KDSS(TE) vs Non KDSS (SR5)

[Stifler]

Was my answer not obvious? How about you? Do you have KDSS on any of your vehicles?

well as a matter of fact, although not mine, we do have a 2013 KDSS equiped vehicle in the family..... so again, like 1E I have REAL experience with both..... and you have.... well the internet and a crap ton of worthless posts on T4R.org....:nod:

 

[Thai]

well as a matter of fact, although not mine, we do have a 2013 KDSS equiped vehicle in the family..... so again, like 1E I have REAL experience with both..... and you have.... well the internet and a crap ton of worthless posts on T4R.org....:nod:

And if you can look at my off-roading pics (hopefully, link still works) in my signature, then you can see that i have PLENTY of experience OFF-ROADING with KDSS-equipped vehicles! In fact, one of the guys i off-road with is TEXGX...you can PM him. Thanks. Oh no, i am a fan of KDSS not just from reading about it...it is from off-road 1st hand experience! :rockon:

I don't preach what i have not done or experienced.

 

[Stifler]

And if you can look at my off-roading pics (hopefully, link still works) in my signature, then you can see that i have PLENTY of experience OFF-ROADING with KDSS-equipped vehicles! In fact, one of the guys i off-road with is TEXGX...you can PM him. Thanks. Oh no, i am a fan of KDSS not just from reading about it...it is from off-road 1st hand experience! :rockon:

yes I have seen you "off roading" links.... doesnt negate the fact that you have convinced yourself that KDSS is magical.... or that you pride yourself with being the resident douchebag.....

 

[Thai]

[MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION]

This is funny. [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] accused me of being all theory. Ok. I gave relevant information, technical, videos, pics, etc.. But, still, some of you accused me of being all about details and theory.

What does harper7 provide? ALL THEORY. Has harper7 shown one picture of a TE KDSS vs. SR5/Limited? Nope. He has plenty of chances...but nothing. Yet, he accuses me talking about other vehicles. All he talks about is the bumpstops. All theory. Has he shown any evidence to say that all 4runners have the same effective suspension travel off-road?? Nope. Nada. Zero.

Harper7 tries his best to discredit everything that shows KDSS is better than no KDSS off-road...see his last post as an example. BUT, has he shown anything of even vaguely relevant that KDSS does not provide more articulation off-road?? Nope. Nada. Zero.

Remember, harper7 is the one that craps on KDSS off-road...it is NOT me that craps on SR5/Limited. The burden of proof is actually on him. Has he done it? Nope. Not a single damn thing.

Hey, i hope that with all his off-road experience, he can at least get two stock 4runners (TE vs SR5/Ltd) to do the same trail...i am ok with 2 evenly modded 4runners...what the heck, i feel generous!

 

[Thai]

that you pride yourself with being the resident douchebag.....

Yet, who is named Stifler or at least pride himself with that name? :bolt:

 

[Intruder]

doesnt negate the fact that you have convinced yourself that KDSS is magical

Uh, it's magical unicorn puking rainbows. Please try to get it right or I'll have to post endless replies about how wrong you are even though I have no personal experience with this specific magical unicorn puking rainbows application.

 

[Stifler]

Yet, who is named Stifler or at least pride himself with that name? :bolt:

at least you are consistent huh?

 

[Thai]

[MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION], so, if i were to remove the sway bar in the front of any 4runner, there is absolutely no change in effective travel off-road? None whatsoever?

How about the rear axle?

I will limit myself to these two simple questions for harper7.

According to EDMUNDS and GX460 (current model), the KDSS system in it is very similar to what you described.

 

[Thai]

This pic is to show the front compression of Lexus GX460, which i assume is very similar to 4runner TE with KDSS. (KDSS is standard on GX.)

According to Lexus:

Front: Independent, double-wishbone with coil springs, gas-pressurized shock absorbers and stabilizer bar

I don't believe that there is anything electronic up front just from looking at Lexus website.

 

[Antman]

 

[phillyd2]

[MENTION=66316] You're kinda self-centered, aren't you?

 

[Sundog7121]

Gosh, this is interesting and enlightening. When I got my TE with KDSS, I had never heard of it, and just understood that when the left side goes down the right side does too. Or something like that. Now It's MUCH clearer.

:rockon: :rockon:

 

[ATL4R]

All theory? Harper7 went out of his way to get his own RTI score as well as watch the TE RTI score. He brought that information back to us and shared his opinions on his findings.

You have quoted marketing material from a Billion dollar car company as well as articles by magazines that spend a few days driving these things. Toyota provides these mags with info on the vehicles... I remember researching the 4Runner when i was buying and so many of the write-ups were almost identical.

BTW, I've never seen anyone bash KDSS. Some of us think the Torsen center is more important. Some of us don't want to give up ground clearance. Some of us would rather put money toward lift/tires than spend $1750 on KDSS. Some of us don't want to worry about the possibilty of a high dollar option going bad in the future and needing repairs.

Truthfully, i've enjoyed the back and forth between everyone on this topic. It has brought up a lot of good points. Maybe some TEs, SR5s, and Limiteds can get together and make some comparisons in the future.

[MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION]

This is funny. [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] accused me of being all theory. Ok. I gave relevant information, technical, videos, pics, etc.. But, still, some of you accused me of being all about details and theory.

What does harper7 provide? ALL THEORY. Has harper7 shown one picture of a TE KDSS vs. SR5/Limited? Nope. He has plenty of chances...but nothing. Yet, he accuses me talking about other vehicles. All he talks about is the bumpstops. All theory. Has he shown any evidence to say that all 4runners have the same effective suspension travel off-road?? Nope. Nada. Zero.

Harper7 tries his best to discredit everything that shows KDSS is better than no KDSS off-road...see his last post as an example. BUT, has he shown anything of even vaguely relevant that KDSS does not provide more articulation off-road?? Nope. Nada. Zero.

Remember, harper7 is the one that craps on KDSS off-road...it is NOT me that craps on SR5/Limited. The burden of proof is actually on him. Has he done it? Nope. Not a single damn thing.

Hey, i hope that with all his off-road experience, he can at least get two stock 4runners (TE vs SR5/Ltd) to do the same trail...i am ok with 2 evenly modded 4runners...what the heck, i feel generous!

 

[eddiebx]

[MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] it appears that you like to post the same picture of the ramp tests which prove your point, but automatically dismiss [MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION] picture of his ramp test, just because it does not illustrate your point as well as you had hoped...so can we please just agree that ramp tests are probably not the most accurate for real world discussions? (I honestly don't care if you really agree or not, but please for the sake of moving forward and my sanity, let's just pretend we agree okay? )

Sooo...in hopes of keeping this more relevant to what the majority of people here will be doing with their 4runners, let me try to engage you in a discussion of a more realistic example of what I think most of us would encounter off-pavement.

First and foremost, I am a complete newbie when it comes to all things off-road, and the below example is literally the first time I've ever hit a forest trail in a 4x4 vehicle.

As you can see below, on a not so wild fire road, I've managed to complete flex my 100% stock KDSS suspension to what I think appears to be just about its limits. Please note my driver's rear wheel is actually off the ground by a wee bit. Granted, maybe I didn't pick the proper line, approached this at the proper angle or whatever, but that's not the point here.

My question to you is...in this situation, how has KDSS helped me anymore than an SR5/LE if I'm still lifting one of my rear tires? Are you going to tell me well...KDSS helped me to have my tire only lift off the ground by a mere 1-2" instead of more?

Maybe I just don't understand the physics or techniques...but to me, it doesn't matter if the tire is in the air by an inch or a foot, a tire in the air is just that, a tire in the air; and well that tire in the air is certainly one tire that I can't count on helping me to drive forward right?

This is why even an amateur like me doesn't whole heartily buy into all the mythical off-road benefits that you so persistently claim is there. I don't doubt you that there's some benefits, but I also don't agree that it's as hyped up as you make it seem. Yes, I know, I know every little bit counts, I think we all get that by now.

Now if you ask me, I'd probably benefit a lot more from some longer travel more than easier articulation...I mean yeah you can articulate easily, but what about once you reached the end of the articulation limit :doh:

 

[eddiebx]

well as a matter of fact, although not mine, we do have a 2013 KDSS equiped vehicle in the family..... so again, like 1E I have REAL experience with both..... and you have.... well the internet and a crap ton of worthless posts on T4R.org....:nod:

Can we please all just chip in and buy you a ramp so you can take some comparison pictures back to back and shut this debate down once and for all? :cheers:

 

[Stifler]

Can we please all just chip in and buy you a ramp so you can take some comparison pictures back to back and shut this debate down once and for all? :cheers:

if you buy it.... I will flex!:cheers: I think the wife would beat my ass if she walked out and saw her GX on an RTI lol

 

[crunchcity]

It would interesting to see the differences between the Trail, GX460, LX570/Landcruiser KDSS systems.

Someone needs to crawl under them all with a camera. :beer:

 

[Thai]

All theory? Harper7 went out of his way to get his own RTI score as well as watch the TE RTI score. He brought that information back to us and shared his opinions on his findings.

You have quoted marketing material from a Billion dollar car company as well as articles by magazines that spend a few days driving these things. Toyota provides these mags with info on the vehicles... I remember researching the 4Runner when i was buying and so many of the write-ups were almost identical.

BTW, I've never seen anyone bash KDSS. Some of us think the Torsen center is more important. Some of us don't want to give up ground clearance. Some of us would rather put money toward lift/tires than spend $1750 on KDSS. Some of us don't want to worry about the possibilty of a high dollar option going bad in the future and needing repairs.

Harper7 RTI pic is not relevant because there wasn't a stock SR5 or Limited to run the same RTI ramp.

I am not going over what I have posted. You can read. What market material are you talking about? You mean the video that shows different vehicles over the same terrain and seeing the difference KDSS makes?? Or do you mean FourWheeler who tests RTI ramp on everything and then takes it out on a trail?? Or Edmunds true suspension experts crawling around underneath a GX460 (same KDSS system as what harper7 described on TE) and giving a very detailed explanation of how KDSS works?? Sorry, I don't see what you're getting at.

Torsen is great...never said otherwise. But, for some, it may be of lesser importance. Nowadays, you have a soup of electronic nannies (VSC, ATRAC, EBD, etc.) to protect 2wd drivers on the road. What little you lose in ground clearance can be made up by upsizing tires, picking a better path, etc.. But, the stability of KDSS both on-road and off-road more than offset these "issues." You can spend lots of money on lifts...but will it provide the perfect compromise on-road and off-road...while at the same time being reliable and durable??? The amount of money you guys pour into a suspension to fix all ills of the world can probably get you a nice Land Cruiser, new or used. Why not get a Jeep Wrangler instead?

High dollar option going bad? Frankly, I would worry more about XREAS on Limited going bad before KDSS ever will! I would worry more about your tranny going bad (seen a few stories of failure on this forum). I would worry about center diff not engaging quickly. There are many things to worry about on any car...KDSS isn't one of them IMHO. I have not seen a KDSS failure in a long time (if ever)...I am sure that they are out there tho.

 

[Thai]

so can we please just agree that ramp tests are probably not the most accurate for real world discussions? (I honestly don't care if you really agree or not, but please for the sake of moving forward and my sanity, let's just pretend we agree okay? )

As you can see below, on a not so wild fire road, I've managed to complete flex my 100% stock KDSS suspension to what I think appears to be just about its limits.

My question to you is...in this situation, how has KDSS helped me anymore than an SR5/LE if I'm still lifting one of my rear tires? Are you going to tell me well...KDSS helped me to have my tire only lift off the ground by a mere 1-2" instead of more?

Maybe I just don't understand the physics or techniques...but to me, it doesn't matter if the tire is in the air by an inch or a foot, a tire in the air is just that, a tire in the air; and well that tire in the air is certainly one tire that I can't count on helping me to drive forward right?

This is why even an amateur like me doesn't whole heartily buy into all the mythical off-road benefits that you so persistently claim is there. I don't doubt you that there's some benefits,

Now if you ask me, I'd probably benefit a lot more from some longer travel more than easier articulation...I mean yeah you can articulate easily, but what about once you reached the end of the articulation limit :doh:

[MENTION=85512]eddiebx[/MENTION]

The reason why I posted the latest RTI ramp was because harper7 ASKED if there was a picture of a stuffed front end to compare to his RTI pic of a TE. READ HIS post again and see why I posted that. I hope that you understand instead of blatantly question me.

The rest of your question is a good one. You're right...once a tire is lifted, it is lifted. Where KDSS comes in is that it also provides more compression and droop at all 4 corners. See your front tire? It is compressed. An SR5 driver's front tire likely will not compress as much. Of course, in your situation, KDSS or not, you're gonna lift a tire. See video posted earlier comparing the suspension systems. The idea here is that KDSS provides more stability as you slowly creep/crawl over this uneven cross-axled situation. With a normal non-KDSS suspension, since you have less compression and droop, your car would head-toss more...aka more weight shifting side to side, front to rear. KDSS does NOT prevent your wheel from lifting all the time. That's nonsense to think that.

KDSS provides more effective travel off-road...is it a lot? Significant that you remain in contact with the dirt more than without it. Significant that you have less head-toss than without it.

Do we all agree that KDSS effectively disconnects the sway bars? (See Edmunds post again if not.) What did I show earlier? A disco front sway bar improves compression by 3". Does that mean that you can go thru the Rubicon trail without ever lifting a tire? No.

By your logic, we all should have Toyota Highlander suspension (IFS & IRS). In that picture of yours, I am sure that a Highlander will lift tires too. So, what is the point of solid axle and long travel IFS?

You don't doubt that there are SOME benefits. OK, we're on the same page! What are we arguing about then???

I have NEVER claimed that KDSS is a long-arm substitute!! NEVER. I have never claimed that KDSS replaces a lift. NEVER. EVER. NEVER. Feel free to look over all my posts to date.

However, my point that you guys keep on diluting and covering up is...and thus, necessitating me repeating...KDSS provides SOME benefits OFF-ROAD (over a non-KDSS 4runner), while providing a superb ride/handling ON-ROAD. You get your cake AND eat it too.

Can a long-arm suspension do that perfect combination? No...unless you throw tons and tons of money at it. Can a simple space lift do that? No...as KCcarguy pointed out earlier. Can a $2000 lift do that perfect combination? No. The problem with most aftermarket lifts is that it kills your on-road handling. Yeah, it's great off-road, but you suffer on-road. (Again, disclaimer...I am sure that you can throw lots of money to get the perfect compromise...but, we're talking LOTS!) And if you put in thicker sway bars with stiffer shocks/springs to help with the boat-like handling of SR5, then you lose off-road suspension flexibility. KDSS avoids these common pitfalls! It gives you good on-road ride without taking away from off-road flex...in fact, it gives you "some" more flex off-road than without KDSS.

I hope that you understand my point (finally). BTW, for a guy who is asking me to move on, you sure like to pull me back in! :driving:

 

[Thai]

[MENTION=85512]eddiebx[/MENTION]

Compare your pictures to this:

Look at the compression of the front tire...compare that to yours. Is it significant? Your call. Frankly, i rather have the system for its duality.

Thanks to Ramans4runner for above pic.