Kudos To Toyota For Giving the V8 the Boot!

[ToyTech99]

Oh, forgot to mention one more thing-- Any good dyno operator can perform what is called a "coast down test", which will give a near exact measurement of drivetrain losses. If you ever want to test a vehicle to see the difference in losses beteen 2wd and 4wd, you'll just need a 4wd dyno and someone who knows how to to a coast down test.

My local dyno shop used to have to disconnect two axles when testing AWD performance cars. Now they have an AWD dyno, so no need to do that anymore. But we have measured drivetrain losses in both configurations and the typical AWD car loses less than 1% with in AWD configuration. It's actually such a small number that it's practically not measurable, due to repeatability between runs. But for the most part, the number is statistically far less than 1%. Even though a 4wd 4Runner is a completely different animal, I'd bet the losses are also very much insignificant from 2wd to 4wd.

 

[ToyTech99]

Do you happen to have the specs for the new 4.0L V6 and where it achieves it's peak torque and HP now that Toyota has beefed it up? I would reason to guess that now that they have added some ponies, that the peak power has moved north in the RPM range. That is not based on science or engineering, just my own personal hunch. I'll be curious to find out when more info is released on the new V6.

No, I don't have that info yet. I'm curious about it too. If the peak HP is higher in the rev range, then it's likely that the peak torque rating went up higher in the rev range too. HP & TQ always meet at 5252 RPM, right?

 

[GMZ]

We're not discussing driveline losses. We're discussing your point that a V6 'loses it's punch' when switched from 2wd to 4wd.

Let me tell you a little bit about dynos. Sure, they can give you an estimate of the HP/TQ curves in any given vehicle. And sure there are drivetrain losses. The typical drivetrain loss for an average RWD vehicle with a manual trans is about 15%. This number is slightly higher for similar vehicles with automatics transmisssions, usually around 18%. But you have to understand that the drivetrain losses are throughout the entire drivetrain, from the flexplate and torque converter (in an automatic) all the way to the tires on the dyno's rollers. If you want to talk 4wd versus 2wd, then fine. There's no doubt that there will be more driveline loss when a vehicle is switched from 2wd to 4wd. But that loss will be completely and totally insignificant. And even the most sensitive driver in the world will not be able to notice such a small amount of drivetrain loss out on the road.

Anyway, we don't need a dyno to prove that. Anyone with a V6 4Runner can prove it easily. All you have to do is bring a V6 4Runner to a dragstrip and make a few passes in 2wd and a few in 4wd. There will be no difference in performance. The vehicle will run the same times either way. This is especially true because the 4Runner will have no problem with traction whether it is in 2wd or 4wd because it simply doesn't make enough power to light up the tires, therefore there's no advantage or disadvantage to running it in 4wd.

Now if you still think you can feel a loss of power when you switch a V6 4Runner into 4wd, there's nothing else I can say to you except that it's all in your head.

Were not discussing driveline losses? We sure arent discussing the price of tea in China. When you put it in 4HI you are adding another 1/3 of a driveline. Im not saying that the engine puts out any less, but that it takes more skinny pedal in 4HI. That, to me is indicative of increased driveline loss.

I know about dynos, and driveline losses. Ive spent more time than I care to remember on dynos tuning cramped little cars that I cared about more than life itself. An engine is turning 2 more wheels, 2 diffs, and another (albeit smaller) shaft and youre telling me that is insignificant? All youve really said is that you estimate an 18% loss. Thats hardly conclusive or news to me so my offer still stands.

Racing from a dig is hardly precise enough to measure something like this, especially at a drag strip, in any case I would think that in 4HI you might get a better 60ft anyway.

 

[ToyTech99]

Do you happen to have the specs for the new 4.0L V6 and where it achieves it's peak torque and HP now that Toyota has beefed it up? I would reason to guess that now that they have added some ponies, that the peak power has moved north in the RPM range. That is not based on science or engineering, just my own personal hunch. I'll be curious to find out when more info is released on the new V6.

I was thinking about this and we can actually calculate it given the published numbers. It may not be dead-on, but it will be very close.

I have to look up the numbers, but I think the new V6 only gained something like 7 peak lb-ft of torque, but it also gained about what, about 30 peak HP? I can give you a pretty good estimate of where exactly this peak power is in the rev range. Keep in mind that HP is always calculated from torque and RPM.

 

[ToyTech99]

Were not discussing driveline losses? We sure arent discussing the price of tea in China. When you put it in 4HI you are adding another 1/3 of a driveline. Im not saying that the engine puts out any less, but that it takes more skinny pedal in 4HI. That, to me is indicative of increased driveline loss.

I know about dynos, and driveline losses. Ive spent more time than I care to remember on dynos tuning cramped little cars that I cared about more than life itself. An engine is turning 2 more wheels, 2 diffs, and another (albeit smaller) shaft and youre telling me that is insignificant? All youve really said is that you estimate an 18% loss. Thats hardly conclusive or news to me so my offer still stands.

Racing from a dig is hardly precise enough to measure something like this, especially at a drag strip, in any case I would think that in 4HI you might get a better 60ft anyway.

No, we're discussing your statement that a V6 4Runner "loses it's punch" when switched into 4wd. That's the problem here. Any driveline losses will be too insignificant for anyone to actually feel on the road. You must be superhuman to even have noticed. Or more than likely you just think you can feel the difference.

BTW, you're not adding 1/3 of a drivetrain. I'm not sure how you even came up with that figure. And the 18% I mentioned was simply an average and universally accepted figure for the average drivetrain loss of an automatic transmission vehicle run on a dyno. Of course it will vary from car to car. The only way to get a true HP/TQ reading is to put the engine on an actual engine dyno. Of course that's not practical for most guys, so that's why wheel dynos are a nice alternative. But it is important to understand losses and how/why they come into play.

Racing from a dig is a great way to illustrate that there's no measurable performance losses in 2wd as compared to 4wd. The only way you'd get a better short time is if the 4Runner couldn't hook up well in 2wd. But for the most part that shouldn't be an issue. I can certainly punch my 4Runner on a dry and level pavement and take off without any wheelspin at all.

 

[Thai]

Torque curve differences b/w 4.0L V6 vs. 4.7L V8 (non-VVTi): http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?p=452676#post452676

Hope this helps with the debate.... :hatsoff:

 

[ToyTech99]

Torque curve differences b/w 4.0L V6 vs. 4.7L V8 (non-VVTi): http://www.toyota-4runner.org/showthread.php?p=452676#post452676

Hope this helps with the debate.... :hatsoff:

Wow, that's a great thread with great info. Thanks for pointing it out!

So it seems that the V6 comes very close to mirroring the torque curve of the V8 (I wish you had the updated VVT V8 chart), with nearly the same percentage of it's overall torque available at each measured point. That goes to prove my point that the V6 is no high strung motor and makes a lot of low end grunt, similar to the V8.

 

[SpaceNeedle]

is it still manufactured in Japan?

 

[Uneek]

is it still manufactured in Japan?

Yes, at the Tahara plant.

 

[thequickad]

I completely disagree with this thread. V8 is what made the 4runner great and outstanding among mediocre SUVs. They should have put the new 5.7L V8 now I will no longer be buying the 4runner as it's just "ANOTHER" SUV.

:roadkill:

 

[Alex1911]

I completely disagree with this thread. V8 is what made the 4runner great and outstanding among mediocre SUVs. They should have put the new 5.7L V8 now I will no longer be buying the 4runner as it's just "ANOTHER" SUV.

:roadkill:

I agree with the first part of your statement, but the 5.7l would be overkill... The 4.6l would be plenty good.

Now, if you really want to get into "something Toyota should build": Get a Limited trim, Trail Edition hood, throw in the 5.7l, drop the truck 2", 20" street tires, full time 4wd but w/o the 4l, X-Reas... Call it the X-Runner or Urban Runner, I bet they'd sell a few of those and it'd be a downright nasty grocery getter. I wouldn't buy one, but it would be neat.

 

[J.A.]

Now, if you really want to get into "something Toyota should build": Get a Limited trim, Trail Edition hood, throw in the 5.7l, drop the truck 2", 20" street tires, full time 4wd but w/o the 4l, X-Reas... Call it the X-Runner or Urban Runner, I bet they'd sell a few of those and it'd be a downright nasty grocery getter. I wouldn't buy one, but it would be neat.

While we are dreaming why not add the TRD Supercharger to the 5.7L...its only $6-7k installed and gets you 504 HP and 550 LB-FT Torque.

 

[Thai]

While we are dreaming why not add the TRD Supercharger to the 5.7L...its only $6-7k installed and gets you 504 HP and 550 LB-FT Torque.

Might as well get a brand new differential and transmission while you're at it too!

 

[M1911]

Might as well get a brand new differential and transmission while you're at it too!

And a frequent flyer card at your local tire shop...

 

[Alex1911]

While we are dreaming why not add the TRD Supercharger to the 5.7L...its only $6-7k installed and gets you 504 HP and 550 LB-FT Torque.

I didn't want to get out of control Supposedly the Tundra with the SC 5.7l really smokes. Heck, I thought the Tundra with just the 5.7l was really quick.

 

[Uneek]

While we are dreaming why not add the TRD Supercharger to the 5.7L...its only $6-7k installed and gets you 504 HP and 550 LB-FT Torque.

Trailblazer SS competitor.

 

[M1911]

Trailblazer SS competitor.

The Trailblazer is dead. It is no more. It is pushing up the daisies.

 

[snap315]

I remember when I was looking at replacing my old Chevy S10 Blazer back in 2003. I wanted a slightly larger and more powerful vehicle to fill all of the roles I needed it to do (I only own 1 vehicle at a time).

I researched and tested almost every SUV on the market (that wasn't what I'd consider a "Soccerr Mom" or Grocery Getter vehicle). There was very little to choose from that fit the bill. I almost bought a Chevy Trailblazer but luckily I was given one as a company vehicle and realized how much they sucked.

I was seriously considering either a Tahoe to the Sequioa, even though they were both bigger than I really wanted.

Then I saw a brand new Limited 4Runner sitting at a dealership. It was love at first sight. I hadn't seriously considered a 4Runner because I had always found them underpowered for their class. The inclusion of a V8 to the 4th Gen changed my mind.

If I was doing the same research today, I'd probably exclude the 5th Gen for that same reason.

 

[jwyshrek]

What made toyota great was reliable go anywhere engines NOT competeing with bloated American V8's. Big block 4x4 V8 engines from the 70's and earlier had less than 200HP BTW.

Er, no, you need to double check your numbers...68-69 big blocks were making well over 400HP...some even 500HP...granted those were gross number, but even adjusted for net numbers, still had over 300HP...and tire shredding TORQUE.

And most people have swallowed the tripe about HP numbers. What you see in the brochures is peak HP.

What can matter most is the power curve over the entire RPM range. V8s compare to V6s (non forced induction) have (especially big blocks) broad, relatively flat power curves compare to V6s (which are better than I4s, of course).

And HP is work over time. TORQUE is the actually amount of power an engine makes at any given point...HP is about how fast you can make that power.

There are I4s that can make as much power as a V8, but you don't see them in heavy vehicles like full size trucks...why...TORQUE! It is the thing that gives you that push in the back off the line, it is what gets you up the mountain when fully loaded.

And to get TORQUE, there is a saying in America...'There's no replacement for displacement' (excluding forced induction of course).

Actually I won't mind a V6...just a big V6...say 4.6L :wink2:

anywho...

 

[charlier180]

For me, dropping the tow rating of the 2010 4Runner to 5,000 lbs means Toyota will lose me as a customer when my current 4Runner needs to be replaced.
The Tundra and Sequoia are simply not options for me as they do not fit my needs.
Hopefully, before I need to replace my 4Runner, Toyota will offer a 4Runner with the 7K towing capacity that I need with an engine that is capable of doing the job.
If not, bye bye Toyota....