Installing W/M Injection - need ideas
- Thread starter Speedy
- Start date
Speedy
Member
Well, decided to pull the negative battery terminal just for good measure and do a free air calibration on my LC-1 wideband as well. It had been a while.
I've only done some preliminary testing, but what I figure is to just dial in a 11.9 - 12.0 AFR for starters with just the meth injection. So far it seems whatever nozzle I have in there will be able to achieve it. I said it was a 3 but maybe a 5. I'll double check tonight. Not a lot of details in the box with the Coolingmist kit, just a bunch of parts in bags and a decal LOL. The controller is progressive and right now I have it set to start at 4.5psi and max out at 8psi. My plan is to just go out on the highway and do some WOT pulls with O/D off and just dial back the max point until I either max it out, or the AFR hits the target. If I max it out and don't hit my target, I can either put some fuel through with the URD 7th injector kit, or order a larger nozzle.
I had started to get some odd stumbling at times under WOT prior to installing the W/M kit. I thought bad gas and figured not to sweat it since the W/M was going on. However, it's still doing it even with the kit installed. Gotta figure that one out. No CELs or anything, but will hook up OBDII scanner tonight to check for anything just to be sure. I'll check plugs and coils as well.
Could still be bad gas as well. I've only gone through a half tank of the last I put in. I'll use some good Shell 93 on the next fill up to eliminate that.
What AFR are you guys shooting for on your W/M setups? With as much meth as some have said they go through, I'm kinda surprised at mine. I've been through half a tank of gas so far and only about an inch or so of washer fluid from the stock reservoir.
I've only done some preliminary testing, but what I figure is to just dial in a 11.9 - 12.0 AFR for starters with just the meth injection. So far it seems whatever nozzle I have in there will be able to achieve it. I said it was a 3 but maybe a 5. I'll double check tonight. Not a lot of details in the box with the Coolingmist kit, just a bunch of parts in bags and a decal LOL. The controller is progressive and right now I have it set to start at 4.5psi and max out at 8psi. My plan is to just go out on the highway and do some WOT pulls with O/D off and just dial back the max point until I either max it out, or the AFR hits the target. If I max it out and don't hit my target, I can either put some fuel through with the URD 7th injector kit, or order a larger nozzle.
I had started to get some odd stumbling at times under WOT prior to installing the W/M kit. I thought bad gas and figured not to sweat it since the W/M was going on. However, it's still doing it even with the kit installed. Gotta figure that one out. No CELs or anything, but will hook up OBDII scanner tonight to check for anything just to be sure. I'll check plugs and coils as well.
Could still be bad gas as well. I've only gone through a half tank of the last I put in. I'll use some good Shell 93 on the next fill up to eliminate that.
What AFR are you guys shooting for on your W/M setups? With as much meth as some have said they go through, I'm kinda surprised at mine. I've been through half a tank of gas so far and only about an inch or so of washer fluid from the stock reservoir.
gamefreakgc
Elite Member
Since the water/meth isn't fully tunable (the injector is hard to control) My AFR's jump around a lot. You won't go through nearly as much fluid as I do since you're also injecting gasoline. My pump turns on around 3 PSI and maxes at 8, but tops out at 10-11 PSI because of the smaller pulley. Plus the washer fluid tank is very small, whereas injecting gasoline you've got 18+ gallons in the back lol!
12.0-12.5 is what Snow Performance told me to shoot for, as well as many other members on here so you are right on track. I had it coming on too soon at first and would get "combustion quench" and AFR's would drop in the 10.0's. At WOT at high RPM's I'm actually more like 13.0-13.5, the largest nozzle they have is STILL not enough, but I'm not about to run two nozzles. That's why I go through so much fluid.
Since you have the 7th, you can get the meth injecting where you want it (you might want it lower than 4.5 PSI, since your max PSI on the charger is 8-9 PSI) and then use the tuning software to adjust the 7th injector. Snow Performance said to have it come on at 33% of the max boost, and the full setting should be at 75% of the max. This has been pretty much spot on for me, despite trying other combinations. The only scenario you'll find that's tricky is low RPM boost, as if you ease on the accelerator slowly at highway speeds. I cannot seem to nail this one down, it'll hit 3-4 PSI with very little throttle but the pump turns on and that's where I get the very low AFR's.
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Speedy
Member
So here's the strange thing about my 4Runner. I've now zeroed out the fuel map on the 7th injector. So it's not spraying anything. I left the timing adjustments in place for safety until I get the W/M dialed in.
With just this single nozzle I'm able to hit 11.2 AFR with JUST W/M. Seems odd based on your experience. I actually had to turn the max setting UP to lean it back out which I honestly didn't expect. I'm using just plain o'l -20 washer fluid as well, the Blue Streak brand.
Last night when I was playing with it, I had it WOT and started to adjust the max psi setting on the controller to lean it back closer to 12.0, so I basically turned UP the max boost point where it sprays 100% to manipulate the AFR. Less W/M should = leaner AFR and that did hold true. Just surprised based on what you and others have reported they see.
gamefreakgc
Elite Member
Well, my educated guess of it being a 3 GPH nozzle might be wrong, you might be flowing more than that. The other thing is that I'm running a smaller pulley then you are and my charger builds boost VERY quickly. It's a happy 4Runner!
Just because what you are experiencing is different that what I am, doesn't mean it is wrong. It's also possible that I'm actually injecting more than what was advertised, as in the numbers are not accurate.
I highly recommend the 2.1" pulley though, with as much extra fuel you've got on there it's begging for more boost! There's even a 2.0" pulley if you are very adventurous, but I've heard that it could overspin the charger and damage bearings.
Speedy
Member
Yep, makes sense. 2.1 pulley is on the short list once I get the W/M sorted. I've got fuel to spare having both it and the 7th.
Gotta get this stumble figured out.
Speedy
Member
Got the stumble figured out. *Denso IK22 plugs are flat worn out after 45,000 miles of use. *I hooked up OBDII and saw cylinder misfires for several cylinders stored. *Pulled plugs, and they're shot. *Regapped them back down to .032" to get by and it runs like a top. *They had worn to over .040" and some the tip is worn badly. *Reading, this seems like a very common problem in the 5VZ-FE.
Ordered NGK*2667 BKR7EIX IX Iridium Plugs to replace and will install Saturday. *Lots of confusion around what plugs to use and what gap to run. *These are two steps colder than stock, the ones that match up to the IK22, AND come pre-gapped to .031" -*https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9352. *I'm gonna try these instead of the IK22 plugs this go around.
Did my first full RPM pulls on the way to work this morning on the water meth injection, and it's AWESOME. *Should have done it years ago. *Now to start dialing it in.
Ordered NGK*2667 BKR7EIX IX Iridium Plugs to replace and will install Saturday. *Lots of confusion around what plugs to use and what gap to run. *These are two steps colder than stock, the ones that match up to the IK22, AND come pre-gapped to .031" -*https://www.ngk.com/product.aspx?zpid=9352. *I'm gonna try these instead of the IK22 plugs this go around.
Did my first full RPM pulls on the way to work this morning on the water meth injection, and it's AWESOME. *Should have done it years ago. *Now to start dialing it in.
lhsoulrebel
New member
Devils own sells a one-way check valve, if mounted close to the pump will maintain fluid in the line. They recommend it for that just that purpose. (Keeping fluid in the line so as to avoid delivery delay).
I've been running -40 washer fluid from Canada, and throwing in a quart of methyl hydrate (also from Canada) .methyl hydrate is methanol. FYI. I live close to Canadian border, and my father in law gets it for me. If you can find a race track close to you, they may stock methanol. Also when running washer fluid make sure it's as pure water/meth as possible. Check spec sheets or msds, and shake the bottle to make sure it doesn't foam.
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Speedy
Member
-20 washer fluid. From MSDS sheets appears to be 35-40% methanol.
No check valve needed on mine as it uses the solenoid. Does the same thing basically, just electronically. Fluid does stay in the lines as I left a window in the loom at the nozzle so I can visually see it.
Agreed on the plane jane washer fluid. The check is to shake it and if the bubbles immediately disappear it's good to go.
Speedy
Member
New plugs going in today, and I was wrong earlier on the AFR. The fact that the plugs were worn and causing a misfire was affecting AFR, obviously it wasn't burning all the fuel so made it seem richer.
I regapped the crap plugs to get me by until the new plugs showed up and now with no more misfires the AFR does lean out past 12.5 above 4,000 RPM.
I cross checked and my current nozzle is a CM3 from Coolingmist, which is presumably a 3GPH. I figure I'd just get a 7GPH nozzle since my system is progressive and tunable, that way I'm covered no matter what.
I went to get a nozzle from Devil's own, I liked that theirs included a small filter and they are $22.95. However shipping is almost $12! Tried to call them and all three of their phone menu options said "mail box full", not re-assuring from a customer service perspective.
So finally, my question - Where are you guys buying your nozzles?
I regapped the crap plugs to get me by until the new plugs showed up and now with no more misfires the AFR does lean out past 12.5 above 4,000 RPM.
I cross checked and my current nozzle is a CM3 from Coolingmist, which is presumably a 3GPH. I figure I'd just get a 7GPH nozzle since my system is progressive and tunable, that way I'm covered no matter what.
I went to get a nozzle from Devil's own, I liked that theirs included a small filter and they are $22.95. However shipping is almost $12! Tried to call them and all three of their phone menu options said "mail box full", not re-assuring from a customer service perspective.
So finally, my question - Where are you guys buying your nozzles?
White Stripe
New member
I run a devils own #3 nozzle at 300psi. I get my nozzles off of eBay. Yes they rape u on shipping.
Robb235
Senior Member
McMaster-Carr
https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/123/2114/=164b9jx
These have a filter as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
https://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/123/2114/=164b9jx
These have a filter as well.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Speedy
Member
Lots of testing and tuning this weekend. My primary goal was to regain the timing being pulled due to heat, and increased consistency between WOT passes. Both have been accomplished. However.......
In this cold dense air I'm running lean up top. I've maxed out my fuel system with the 7th injector at 5500RPM. The AFR wants to creep past 12.3 - 12.5. In warmer air this hasn't been an issue. Logs show I'm making 10psi with the meth spraying, so perhaps sealing better at the rotors. This is on a 2.2 pulley. I definitely need a larger nozzle and I think these online nozzle calculators are way off.
So far cheapest solution I've found for water/meth "solution" is a gallon of -20 washer fluid and a 12oz bottle of Heet from Wallyworld. The two together cost $3.16. I'm going to continue to search for straight methanol locally so I can mix my own, but so far no dice. I'll have to stock up on this as spring approaches as I'm sure the -20 fluid is seasonal.
Thanks for the tip, didn't think of ebay. Found the DO 7GPH and snagged it $5 shipping. Should be here Friday.
That's a great price. The threads look reversed from what we'd need though according to the pics?
In this cold dense air I'm running lean up top. I've maxed out my fuel system with the 7th injector at 5500RPM. The AFR wants to creep past 12.3 - 12.5. In warmer air this hasn't been an issue. Logs show I'm making 10psi with the meth spraying, so perhaps sealing better at the rotors. This is on a 2.2 pulley. I definitely need a larger nozzle and I think these online nozzle calculators are way off.
So far cheapest solution I've found for water/meth "solution" is a gallon of -20 washer fluid and a 12oz bottle of Heet from Wallyworld. The two together cost $3.16. I'm going to continue to search for straight methanol locally so I can mix my own, but so far no dice. I'll have to stock up on this as spring approaches as I'm sure the -20 fluid is seasonal.
Thanks for the tip, didn't think of ebay. Found the DO 7GPH and snagged it $5 shipping. Should be here Friday.
That's a great price. The threads look reversed from what we'd need though according to the pics?
White Stripe
New member
If you are maxing out your 7th injector on a 5vz something is not right. I am running my 7th injector at like 20% of max on the top end with 10psi of boost. Their is a vital adjustment in the programming that fools the o2 so the stock ecm isn't trying to bring things back to 14.7:1. I can't remember what its called at the moment. I mentioned it in the supercharger thread a few months back.
Speedy
Member
I'm on the stock fuel pump. Did you upgrade yours? I wouldn't expect the injector itself to be maxed out by any means.
What I'm seeing is I've got a cell in the software that let's say is 9.5psi of boost and 5500RPM. I've got it set to something around 2.2 for the injector MAP. The AFR isn't what I'd expect and will creep above 12.5 at that setting. I could be missing something, but current theory is that the pump is the likely bottle neck.
If you're still on the stock pump as well, maybe I'm just being tentative with the fueling and need to give it the beans at like 2.8 or 3.0 in that cell.
White Stripe
New member
Oh OK. I didn't know u were on the stock pump. I have a 190lph high pressure pump. Why haven't u installed a Pump? I would try giving it the beans, but their may not be enough fuel volume from the stock pump.
Speedy
Member
This truck has seemed to be kind of an odd ball when it comes to fueling. For whatever reason when I did my initial tuning (10 years ago) the stock fuel pump handled duties just fine and I was able to maintain a 11.8 AFR no problemo. Maybe I need to run some injector cleaner through it, the stock pump is getting tired, or the colder air is the reason for leaner results today. Thanks for confirming my theory that I'm running out of pump now though.
Initial tuning 10 years ago was done in 90+ degree heat, and I just don't spend a lot of time at WOT 5500RPM so for 10 years I've just driven it this way. Now that I've started leaning on it as part of this meth injection tuning, and the fact that these tests have been in mid 30s temps with cold dense air, have likely shown the issue.
I even had the 190LPH pump ready to go in when I installed the URD 7th injector system, but sold it after I didn't need it.
I've got a Walbro GSS342 255LPH pump sitting on my work bench I could drop in there, but might be too much?
If I don't get the AFR sorted with the larger 7GPH meth nozzle, I'll get a pump and drop it in.
I do want to go to a 2.1 pulley now that I have the meth injection, so I may need it regardless. I'll report back how I make out.
Speedy
Member
Well, 7GPH nozzle was the ticket. It wouldn't fit in my Coolingmist nozzle holder with the nice nozzle filter installed, so I had to remove that. Might replace the nozzle holder with the DO version to support the filter down the road.
With 1 gallon of blue -20 washer fluid and 12oz of HEET, I had to dial back the flow rate to prevent being too rich. I did some table napkin math and figured 5GPH was the actual right number, and adjusted my start and stop points to insure I maxed out at 5GPH. This meant I start at 4.5psi and had it max out at 12psi, even though my max boost is 9.5 to 10. Hope that makes sense.
This got me right in the sweet spot of AFR that my truck seems to like which is right around 12 - 12.5.
Ya'lls may be similar but mine tends to get unhappy if too rich and not only do I lose power from the over fuel, but also it pulls timing as well for whatever reason. If I keep it close to 12.0 I get max timing and it's VERY lively.
I may be able to eliminate the bottle of Heet and back down my max injection to 10psi. I'll try that on the next tank full. Would save $1.50 per refill.
I've not tried the 2.1 pulley to see what that does. Need to get that ordered. Checked some logs and seeing 18-19 degrees of timing at max RPM vs. 14 I had before. Makes a huge difference.
Will do some more testing/logging this weekend. The truck seems to adjust and give more the more I drive it.
With 1 gallon of blue -20 washer fluid and 12oz of HEET, I had to dial back the flow rate to prevent being too rich. I did some table napkin math and figured 5GPH was the actual right number, and adjusted my start and stop points to insure I maxed out at 5GPH. This meant I start at 4.5psi and had it max out at 12psi, even though my max boost is 9.5 to 10. Hope that makes sense.
This got me right in the sweet spot of AFR that my truck seems to like which is right around 12 - 12.5.
Ya'lls may be similar but mine tends to get unhappy if too rich and not only do I lose power from the over fuel, but also it pulls timing as well for whatever reason. If I keep it close to 12.0 I get max timing and it's VERY lively.
I may be able to eliminate the bottle of Heet and back down my max injection to 10psi. I'll try that on the next tank full. Would save $1.50 per refill.
I've not tried the 2.1 pulley to see what that does. Need to get that ordered. Checked some logs and seeing 18-19 degrees of timing at max RPM vs. 14 I had before. Makes a huge difference.
Will do some more testing/logging this weekend. The truck seems to adjust and give more the more I drive it.
