KDSS(TE) vs Non KDSS (SR5)
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1engineer
Moderator
Until you get a stock SR5 and stock TE on the same ramp then you're just...
Don't even have to put them on a ramp...just jack them up from the same point behind the front wheel til another tire comes off the ground. Measure it. Just make sure parameters are the same. Same tires, pressure, weight and no mods.
Intruder
New member
Oh I know, but without an actual "official" RTI number you know a certain someone will never leave it alone.
1engineer
Moderator
Yeah, the only reason I bought a 4Runner TE was the fact it could go up a ramp on level ground a certain distance before it lifted a wheel.
eddiebx
New member
My mistake, I completely missed one of the points I was trying to make between my pictures and the ramp test pictures Harper7 posted. Both are 100% stock KDSS suspensions, and yet one manages to compress the front tire substantially higher up into the wheel well than the other. Is either picture lying? Definitely not.
So if you ask me it really seems like looking solely at a ramp test does not paint a complete picture of what any one vehicle is capable off. This also revovles right back to my initial statement about how it's probably hard to quantitatively measure something so dynamic with such a static test.
That's why I was jokingly teasing you to just "move along", since I don't think any of us are ever going to get anywhere arguing about just a ramp
Also, I don't believe I've been trying to dilute anything or cover anything up (at least that was cerrtainly not my intent); I'm only trying to portray it as best and fair as I can, based on how I understand it.
eddiebx
New member
The only reason I bought a TE was because I liked the black trim better than the chrome trim on the SR5/LE. Then afterwards I found this forum and found out about off-roading, true story. I guess fortunately for me, I prefer black trim over chrome trim?
Thai
Elite Member
[MENTION=85512]eddiebx[/MENTION]
That is why RTI measurements should be done by the same people, under the same condition, using the same tools. Otherwise, it is useless. I thought that this point was obvious...i stand corrected.
But, eddie, do you understand my point now?
You don't doubt that there are SOME benefits. What are we arguing about then??? Why are you not on my side?!
I have NEVER claimed that KDSS is a long-arm substitute!! NEVER. I have never claimed that KDSS replaces a lift. NEVER. EVER. NEVER.
I had to re-post the above paragraph just to re-emphasize to folks that are kinda thick.
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] is kind of crafty guy...his forum mannerism is much different than thru PM. It tells a lot about the guy....) :bored:
What has harper7 shown to support his claim that KDSS provides no benefit off-road? Has he shown any real world data? Feel free to show me...i might have missed it.
No one has answered me. [MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION] [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] have remained silent.
Does disconnecting the front sway bar on a 4runner improve effective wheel travel (compression and droop)? Yes or no?
Does disconnecting the rear sway bar on a 4runner improve effective wheel travel (compression and droop)? Yes or no?
If no, then why is it that there are plenty of folks who swears by it? Placebo effect?
Simple questions. Thanks.
That is why RTI measurements should be done by the same people, under the same condition, using the same tools. Otherwise, it is useless. I thought that this point was obvious...i stand corrected.
But, eddie, do you understand my point now?
You don't doubt that there are SOME benefits. What are we arguing about then??? Why are you not on my side?!
I have NEVER claimed that KDSS is a long-arm substitute!! NEVER. I have never claimed that KDSS replaces a lift. NEVER. EVER. NEVER.
I had to re-post the above paragraph just to re-emphasize to folks that are kinda thick.
[MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] is kind of crafty guy...his forum mannerism is much different than thru PM. It tells a lot about the guy....) :bored:
What has harper7 shown to support his claim that KDSS provides no benefit off-road? Has he shown any real world data? Feel free to show me...i might have missed it.
No one has answered me. [MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION] [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] have remained silent.
Does disconnecting the front sway bar on a 4runner improve effective wheel travel (compression and droop)? Yes or no?
Does disconnecting the rear sway bar on a 4runner improve effective wheel travel (compression and droop)? Yes or no?
If no, then why is it that there are plenty of folks who swears by it? Placebo effect?
Simple questions. Thanks.
1engineer
Moderator
Nobody wants to answer you because you won't listen. It's either Thai's way or no way. You do not listen, you only talk. Me crafty? Yeah right. I don't talk about a lot of stuff on an open forum that I do in pm's. I would assume you do too. Now, to answer your questions for the last time:
Disconnecting the sway bar will not increase travel by itself. If you do disconnect the sway bar though it will require less force to compress or extend the suspension. Get it? Disconnecting the sway bar does nothing unless a force is exerted. The more force (or less) exerted on the tire and wheel means the more the spring will compress, but the only gains made by the disconnect is the force required to put the sway bar in torsion. Let me make up some numbers: Let's say it takes 100 lbf to twist the sway bar. Let's say it takes 500 lbf to compress the spring. 500+100=600 total. Remove the sway bar and you take it back to 500. Follow me? Now for the fun part: In the real world, momentum and acceleration comes into play. RTI scores go out the window. If an SR5 hits something at a speed of 5mph it could get the same spring compression of a TE going 2mph. I just made these numbers up but you have to see my point. Real world applications.
My whole argument from the start is that the TE and SR5 have the same LIMITS, meaning if you compress the suspension enough both vehicles will bottom out at the same point of compression because the geometry is the same.
Thai, that has been my argument all along. I think KDSS is good even when I had an SR5. My point has always been, to use [MENTION=66300]Intruder[/MENTION]'s word's, it's not a unicorn puking rainbows good. It is great on roads for me but offroad? Meh. Now for you it might be great off road as well. Not me though. I watched a lot of videos before I purchased the TE and it delivers as promised. Again, in my little real world application, I can't see or feel the difference. Lot's of marketing hype though.
Thai
Elite Member
Note the use of EFFECTIVE wheel travel. Secondly, not sure why we are only talking about your type of off-roading? One sentence you say "delivered as promise" and next sentence is marketing hype. Which is it? If you have so little experience with it, then how do you even know? I probably have more trail time with KDSS than you! Thanks for the information.
Intruder
New member
THIS IS EXACTLY CORRECT. I'm not an engineer but I've taken enough physics classes to know that's how it works. If Thai doesn't want to believe it that's fine because - to paraphrase Neil deGrasse Tyson - the great thing about science is that you don't have to believe in it for it to work.
Like I mentioned way back, KDSS is neat but it is far from the holy grail of off roading technologies.
Intruder
New member
Do you really want to go down that road? I may not be "famous" but I'm willing to bet I've got more trail miles over more difficult terrain in a KDSS-equipped 4Runner than you. So if that's your differentiator for who's right, then I win.
Thai
Elite Member
That was meant for 1engineer.... :toilet3:
Thai
Elite Member
You guys are right. [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION], it's interesting...you tell me that i am all theory...that was a fabulously useless explanation...i am embarrass that you even wrote it. Thanks though.
But, you know what...you guys are right! I know nothing about these things. Removing sway bars off-road really does nothing special. I understand now. For all practical purposes, removing sways do nothing to wheel travel/flex in the REAL WORLD. I understand that now. Damn bumpstops mean everything! See, i can learn.
These quotes are from people like you guys (hardcore folks) in 4runners (and 1 Hilus, 1 GX): (Non-edited except were you see [])
" did the same thing on my hilux....removing the swaybar, there was no benefit to down travel but gained heaps of uptravel, so much so that I had to extend the bump stop slightly to avoid the tyre hitting the inner guards.
the main benefit is that offroad no swaybar, the IFS works more independantly of each side and feels alot better too."
"Same experiences here. Put it back on for a couple days, but then I pulled it off again because I didn't like it."
"When I took mine off, I noticed a difference in traction even on just moderate trails. It does feel like there is more droop up front."
"My GX handles poorly with the front disconnected at anything above 25mph just like my '99 did. I prefer the bar on there for the street."
"I removed my front swaybar over the weekend and realized that I should have done it a long time ago. The front flex is awesome with the swaybar off."
"I would not feel safe at higher speeds or think of rolling on the highway with it off. That is just my experience with it off and i have stock suspension still. On the trail it felt 10 times smother to me. On the road it felt a little floaty but my stock suspension seems to soft to begin with."
"I tested my 4Runner with the swaybar removed. I can fully droop one front wheel while the other side is completely tucked. Before removing the swaybar the rear driver side wheel would have easily lifted off the ground at the same spot."
Sorry, i could add more, but gotta run.
Have a good night.
But, you know what...you guys are right! I know nothing about these things. Removing sway bars off-road really does nothing special. I understand now. For all practical purposes, removing sways do nothing to wheel travel/flex in the REAL WORLD. I understand that now. Damn bumpstops mean everything!
See, i can learn.These quotes are from people like you guys (hardcore folks) in 4runners (and 1 Hilus, 1 GX): (Non-edited except were you see [])
" did the same thing on my hilux....removing the swaybar, there was no benefit to down travel but gained heaps of uptravel, so much so that I had to extend the bump stop slightly to avoid the tyre hitting the inner guards.
the main benefit is that offroad no swaybar, the IFS works more independantly of each side and feels alot better too."
"Same experiences here. Put it back on for a couple days, but then I pulled it off again because I didn't like it."
"When I took mine off, I noticed a difference in traction even on just moderate trails. It does feel like there is more droop up front."
"My GX handles poorly with the front disconnected at anything above 25mph just like my '99 did. I prefer the bar on there for the street."
"I removed my front swaybar over the weekend and realized that I should have done it a long time ago. The front flex is awesome with the swaybar off."
"I would not feel safe at higher speeds or think of rolling on the highway with it off. That is just my experience with it off and i have stock suspension still. On the trail it felt 10 times smother to me. On the road it felt a little floaty but my stock suspension seems to soft to begin with."
"I tested my 4Runner with the swaybar removed. I can fully droop one front wheel while the other side is completely tucked. Before removing the swaybar the rear driver side wheel would have easily lifted off the ground at the same spot."
Sorry, i could add more, but gotta run.
Have a good night.
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harper7
Senior Member
That's some good flex and is more up travel(stuff) in the front then a stock SR5 or LE would get with the front sway bar on. Not sure in the rear as stock SR5's and LE's look to be about the same or a little more but most likely the stock shock travel is the limiting factor. I never tested mine stock.[MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] it appears that you like to post the same picture of the ramp tests which prove your point, but automatically dismiss [MENTION=8206]harper7[/MENTION] picture of his ramp test, just because it does not illustrate your point as well as you had hoped...so can we please just agree that ramp tests are probably not the most accurate for real world discussions? (I honestly don't care if you really agree or not, but please for the sake of moving forward and my sanity, let's just pretend we agree okay?
Sooo...in hopes of keeping this more relevant to what the majority of people here will be doing with their 4runners, let me try to engage you in a discussion of a more realistic example of what I think most of us would encounter off-pavement.
First and foremost, I am a complete newbie when it comes to all things off-road, and the below example is literally the first time I've ever hit a forest trail in a 4x4 vehicle.
As you can see below, on a not so wild fire road, I've managed to complete flex my 100% stock KDSS suspension to what I think appears to be just about its limits. Please note my driver's rear wheel is actually off the ground by a wee bit. Granted, maybe I didn't pick the proper line, approached this at the proper angle or whatever, but that's not the point here.
My question to you is...in this situation, how has KDSS helped me anymore than an SR5/LE if I'm still lifting one of my rear tires? Are you going to tell me well...KDSS helped me to have my tire only lift off the ground by a mere 1-2" instead of more?
Maybe I just don't understand the physics or techniques...but to me, it doesn't matter if the tire is in the air by an inch or a foot, a tire in the air is just that, a tire in the air; and well that tire in the air is certainly one tire that I can't count on helping me to drive forward right?
This is why even an amateur like me doesn't whole heartily buy into all the mythical off-road benefits that you so persistently claim is there. I don't doubt you that there's some benefits, but I also don't agree that it's as hyped up as you make it seem. Yes, I know, I know every little bit counts, I think we all get that by now.
Now if you ask me, I'd probably benefit a lot more from some longer travel more than easier articulation...I mean yeah you can articulate easily, but what about once you reached the end of the articulation limit :doh:
I have my front sway bar off with Icons long travel shocks and TC UCA'S to get the advantage of the longer travel.My piggyback rear shock travel is my down limiting factor now until I send them in to Icon this fall to have them rebuilt to get the even longer travel ones to go with the rest of parts that make up Metaltechs long travel suspension that I already have the rear LCA's for. Will just need the springs and longer brake lines then. Here's some flex shots of the MT long travel rear set up on WarnerD9's TE so you can see how much flex is possible after he removed his KDSS bar or bars...... .Toyota 4Runner Forum - Largest 4Runner Forum - WarnerD9's Album: Hole in The Rock Trip - April 2013
Here's some shots of my flex on Twister at the Jamboree.No sway bar on in front but the rear is on with aftermarket Skyjacker sway bar links so the stock link doesn't limit it. The rear shock travel is my limiting factor for down travel and it's against the bump stop on the other side.
In the front ,the other side still had some weight on it and not against the bump stop yet as when fully stuffed and against the stop and when descending/climbing some off camber rock shelves it was hitting the top inside of the fender well and making a rubbing noise at full stuff. You can see the tell tale rub marks in the 5th pic.
Where it was hitting on the top inside of the front fender well liner albeit I also have taller 34" tires.
On Clydes Ravine .....thanks to Andrew for the pic.
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Thai
Elite Member
What is everyone arguing with me about then? :lmao:
Harper7, I respect you...honestly, I do. I have no beef with you. You know your stuff. I apologize for being "difficult" with you. My contention all along is about a stock vehicle...nothing more.
For others and one last time...KDSS is not a long arm nor lift substitute. It gives you good off-road flex (more than without KDSS) when you need it most while maintaining good ride/handling on-road. Before KDSS, this was not possible for a stock vehicle (or even a lightly modded one).
As for [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION], well, so much for your theory, right?!
My contention all along with you is that you did not understand it yet talk so much about it (theory) without really ever seeing it in action! Unfortunately, some folks think that you know KDSS and listened to you. Remind me of lemmings somehow. Sadly, despite your engineering background, your theory was wrong when apply to the real world. Ironically, you accused me of that! And I am not even sure you understand it now.... :toilet3: Maybe you should take your TE out on a real trail next time and have some fun! I saw KDSS in action in real life...and I like what I saw...maybe you will too once you experience it.
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adam2562
New member
Has anyone thought.. why would they design it to flex to a bump stop/whatever is stopping it... that is there for worst case scenario of over extending.. they wouldn't build it with no spacing at full flex. There could be an inch left to the bumps top at full flex on an sr5 (limited has xreas which I think makes articulation worse) and a trail might have a 1/4" spacing left till the bumpstop with kdss. Leaving the kdss equipped trail with 3/4" more travel (numbers are mythical but used to prove a point that I have not tested. but I agree with [MENTION=2]Thai[/MENTION] ) .. someone care to go under go and test out my theory at full flex on an sr5 and trail? That's all
Yogi56
New member
Just buy the TE for faster resale in most cases....like 2X vs 4X....there's always someone out there who thinks they "need" the TE's capability over the SR5 or LE but will never come close to using it (like me and will buy your TE before the other guys non TE
I drove all 3 versions when buying mine, all were good but the TE just felt more planted with less sway and a very controlled ride, especially compared to my 10' Xterra Off Road. The limited was 2nd choice also but the 20" wheels vs 17" transmitted more of the road through like small potholes, freeway dots etc.
and will buy your TE before the other guys non TE I drove all 3 versions when buying mine, all were good but the TE just felt more planted with less sway and a very controlled ride, especially compared to my 10' Xterra Off Road. The limited was 2nd choice also but the 20" wheels vs 17" transmitted more of the road through like small potholes, freeway dots etc.
