Just Rode in a Wrangler Unlimited again...

[Vulgarian]

hemi, dk...

Meet long dong silver.

lol!

 

[Land_Shark]

Sure, on the road, but the JK offroad....Each has strengths and weaknesses. Not a JK guy myself, but its a pretty amazing offroad platform that will often walk right past the 5th gen. There are just way too many of them and I still can't stomach owning a Chrysler product.

^ I agree. As a daily driver, I'll take the 4Runner, but my brother's JK Unlimited Sport is just better for technical trails off road....that and it costs about 1/3 of the price to modify them.

 

[SupaSupra]

For me, I just don't care for how the new Jeeps look. I prefer a TE's styling over a JK.

 

[Vulgarian]

^ I agree. As a daily driver, I'll take the 4Runner, but my brother's JK Unlimited Sport is just better for technical trails off road....that and it costs about 1/3 of the price to modify them.

So true...Jeep has the aftermarket industry sewn up.

 

[BenSD]

I've been borrowing a lifted TJ (used as a tow vehicle for a motorhome) while my 4runner is in the shop getting some body work done. When picking it up last week, I ran into an issue where the accelerator was sticking (not fun), and last time I borrowed it (2012), I encountered death wobble while on a very tall, curvy and narrow freeway transition ramp. What are the odds that the two times I borrow it, something very bad happens? I'm looking forward to getting my 4Runner back.

 

[Jetboy]

I always struggle to understand why no one else has even made an attempt at this market. 180k per year sales. The mustang and camaro don't add up to the total jeep sales and yet lots of competitors come into that market.

 

[wfo9]

I always struggle to understand why no one else has even made an attempt at this market. 180k per year sales. The mustang and camaro don't add up to the total jeep sales and yet lots of competitors come into that market.

I think it will happen again. They are just slow to react. Hummer was the obvious play and if GM would have kept them around.. they would be blowing jeep out of the water at this point. Both Ford and GM will be back in the mix soon (I think). It's just hard to compete in that space without creating a new brand.

Surprisingly, gas prices play a huge role in this market.

If Toyota had any market prowess... They would start up a land cruiser brand, bring back the FJ and play the US market like a fiddle for a huge profit. They just don't have it in them though. Sort of like asking a 75 year old man to produce hip hop... They simply don't have that talent or mindset to pull it off. The components and knowledge is obviously there, just not willing or motivated in that way.

 

[VH3SURF]

In Oct '15 I was on the Big Island in Hawaii and opted for a Jeep Unlimited for my rental. I will admit being partial to Toyota. They keep clothed and fed, but the Jeep wasn't bad. It wasn't great but it wasn't bad either. I think the Jeep guys lose it on us 4Runner guys but at the end of the day to me it is reliability. I don't care what trail you can conquer if there a is a slight chance your are walking out rather than driving out. I'll take a Toyota any day of the week.

 

[CO-Cygnus]

you should go to an AEV dealer and ride around in a hemi powered JK - that will really make you realize how limited your 4Runner is.

I've never heard of AEV, let me just check them ou... Jesus, you can get the 6.4?

Well.

I'm sure the 4R supercharger will be out any day now, any day.

 

[Jetboy]

I've never heard of AEV, let me just check them ou... Jesus, you can get the 6.4?

Well.

I'm sure the 4R supercharger will be out any day now, any day.

I used to live down the street from them in Missoula. Lots of nice builds. Just remember that it's ICON money for one. I'd go for an ICON 4 door FJ40 with my own dollars. Both are excellent vehicles for sure.

 

[Vulgarian]

I think it will happen again. They are just slow to react. Hummer was the obvious play and if GM would have kept them around.. they would be blowing jeep out of the water at this point. Both Ford and GM will be back in the mix soon (I think). It's just hard to compete in that space without creating a new brand.

Surprisingly, gas prices play a huge role in this market.

If Toyota had any market prowess... They would start up a land cruiser brand, bring back the FJ and play the US market like a fiddle for a huge profit. They just don't have it in them though. Sort of like asking a 75 year old man to produce hip hop... They simply don't have that talent or mindset to pull it off. The components and knowledge is obviously there, just not willing or motivated in that way.

Outside of the gas price issue, I think it comes down to sex appeal and capturing the imagination of the consumer. And to your point, jeep has marketed that better. When I was on the market I found a ton of modded JKU's for sale at dealers that made my eyes glaze over with desire.

 

[High_Country]

...that and it costs about 1/3 of the price to modify them.

This got me to wondering, is it really drastically cheaper to mod a jeep or is it that there is so much more cheap CRAP to modify a jeep with. Quality parts are still expensive (AEV, ARB, etc) regardless of platform. Sure, there's likely some volume pricing breaks and all, but it's probably the availability cheap stuff (that I personally wouldn't use anyways) that make us think it's cheaper to mod a jeep.
Just thinking out loud here...

 

[wfo9]

This got me to wondering, is it really drastically cheaper to mod a jeep or is it that there is so much more cheap CRAP to modify a jeep with. Quality parts are still expensive (AEV, ARB, etc) regardless of platform. Sure, there's likely some volume pricing breaks and all, but it's probably the availability cheap stuff (that I personally wouldn't use anyways) that make us think it's cheaper to mod a jeep.
Just thinking out loud here...

Not a jeep guy, but I think it sort of depends on the level... A JK rubicon can be built to be very capable on 35s without spending a bunch. Similar to a typical 5th gen build, but the bumpers... are cheap.

However, if you start with a base model or want to go big.... It's not cheap at all. Most serious JKs are running around with 20k worth of new axles under them. 80k builds are sort of the norm, but those are crazy capable compared to any 5th gen. Stuff like bumpers and skids are cheap... But those parts honestly don't matter all that much (they are more for looks and protection). The cost comes in with the control arms, axles, drive shafts, differentials....That is where the big money is at and most people don't even go there with modern Toyotas. It's apples and oranges.

 

[Land_Shark]

Not a jeep guy, but I think it sort of depends on the level... A JK rubicon can be built to be very capable on 35s without spending a bunch. Similar to a typical 5th gen build, but the bumpers... are cheap.

However, if you start with a base model or want to go big.... It's not cheap at all. Most serious JKs are running around with 20k worth of new axles under them. 80k builds are sort of the norm, but those are crazy capable compared to any 5th gen. Stuff like bumpers and skids are cheap... But those parts honestly don't matter all that much (they are more for looks and protection). The cost comes in with the control arms, axles, drive shafts, differentials....That is where the big money is at and most people don't even go there with modern Toyotas. It's apples and oranges.

This...plus most of the mods are all prepackaged and stupid-easy to bolt on. Things like a CB setup. Mine is a Frankenstein version composed of the best bits....my brother bought a complete package that a drunk frat boy could have bolted on while never setting down his bud/miller lite.

That's the other MAJOR difference in the jeep aftermarket. You can purchase fully designed and proven systems that are very easy to install. (Which I envy!)

 

[swva]

I think it will happen again. They are just slow to react. Hummer was the obvious play and if GM would have kept them around.. they would be blowing jeep out of the water at this point. Both Ford and GM will be back in the mix soon (I think). It's just hard to compete in that space without creating a new brand.

Surprisingly, gas prices play a huge role in this market.

If Toyota had any market prowess... They would start up a land cruiser brand, bring back the FJ and play the US market like a fiddle for a huge profit. They just don't have it in them though. Sort of like asking a 75 year old man to produce hip hop... They simply don't have that talent or mindset to pull it off. The components and knowledge is obviously there, just not willing or motivated in that way.

I've thought about this before. Toyota could make a better Wrangler than Jeep (Chrysler) does. They should make something like the old FJ40 but modernized, with an actual good safety rating unlike the Wrangler. Toyota could go back to two live axles with the option of a manual transmission. Maybe have a base version and one with more of the upgrades and sound deadening. Heck, they could just bring the 70 series land cruiser over here to the U.S. and it would start cutting into Wrangler sales.
I think the Wrangler is very good for what it is, an off-road vehicle. But probably 95% never see anything but pavement. They are fairly reliable, probably the only reliable Jeep that's made now, but I still don't think they are in the same boat as any Toyota when it comes to reliability.
My wife has owned 3 Wranglers (still currently owns one) so I've had the opportunity to drive one plenty. I'm always glad to get back into my Trail 4Runner.

 

[jwkilgore]

I always struggle to understand why no one else has even made an attempt at this market. 180k per year sales. The mustang and camaro don't add up to the total jeep sales and yet lots of competitors come into that market.

They have. The Hummer, the FJ, the XTerra, and even arguably the 4Runner. There are rumors of a new Ford Bronco in the pipeline.

People just go for the Jeeps for a variety of reasons and the other options fail. The Jeeps are either cheaper, easier to upgrade (you can roll on massive tires with only minor upgrades), or just have the sex appeal missing from the other options.

Even with me... if I wanted a serious off-road beast of a rock crawler I'd buy an old Wrangler and fix it up for a fraction of the cost to totally convert over my 4Runner. If I had more money I'd try to dig up an old Landcruiser 40 series like the one my brother used to own... those things are tanks.

But what I really want right now is a comfortable daily driver that I will slowly upgrade to an expedition-level rig. Mostly maintained roads, but I'll be able to cross most reasonable washouts, ruts, and minor rock climbs. So I bought the 4Runner instead of the Wrangler.


I still say that if Toyota had really tried to make the recent FJ Cruiser like the old FJ40 LandCruiser (or current Wrangler) it would have taken off. SFA suspension capable of rolling on 37's with a lift, removeable hard top, front and rear lockers... it would have given the Wrangler a serious run. But they went for sales to the mall crawler crowd first and off-roaders second.

 

[FordyceCreek]

Other big problems with a Jeep are simply nowhere enough room for a family on the trail for a week, and serious weaknesses in even the Rubicon drive train leading to the need for a ridiculous number of upgrades for basic 35-37 inch tires. Add to that the drive ability and reliability....The Rubicon is a bargain for some of the goodies you get, but to survive the big stuff it needs a lot of help in axles and front end. 4 Runner may cost more to get to the same level despite this, but you will have a vehicle you can live with.

 

[LandCruiser]

I want to hear a reasonable explanation (I guess CAFE/CARB may fit the bill) as to why Toyota killed the FJ Cruiser--especially that 4Runner sales are not dropping off.

Or was it just that the prices of a TT FJ butted up against that of a TE T4R?

 

[adrtoy]

I want to hear a reasonable explanation (I guess CAFE/CARB may fit the bill) as to why Toyota killed the FJ Cruiser--especially that 4Runner sales are not dropping off.

Or was it just that the prices of a TT FJ butted up against that of a TE T4R?

Butt ugly, no real rear doors, terrible visibility, and it was butt ugly.
We looked at them when we were buying our JKU but the rear door thing in itself was a deal breaker.

 

[jrandom]

I want to hear a reasonable explanation (I guess CAFE/CARB may fit the bill) as to why Toyota killed the FJ Cruiser--especially that 4Runner sales are not dropping off.

Or was it just that the prices of a TT FJ butted up against that of a TE T4R?

Side note, would rather like to see them go back to the old 40 series body style