Land Cruiser guy looking for a Trail, KDSS or not

[10ga]

Hey guys, I've had several 4Runners but noting newer than a 2005 model. I've always had a Land Cruiser for trail riding and Overlanding but I want to make the change to a Trail Edition 4Runner. I just sold my 99 built 100 Series Land Cruiser so I am on the search. I have done some research on KDSS and while it seems like a great system, I'm not sure it's what I want. Seems like something else to tear up in my opinion but maybe I'm wrong.

Here's my questions,
Is it harder to lift a T4R with KDSS?

If I didn't lift it, what would be the largest tire I can get under it?

Has anyone put an ARB air locker up front and is there any reason I wouldn't want to do that? All of my Cruisers had front, rear, and center diff lockers so there wasn't many places I couldn't go. Looks like the Trail has the rear locker and A-Track system so maybe a front air locker isn't even needed. I'm 51 now so I find that I don't need to hit the locker switch as much as I use to. Maybe I'm a better driver but I also tend to take a little easier trail than I use to.

Has anyone re-geared their 2010 or newer Trail? If I went with say 285/70R17 tires, would I even need to re-gear? My last Cruiser had 315/75R16's with a lot of armor and lift, it had 4.88 gears and drove like a dream with plenty of power. I don't want to get too crazy in mods because this will also be my DD.

I found a 2010 Trail with 76,000 miles and seems like it's priced right and it doesn't have KDSS. I also found a 2014 with KDSS. It's only $5000 more than the 2010 and has 42,000 miles. I'm leaning heavy toward the 2014 but I don't know anything about the KDSS. If I could get by with 285's and no lift, that's would be about all I need.

Thanks for your help

 

[CO-Cygnus]

Lifting a KDSS 4Runner is different than a non-KDSS lift, but plenty have done it with no problems.

Tire Fitment Guide here: http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...r-5th-gen-tire-fitment-guide.html#post1550444

 

[Brandonium]

For what it is worth. You will get a LOT of KDSS hate and love with a question like this. Be prepared for it.

General rule of thumb is no more than 3".. and that anything over a 265/70R17 will cause rubbing without performing a fender liner modification.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/154230-how-lift-installation-kdss-equipped-vehicles.html

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-gen-t4rs/201614-time-beat-kdss-horse.html

 

[bimrunner]

KDSS is up to you. Yes, you can lift it but if you want to go to LT, you will have to pull it out. Yes, plenty have put air lockers in. I have them front and rear. Perfect time to install is regearing! Having said that, you can run 285s with stock gears if you aren't planning to get the rig heavy with armor. I'd recommend driving one and seeing if you like the power. It is different than the v8 100. Sounds like you might be able to just live with some 5100s to level, install 285s and drive it. If you find yourself wanting more capability, you can easily add from that point what you need.

 

[Engineer]

Hey guys, I've had several 4Runners but noting newer than a 2005 model. I've always had a Land Cruiser for trail riding and Overlanding but I want to make the change to a Trail Edition 4Runner. I just sold my 99 built 100 Series Land Cruiser so I am on the search. I have done some research on KDSS and while it seems like a great system, I'm not sure it's what I want. Seems like something else to tear up in my opinion but maybe I'm wrong.

Here's my questions,
Is it harder to lift a T4R with KDSS?
Slightly more work involved but I have never heard of any shop charging more for it, I did it myself and yea it was a bit of a pain but with the write ups here, with minimal skill, one could take apart most of the 4runner
If I didn't lift it, what would be the largest tire I can get under it?
Depends on the tire (tread) design and how much rubbing you want to live with, ROUGH rule of thumb 275 if you are staying stock but there is a great thread in the stickies with more details
Has anyone put an ARB air locker up front and is there any reason I wouldn't want to do that? Plenty have, I would say for most folks A-TRAC is more then fine All of my Cruisers had front, rear, and center diff lockers so there wasn't many places I couldn't go. Looks like the Trail has the rear locker and A-Track system so maybe a front air locker isn't even needed. I'm 51 now so I find that I don't need to hit the locker switch as much as I use to. Maybe I'm a better driver but I also tend to take a little easier trail than I use to.

Has anyone re-geared their 2010 or newer Trail? If I went with say 285/70R17 tires, would I even need to re-gear?Totally subjective, "need" to re-gear with 285, absolutely not and most only do it when adding lots of weight/drag creating modifications. That said, I do not have front or rear bumpers and 4.56 is on my list in time but I am in no rush My last Cruiser had 315/75R16's with a lot of armor and lift, it had 4.88 gears and drove like a dream with plenty of power. I don't want to get too crazy in mods because this will also be my DD. @1engineer has a good post a couple pages back on modifications and what to expect, you likely already know this being from a LC background but stock the 4runner is a little underpowered for most peoples desire but start stacking on the mods and you better be willing to pay the price and not b**** about it every other post. I get 12-14mpg (almost all city) and Cruise control is near worthless but its all my own doing, no fault of Toyotas

I found a 2010 Trail with 76,000 miles and seems like it's priced right and it doesn't have KDSS. I also found a 2014 with KDSS. It's only $5000 more than the 2010 and has 42,000 miles. I'm leaning heavy toward the 2014 but I don't know anything about the KDSS. If I could get by with 285's and no lift, that's would be about all I need. Some hate KDSS, some swear by it, I am firmly in the middle. I like KDSS I was able to notice it in my test drive, now would I be able to tell a difference between a 4runner with aftermarket suspension w/ and w/o KDSS I donno. If a 4runner has it that you like I would not shy away from it unless you are planning to do LT or SAS swap but I also would say if it Doesn't have it, no worries , prices adjusted accordingly.

Thanks for your help

Red Above, My advice, even though you have an off road background drive for a couple months stock and see what you need. Look forward to having you on the team

 

[1engineer]

Hey guys, I've had several 4Runners but noting newer than a 2005 model. I've always had a Land Cruiser for trail riding and Overlanding but I want to make the change to a Trail Edition 4Runner. I just sold my 99 built 100 Series Land Cruiser so I am on the search. I have done some research on KDSS and while it seems like a great system, I'm not sure it's what I want. Seems like something else to tear up in my opinion but maybe I'm wrong.

Here's my questions,
Is it harder to lift a T4R with KDSS?

If I didn't lift it, what would be the largest tire I can get under it?

Has anyone put an ARB air locker up front and is there any reason I wouldn't want to do that? All of my Cruisers had front, rear, and center diff lockers so there wasn't many places I couldn't go. Looks like the Trail has the rear locker and A-Track system so maybe a front air locker isn't even needed. I'm 51 now so I find that I don't need to hit the locker switch as much as I use to. Maybe I'm a better driver but I also tend to take a little easier trail than I use to.

Has anyone re-geared their 2010 or newer Trail? If I went with say 285/70R17 tires, would I even need to re-gear? My last Cruiser had 315/75R16's with a lot of armor and lift, it had 4.88 gears and drove like a dream with plenty of power. I don't want to get too crazy in mods because this will also be my DD.

I found a 2010 Trail with 76,000 miles and seems like it's priced right and it doesn't have KDSS. I also found a 2014 with KDSS. It's only $5000 more than the 2010 and has 42,000 miles. I'm leaning heavy toward the 2014 but I don't know anything about the KDSS. If I could get by with 285's and no lift, that's would be about all I need.

Thanks for your help

Unless you are going balls out Rubicon, ATRAC is all you need. Rear locker for back up. You really need to search here on your related topic as there are hundreds of relevant threads in regards to your questions. The first link here http://www.toyota-4runner.org/5th-g...ner-owner-need-help-searching-start-here.html will answer 90% of your questions or at least point you in the right direction.

You would just be wasting your money to re-gear for 285's. They are only an inch bigger than stock. 34's are where you need to think about that.

If I were going to build one for primarily off roading like I used to do I would buy a used 2010+ SR5. The savings you would get would allow you to put a nice suspension under it, 34's, re-gear and while doing that have lockers installed front and rear. With a bit of armor and front bumper you could now go anywhere.

You can do the same with a trail (KDSS or without) but you are paying extra for stuff you won't need if you are going to heavily modify it. FWIW I drive a stock TE with KDSS nowadays lol. Just some decent tires and there's nowhere I want to go that I can't go.

 

[Muzzle of Bees]

I would bet that the Crawl feature in the Trail Premium, or whatever they will call the 2017 model, could be a decent replacement for the front and mid locker.

 

[(none)]

I came from an LC80 as well and that is a bit why I chose the 5th gen 4runner, it's about as modern day of an 80 series as you can get. The two are nearly identical in size.

If you are worried about power, coming from the 80, the 5th gen will feel much quicker, because it is.

KDSS? I plan to (hopefully) keep this one for a long time, so I went without. I figure it's another thing to break down the road. That being said, I wasn't about to decide a purchase just based on that. If I found a great deal with KDSS, I would still buy it.

You'll see people who call these things slow, underpowered and don't handle well. They must've been driving cars prior to picking one up. Coming from the LC80, it feels very similar to me, but more refined. Still a truck-like ride, but the IFS takes the bumps better. The steering is tighter and more precise. The brakes are light-years better.

Now if I can only get it flex like my 80 did...

 

[bimrunner]

I came from an LC80 as well and that is a bit why I chose the 5th gen 4runner, it's about as modern day of an 80 series as you can get. The two are nearly identical in size.

If you are worried about power, coming from the 80, the 5th gen will feel much quicker, because it is.

KDSS? I plan to (hopefully) keep this one for a long time, so I went without. I figure it's another thing to break down the road. That being said, I wasn't about to decide a purchase just based on that. If I found a great deal with KDSS, I would still buy it.

You'll see people who call these things slow, underpowered and don't handle well. They must've been driving cars prior to picking one up. Coming from the LC80, it feels very similar to me, but more refined. Still a truck-like ride, but the IFS takes the bumps better. The steering is tighter and more precise. The brakes are light-years better.

Now if I can only get it flex like my 80 did...

He had a 100... so pretty sure it will feel slower. I have an 80 as well and mine now flexes about as good as the 80. It did take going to LT front and rear to get there though!

 

[KCcarguy]

I think one big misconception is that KDSS provides a big advantage offroad. The best thing about KDSS is improved handling on the street. I agree with [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] that, for the money, a SR5 is the way to go if you plan on heavily modifying your rig.

 

[Brandonium]

Yes, those big swaybars do help on the curvy roads that's for sure.

Out of curiosity if you slap on the same 3" suspension on a Trail with KDSS and a SR5 are both equally capable or does the SR5 edge out the Trail in terms of physical limitations (let's assume just 4-lo without using Atrac, locking diff or any of the crawl control).

I think one big misconception is that KDSS provides a big advantage offroad. The best thing about KDSS is improved handling on the street. I agree with [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] that, for the money, a SR5 is the way to go if you plan on heavily modifying your rig.

 

[1engineer]

I think one big misconception is that KDSS provides a big advantage offroad. The best thing about KDSS is improved handling on the street. I agree with [MENTION=66316]1engineer[/MENTION] that, for the money, a SR5 is the way to go if you plan on heavily modifying your rig.

Yeah but going slow off road with KDSS will give you more articulation than non KDSS. I concur the bigger advantage is on the street though.

 

[KCcarguy]

Yes, those big swaybars do help on the curvy roads that's for sure.

Out of curiosity if you slap on the same 3" suspension on a Trail with KDSS and a SR5 are both equally capable or does the SR5 edge out the Trail in terms of physical limitations (let's assume just 4-lo without using Atrac, locking diff or any of the crawl control).

I suppose the TE would have the advantage. But is it worth several thousand more dollars? FWIW [MENTION=84479]Petromaniac[/MENTION] and I have wheeled together a lot and we've never run into a situation where his TE could conquer an obstacle my SR5 could not. That being said, I have videos of us going up the same rocky sections of trail and his TE has less "bobbing" motion over the rough stuff. IMO the biggest advantage of a TE is the factory locker.

Another thing worth mentioning is looks. I think the 2010-2012 TE is much nicer looking than the SR5. From 2013 on its not an issue.

 

[craigster59]

I just moved over to a Trail w/ KDSS from an '07 Tacoma and before that an FJ62 (so I KNOW what slow is!). Installing a 3" Toytec Ultimate lift this weekend, I'm figuring 6 hours labor.
The only problem I've found with lifting a KDSS 4Runner was finding a suspension shop that knew what the heck I was talking about. They are either clueless about the system or swear up and down that "you can't lift those trucks". I decided if I wanted it done right I'd do it myself.

 

[mwray8909]

I just moved over to a Trail w/ KDSS from an '07 Tacoma and before that an FJ62 (so I KNOW what slow is!). Installing a 3" Toytec Ultimate lift this weekend, I'm figuring 6 hours labor.
The only problem I've found with lifting a KDSS 4Runner was finding a suspension shop that knew what the heck I was talking about. They are either clueless about the system or swear up and down that "you can't lift those trucks". I decided if I wanted it done right I'd do it myself.

Where are you located in socal?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

 

[1engineer]

I suppose the TE would have the advantage. But is it worth several thousand more dollars? FWIW [MENTION=84479]Petromaniac[/MENTION] and I have wheeled together a lot and we've never run into a situation where his TE could conquer an obstacle my SR5 could not. That being said, I have videos of us going up the same rocky sections of trail and his TE has less "bobbing" motion over the rough stuff. IMO the biggest advantage of a TE is the factory locker.

Another thing worth mentioning is looks. I think the 2010-2012 TE is much nicer looking than the SR5. From 2013 on its not an issue.

Personally I agree because seldom am I in a place where I am at the limit of articulation lol. But it is an advantage. For $1500 buck option there is nothing available in aftermarket that will firm up the handling on road and allow more articulation off road either. As a matter of fact you would have to spend many times that amount to get that performance from aftermarket and it would require air and it would be manual to boot.

 

[craigster59]

Where are you located in socal?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G890A using Tapatalk

Santa Clarita. Grew up in Ventura, moved to Fillmore and now in Santa Clarita. I keep moving east, my dream is to end up in Lancaster. :jk:

Casitas Springs is nice, I take the backroad from Santa Paula to Ojai to ventura a lot. Always stopping for pizza and beer at Boccalli's.

 

[wfo9]

I would bet that the Crawl feature in the Trail Premium, or whatever they will call the 2017 model, could be a decent replacement for the front and mid locker.

LOL. Funny statement. Not even close. BTW all 4wd 5th gen 4runners have a mid locker, if that is what you want to call it....

 

[wfo9]

Hey guys, I've had several 4Runners but noting newer than a 2005 model. I've always had a Land Cruiser for trail riding and Overlanding but I want to make the change to a Trail Edition 4Runner. I just sold my 99 built 100 Series Land Cruiser so I am on the search. I have done some research on KDSS and while it seems like a great system, I'm not sure it's what I want. Seems like something else to tear up in my opinion but maybe I'm wrong.

Here's my questions,
Is it harder to lift a T4R with KDSS?

If I didn't lift it, what would be the largest tire I can get under it?

Has anyone put an ARB air locker up front and is there any reason I wouldn't want to do that? All of my Cruisers had front, rear, and center diff lockers so there wasn't many places I couldn't go. Looks like the Trail has the rear locker and A-Track system so maybe a front air locker isn't even needed. I'm 51 now so I find that I don't need to hit the locker switch as much as I use to. Maybe I'm a better driver but I also tend to take a little easier trail than I use to.


Has anyone re-geared their 2010 or newer Trail? If I went with say 285/70R17 tires, would I even need to re-gear? My last Cruiser had 315/75R16's with a lot of armor and lift, it had 4.88 gears and drove like a dream with plenty of power. I don't want to get too crazy in mods because this will also be my DD.

I found a 2010 Trail with 76,000 miles and seems like it's priced right and it doesn't have KDSS. I also found a 2014 with KDSS. It's only $5000 more than the 2010 and has 42,000 miles. I'm leaning heavy toward the 2014 but I don't know anything about the KDSS. If I could get by with 285's and no lift, that's would be about all I need.

Thanks for your help

KDSS is a very controversial option. Some love it...some hate it. I know guys that have it that despise it. But I also know people with it that adore it. Most adore it. It really depends on your use case and plans. From what you described... I would get it. But test drive it a bit to see.

Most of your questions have been answered... lots have re-geared and many have done front lockers. Even though ATRAC... is pretty good. There is no replacement for the locker in really tough situations. It's not even close. If you never encounter those... then you do not need it. Atrac plus the rear locker can actually get you though just about anything... but it can get ugly and is not always graceful. Pretty sure you will find the crawl control useless.

I would start with the 33s and see where that gets you... No reason you can't add capability based on needs. They sort of beg for a lift due to size of the body... but everyone's definition of off-road is different. If there are not many approach and departure challenges in your plans.. then keep it stock height. But most end up with a lift.

As far as lifting with KDSS, it can easily be done, but you might have trouble finding a shop that will do it. It has some quirks that most shops don't want to fiddle with (like the KDSS lean). Also if you do some mid speed trail or desert type stuff.. KDSS can be pretty annoying. It stiffens things up quite a bit at speed. some have disconnected the controller and had luck at mid speed. Also, if KDSS fails (which is very rare under 150k) it can be really difficult and expensive to get it serviced. Many Toyota dealers do not have the tools.... It's a very rare and unique system overall. I highly recommend getting under a truck with it and studying the layout. It's not really easy to go back to a traditional sway-bar type system since some of the frame mounts are missing on the KDSS trucks.

 

[JSparky]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.. be sure you check the difference in ground clearance under the front diff on kdss vs non-kdss 4runner's.. that alone may be enough to make up your mind. Seriously go to your dealer and crawl underneath and look for yourself. If you choose not to go kdss you're open to sr5 and limited models as well. Sounds like you know what you're doing so you can probably take the build from there.. look forward to seeing what you do!