with your T4R.

I cross a river with mine pretty regularly and I turn VSC off to 'Swim' the car, by allowing all 4 wheels to spin freely

 

[keylay31]

Re: VSC

Folks, the VSC system works all the time, unless you turn it off.

On the 07 and earlier models it could only be turned off while in 4WD mode.

on the 08 model year toyota added a feature so that VSC could be turned off in both 2WD and 4WD.

You can tell if its working easily by doing this: on any 90 degree turn, stomp on the gas, if your rear wheels spin out of control, VSC is not working, but if the engine management and anti spin control kicks in, then VSC is working

The control button is on the dash, to the left of the steering wheel.

I hope that helps. VSC will save your butt most of the time, you only need to turn it off, if you get seriously off road and are playing with your T4R.

I cross a river with mine pretty regularly and I turn VSC off to 'Swim' the car, by allowing all 4 wheels to spin freely

Agreed. Just want to note that the "control button" also locks the diff.

 

[magnumfan]

Dash indicator light pic

So to continue this discussion....for the 2007 and earlier 4th Gen V6 T4R:

There are multiple computer controlled systems in the 4th Gen T4R, that are all linked. They include the ABS, VSC, Engine power control, Diff control and independant computer (via the ABS) control of all 4 wheels (which acts like a pseudo locking differential system for each of the four wheels, front and rear).

And accordingly, there are 4 management icon's that illuminate in the right dial of the instrument panel to tell the driver what is going on.

(It is a very sophisticated computer controlled system that toyota has come up with and the T4R is a very capable off road vehicle with it and in my opinion, it negates the need for LSDs, Lockers, and the like) In my opinion, if you can get the power to the ground from the rubber to the dirt, the T4R will do the rest.

Top to bottom the 4 icons are (see the pic):

1. VSC OFF (Vehicle Stability Control Off)

2. A car icon with skid marks indicated

3. ABS (Anti Lock Brake indicator)

4. VSC Trac (VSC Traction Control)

VSC (on 2007 and earlier 4th Gen T4Rs) can only be turned off in 4WD. On the 2008's it can be turned off in 2WD also (so you can spin your rear tires, if you want to)

VSC is always operational unless you turn it off ( the on/off Switch is the switch with the X on it, to the left of the streering colomn, this also locks the center differential - meaning the center diff will provide a 50/50 power split to the front-reat wheels, which in turn are locked up by the ABS system, providing torque feed back into the open differentials (front and rear), causing each wheel to have power to it - this is very clever stuff by Toyota)

(DONT TURN VSC OFF ON DRY ASPHALT, OR YOU COULD SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR 4WD SYSTEM, ONLY USE IT ON DIRT, SNOW, MUD ETC (AND I wouldnt use it on ice - VSC is better on Ice in my opinion)

My driving experience is that a 2007 or earlier 4th gen T4R will flash the car icon (#2) if wheels spin during normal driving, sometimes the ABS (#3) will also light up if breaking to hard in the wet (and there is pulsing feeling in the break peddal and there is a sound in the car (this is normal operation)

The VSC OFF light will ONLY come on when you put the 2007 or earlier T4R in 4WD and hit the X switch. In my world I only put my T4R in this mode when I want to swim it in creeks or I want to hot dog along dirt/mud roads and spin my wheels.

I only use 4WD Lo to pull my freinds out of the muck, or pull my buddies camper trailer, which we had to do awhile ago, my T4R chained to his Bronco, attached to the camper, pulling the whole thing up a muddy hill. Wish I took a pic.

There are other ICONs that light up

In normal 2WD driving no ICONs should be illumintated

In 4WD Hi a green 4 wheel ICON will illuminate

In 4WD Lo a green 4 wheel ICON + A YELLOW 4LO symbol will illuminate

In 4WD with the CENTER DIFF LOCKED a Green 4WD symbol and a YELLOW VSC OFF will illuminate

If you have RSCA Rollover Side Curtain Airbag on/off switch, this can be activated on or off by holding the switch in for 3 seconds or so.

If you have DAC Down hill Assist Control, this can be activated by clicking on or off. It is a neat tool to control vehicle decent down a slippery hill, it works well, I think it uses the ABS system.

I am very impressed with the capability of my T4R, this is I think my 6th 4WD, I have had serious ones and nice ones, and this is a very capable car. albeit a bit too nice for serious off road fun.

Couldnt get the pic to work. sorry.

 

[orangeblast22]

very informative thread guys! I had these same questions as this is the first time I've owned a 4x4 vehicle. So, its good to see such easy wording to help me understand.


awesome, thanks again!

 

[jacal]

Folks,


Diff? 4Hi? 2Hi? So far we've stuck with 2Hi thus far, but today we got some snow and man it was slippery and I fish tailed quite a bit...and the VSC didn't kick in, or should it? I'm quite confused, some help is appreciated!

Thank you very much!!!!!!

Strange. You should not be able to fishtale very easily, even in 2wd.

Did you fishtale at a very low speed? VSC is not active below 10km/h I think.

In Winnipeg I like to throw it in 4wd hi and leave it pretty much all winter.


J

 

[magnumfan]

Fishtailing with VSC

I agree with JaCal

I can mash my gas pedal into the carpet on a 90 degree turn and the VSC will kick in immediately the rear tire breaks free, the engine management system takes over and the car will accelerate as fast as it can, without wheel spin

no fishtailing in my T4R V6

But, if I put it in 4WD and turn the VSC off (and lock the center diff) and do the same (on dirt, mud, snow etc) I can spin up all 4 wheels and my T4R will become quite a hand full

just my experience

joe

 

[Even Steven]

I don't know for sure how it works on the '08 models with the VSC off switch, but on the '03 - '07 models, even though locking the center diff turns off VSC, it does not turn off ATRAC. Therefore, you can't just cut the wheel and punch the gas to determine if the VSC is off or on because the ATRAC will still kick in regardless.

However, the electronics seem to allow the driver to overrule the ATRAC by really pushing hard on the gas pedal most of the time. My own 4Runner is a strange beast in this regard, because sometimes it lets all four wheels spin pretty hard before ATRAC engages, and other times it seems to kick in much earlier with much less wheelspin.

I would like to investigate the VSC disable switch on the '08 models though, just to see exactly how it works. I suspect that it does not completely disable ATRAC, much like the way the pre-'08 models work with the center diff locked.

 

[magnumfan]

VSC and ATRAC continued....

Hey Steven, interesting reply

I think I have seen what you are talking about.

Last year during winter I got my 4R stuck in snow pretty seriously 3 times and had to be towed out.

I have found with mine (an 06 Limited V6) that if I am in 4WD either Hi or Lo with the VSC system turned on and the center diff turned off, I can climb almost any slippery surface, like a mudy hill, but the 4R will do it very slowly and will control all wheel slip, engine RPM etc so the computer system is controlling everything.

If I turn the VSC off and lock the center diff, I have found that mine will spin all wheels pretty wildly and it will tear its way up the same slope and it may or may not make it, due to the wheel spin. I have noticed that the ATRAC system is obviously applying some amount of negative torque into the wheels (via the ABS and brakes), otherwise if any one wheel spun wildly it would cause the opposite side wheel to stop turning, or at least loose power. Since the V6 has open diffs front and back thats the only way it can work.

This is similar to the Chevy I used to own or my buddys Bronco, we drove both of them off road with one foot on the brake and one on the gas to keep negative brake pressure on the LSD and open front diff - causing positive power to be applied to the wheel. (Its a kind of ass backwards way of making an ill conceived system work against itself to make it do what you need it to do)

Anyway, Ive found with my T4R, that I first try most slopes/rocks etc just in 4WD Hi and if I cannot climb them with VSC engaged, I turn it off and try the old fasioned way, with power and wheel spin

and if that does not work, I use tire chains or my hand winch or hook up to another 4x4 and do it that way

just my 0.2 cents

Joe

 

[magnumfan]

toyota 120

I just picked this up over on toyota 120

http://www.toyota120.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25

follow the links and look at the video clips. very impressive stuff.

Obviously there is a correlation to the engine RPM, consistancy of the throttle postion and other inputs to the ATRAC system working.

For my 0.5 cents though any 4x4 with a wheel in the air, spining 1 of the remaining 3 on the ground and able to pull itself out, is a very good off road rig

excellent job toyota, excellent job!

for anyone reading this who is not familiar with toyota 120, your T4R is a build from that platform, for the late gen vehicles

j

 

[Even Steven]

Re: VSC and ATRAC continued....

If I turn the VSC off and lock the center diff, I have found that mine will spin all wheels pretty wildly and it will tear its way up the same slope and it may or may not make it, due to the wheel spin. I have noticed that the ATRAC system is obviously applying some amount of negative torque into the wheels (via the ABS and brakes), otherwise if any one wheel spun wildly it would cause the opposite side wheel to stop turning, or at least loose power. Since the V6 has open diffs front and back thats the only way it can work.



Joe

Yes, my 4Runner will also spin the wheels with the center diff locked (which disables VSC), but not under all circumstances.

I've played around in the snow several times to get a feel for it, but it seems to works like this:

If I'm sitting in snow in 4wd (hi or lo, doesn't matter) with the center diff locked and punch the gas just hard enough to start spinning the wheels, then the 4Runner will allow wheel spin. Now, to keep moving forward while spinning, I'm obviously going to have to hit the gas pedal increasingly harder. When I get to the point that I'm pretty hard on the gas (maybe 50% throttle opening), I noticed that ATRAC kicks in to limit wheel spin and help transfer power. If I want to overcome ATRAC and spin wildly, I can just hit the gas pedal even harder, and it seems that my right foot overrules the ATRAC, allowing crazy wheelspin.

I like the way the system works because it allows wheelspin under light throttle and heavy throttle, but seems to limit wheelspin under moderately hard throttle. Once I got to understand how the system works, I found it much easier to control and get the results I wanted. I do a lot of snow driving in the winter, so it's important for me to know how my vehicle is going to react at all times.

 

[morphius909]

Okay WOW, What a response!

I think as far as the VSC is concerned, maybe it was at a really slow speed that it didn't kick in, I'll pay more attention next time...

and yes 4HI is a huge improvement in the snow and ice..you can feel power in the front end as well and the vehicle hardly seems to slip as compared to 2Hi.

So to Recap:
2Hi-Normal dry
4Hi-Snowy, Icey Conditions
4Lo-Serirous 4x4 at very low speeds

 

[josh220]

I have an 07 V8 Sport Edition, so mine is always in 4Hi. Does this mean that if i'm in snow, that I never need to put it into 4Lo unless I get into very deep conditions?

What about the Diff lock? That's the button to the left of the steering column right? Would I ever have use for it?

I already read through all of the threads I could find on it, but everyone seems to be talking about 4runners with a 2Hi option, and then the 08 4runners. Any information would be appreciated.

 

[magnumfan]

V8 4R is always in 4Hi unless you select 4Lo

I have an 07 V8 Sport Edition, so mine is always in 4Hi. Does this mean that if i'm in snow, that I never need to put it into 4Lo unless I get into very deep conditions?

What about the Diff lock? That's the button to the left of the steering column right? Would I ever have use for it?

I already read through all of the threads I could find on it, but everyone seems to be talking about 4runners with a 2Hi option, and then the 08 4runners. Any information would be appreciated.

Hey Josh. Yes in the V8 you are always in 4Hi, unless you select 4Lo.(which is why I bought the V6, so I could use 2WD and get better gas mileage) And yes you would only ever need 4Lo if you were having trouble pulling something, climbing something or where ever you need massive torque and slow speed. The Lo range gear system is essentially a torque converter, it takes the engine RPM and converts it to Low speed and very high torque. Essentially turning your V8 T4R into a farm tractor.

The diff lock, is something else, that system should always be left off, unless you need to equally split power front/back. Locking the center diff also shuts off the VSC system (which manages engine RPM in the event wheels are spinning) You would engage your diff lock for example, if you wanted to cross a stream and needed to swim your vehicle, by allowing all 4 wheels to spin freely. the car will kind of pull itself thru the water. But even with the car in 4Lo and with the center diff locked (VSC off) the ATRAC system is working and is managing what is going on with the torque and traction at each wheel. This is a very beautiful thing. Trust me.

You should never engage Diff Lock (turn off the VSC) system on dry hard asphalt in either 4Hi or 4Lo (but especialy 4Lo) if you drive very far at all, you will damage the 4WD system in your car.

I think the best way to think about the standard tools available in the T4R is like, you have a driving problem to solve, and Toyota has given you a kit of tools to solve the problem, its up to you how you solve it.

In my opinion the T4R and the other Toyota's have one of the best 4X4 systems and off road options available in the market today, without spending a fortune on diff upgrades etc


all the best

Joe

 

[josh220]

Thanks Joe.

Since V8's are always in 4Hi, I would never really need to do anything with controls for driving in mild snow huh?

It seems like the Diff Lock button is useless to me because I am not a hardcore offroader.

 

[Even Steven]

Re: V8 4R is always in 4Hi unless you select 4Lo

... You would engage your diff lock for example, if you wanted to cross a stream and needed to swim your vehicle, by allowing all 4 wheels to spin freely. the car will kind of pull itself thru the water....



Are you serious, or just kidding? You're not suggesting that the 4Runner will float and the spinning wheels will propel the vehicle through water, are you??


You should never engage Diff Lock (turn off the VSC) system on dry hard asphalt in either 4Hi or 4Lo (but especialy 4Lo) if you drive very far at all, you will damage the 4WD system in your car.



You can do it without damaging anything if you drive straight ahead. For example, if you rarely use your 4wd in low or with the center diff locked, it is perfectly fine to drive straight across a big, empty parking lot in 4wd low with the center diff locked. This will allow you to keep everything lubed properly and you will not hurt anything in the process. Just don't try to turn on dry pavement with everything locked up.