Long Crank Time

[gruenegenes]

Update:

The problem has been getting worse and it’s still intermittent. Sometimes I’ll have to turn the key three times for it to start.

I had the injectors rebuilt by Fuel Injector Specialists (thank you Spartacus for the recommendation). I installed them today and replaced the fuel pressure regulator while I was at it. The crank time seemed to decrease until it warmed up. Then the long crank time returned and I had to turn the key twice for it to start a few times. Then a new problem started – it’s losing power while driving – pedal to the floor and no acceleration for about one to three seconds.

To relieve the fuel pressure before replacing the injectors today, I loosened the fittings to the fuel filter, but nothing happened. There was no pressure. So I think I’m dealing with intermittent fuel pressure loss.

Little Caesar, you had mentioned it could be an ECU fuse on the way out. Somebody else mentioned that to me. I'll try that tomorrow. If that's not it, I’m out of ideas. Any suggestions?

To recap, here’s what I’ve done
- Replaced fuel injectors with OEM rebuilt injectors
- Replaced fuel pressure regulator with OEM
- Checked and cleaned all grounds in the engine compartment and on battery
- Replaced plugs
- Replaced plug wires
- Replaced battery
- Replaced fuel filter
- Replaced air filter
- Replaced PCV valve
- Replaced fuel pump and pump screen with OEM
- Replaced front (AF) and rear O2 sensors
- Cleaned MAF sensor
- Cleaned throttle body
- Disconnected battery to clear memory
- Ohm tested Throttle Control Motor, Throttle Position Sensor and Accelerator Pedal Position Sensor – all 3 passed (the 2002 doesn’t have an Idle Air Control Valve)
- No check engine light and no stored codes
- Ran through 2 cans of seafoam

 

[LittleCaesar]

I would like to believe that the ECU fuse is the culprit. At the age of these 4runners electrical gremlins can wreck havoc.

Given that there was no fuel at the filter I would then remove the back seat and access the connector through the floor. I believe the connector should have 12v KOEO at all times. Use your multimeter to verify that it does. Plug it back in and listen for the pump to turn on.

How long ago was the pump replaced? OEM parts rarely go bad but the other day I saw where some older Toyota OEM water pumps are new being made in the PRC so with that lax quality control there anything is possible.

 

[gruenegenes]

Great idea, I’ll check the pump. I replaced it a month ago, but who knows.

One other thing - before I disconnected the lines to the fuel filter to relieve pressure (but there was no pressure), I opened the gas cap and when I did, a bunch of air whooshed in or out. Not sure which direction. I’m wondering if the tank isn’t venting properly - not letting air in - I suppose it’s possible the pump wouldn’t be able to operate if so. Anybody ever have issues with the fuel tank not venting?

 

[19963.4lsr5]

You also have the drive by wire Throttle Body. There could be something going wrong with the stepper motor that opens the throttle plate.

Or fuel pump starting to fail.


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[LittleCaesar]

Great idea, I’ll check the pump. I replaced it a month ago, but who knows.

One other thing - before I disconnected the lines to the fuel filter to relieve pressure (but there was no pressure), I opened the gas cap and when I did, a bunch of air whooshed in or out. Not sure which direction. I’m wondering if the tank isn’t venting properly - not letting air in - I suppose it’s possible the pump wouldn’t be able to operate if so. Anybody ever have issues with the fuel tank not venting?

If your vent valve on the tank isn’t working properly then it should trip the money light and some PO 4xx code should pop up. Sometimes one can smell the valve leaking. If you had the right scan tool you could test it (bi directional one). But I don’t believe it would cause the hard cranks....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=D-HPp2-_PFM

Ever get a code reader app for the IPhone?

 

[gruenegenes]

I got the Car Scanner ELM OBD2 with a Bluetooth connector, but I don’t believe it’s bi-directional. No codes found. Is there a bi-directional one you’d recommend?

I just replaced every fuse related to the ECU or fuel injection. I think it was around 7 in all. I asked my daughter to test drive it for about 30 minutes. I’m praying for a winner this time!

 

[LittleCaesar]

Good luck then. Keep us abreast.

As far as a bidirectional scanner goes, they start in the couple of hundred dollars and up. Not really fiscally prudent for a DIYer.

 

[BayAreaT4R]

From what I've read the past few months is that its guaranteed the fuel pump. I have the same issue, but it still fires up. Eventually I'll change the pump out.

 

[gruenegenes]

From tonight’s test drive the power loss has gotten so bad it’s not reliable to drive. It’s odd because it just started less than a week ago.

At any rate, I’m punting! I’m out of time so I dropped it off at the mechanic. I can’t wait to find out what the heck is wrong with it.

 

[LittleCaesar]

That stinks. Let us know what the fix is.

 

[dork0900]

My 4Runner takes 2 to 3 seconds

 

[gruenegenes]

The mechanic has had the vehicle for three days and they can't get the problem to repeat.

This is a real head scratcher.

I'm wondering if this is a computer issue. Here's the sequence of events
- Slow start has been happening for some time
- I replace, clean and fix a whole bunch of things (see my list from previous posts) and the problem gets worse
- Friday of last week, it loses power for the first time while driving. It's once or twice and not for long.
- Saturday I replace the fuel injectors and fuel pressure regulator and the power loss is bad enough that I had to pick up my daughter (it's her 4Runner) and drive it home for her. It would lose power every 3 or 4 minutes for 1 to 4 seconds.
- Sunday I replaced all fuses related to fuel injection and ECU and the power loss was so bad that it would lose power two to three times a minute for 1 to 4 seconds. That's when I dropped it off with the mechanic.

When I disconnected the battery to replace the injectors and FPR (battery was disconnected for several hours) and again when I replaced the fuses (I pulled the fuses and took them with me to parts store so they were out for over 30 minutes) I'm assuming the computer's settings for fuel/air mixture and whatever else reset. And at the same time I replaced the injectors and FPR. I wonder if the combination of those things required the computer to relearn the proper A/F ratio and whatever else and as soon as the mechanic got it, it was dialed in.

I'll pick it up tonight and update if I learn anything new.

 

[19963.4lsr5]

The mechanic has had the vehicle for three days and they can't get the problem to repeat.

This is a real head scratcher.

I'm wondering if this is a computer issue. Here's the sequence of events
- Slow start has been happening for some time
- I replace, clean and fix a whole bunch of things (see my list from previous posts) and the problem gets worse
- Friday of last week, it loses power for the first time while driving. It's once or twice and not for long.
- Saturday I replace the fuel injectors and fuel pressure regulator and the power loss is bad enough that I had to pick up my daughter (it's her 4Runner) and drive it home for her. It would lose power every 3 or 4 minutes for 1 to 4 seconds.
- Sunday I replaced all fuses related to fuel injection and ECU and the power loss was so bad that it would lose power two to three times a minute for 1 to 4 seconds. That's when I dropped it off with the mechanic.

When I disconnected the battery to replace the injectors and FPR (battery was disconnected for several hours) and again when I replaced the fuses (I pulled the fuses and took them with me to parts store so they were out for over 30 minutes) I'm assuming the computer's settings for fuel/air mixture and whatever else reset. And at the same time I replaced the injectors and FPR. I wonder if the combination of those things required the computer to relearn the proper A/F ratio and whatever else and as soon as the mechanic got it, it was dialed in.

I'll pick it up tonight and update if I learn anything new.

You did dump all the adaptive’s when you did that which did require a relearn.


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[photoleif]

The mechanic has had the vehicle for three days and they can't get the problem to repeat.

This is a real head scratcher.

I'm wondering if this is a computer issue. Here's the sequence of events
- Slow start has been happening for some time
- I replace, clean and fix a whole bunch of things (see my list from previous posts) and the problem gets worse
- Friday of last week, it loses power for the first time while driving. It's once or twice and not for long.
- Saturday I replace the fuel injectors and fuel pressure regulator and the power loss is bad enough that I had to pick up my daughter (it's her 4Runner) and drive it home for her. It would lose power every 3 or 4 minutes for 1 to 4 seconds.
- Sunday I replaced all fuses related to fuel injection and ECU and the power loss was so bad that it would lose power two to three times a minute for 1 to 4 seconds. That's when I dropped it off with the mechanic.

When I disconnected the battery to replace the injectors and FPR (battery was disconnected for several hours) and again when I replaced the fuses (I pulled the fuses and took them with me to parts store so they were out for over 30 minutes) I'm assuming the computer's settings for fuel/air mixture and whatever else reset. And at the same time I replaced the injectors and FPR. I wonder if the combination of those things required the computer to relearn the proper A/F ratio and whatever else and as soon as the mechanic got it, it was dialed in.

I'll pick it up tonight and update if I learn anything new.

are you finding you need to top off your oil occasionally? your photo of your spark plug looks like you've got oil entering the combustion chamber, and thus a ring job may be needed. what do your new sparks look like now? would you do a then/now photo? just pick one that's easy to pull.

it's also possible that the darkened appearance is not oil but a too-rich condition. you said you replaced the O2 and A/F sensors. what did they look like, btw?

 

[LittleCaesar]

Did they hook up a decent code reader to it? Any anomalies in the live data? Anything aftermarket in it as far as electrical is concerned?

 

[gruenegenes]

are you finding you need to top off your oil occasionally? your photo of your spark plug looks like you've got oil entering the combustion chamber, and thus a ring job may be needed. what do your new sparks look like now? would you do a then/now photo? just pick one that's easy to pull.

it's also possible that the darkened appearance is not oil but a too-rich condition. you said you replaced the O2 and A/F sensors. what did they look like, btw?

Oil level is holding fine, but that’s a good idea on the plugs. I’ll check them. O2 and A/F looked tan/light brown when I replaced them.

 

[gruenegenes]

Did they hook up a decent code reader to it? Any anomalies in the live data? Anything aftermarket in it as far as electrical is concerned?

They checked for codes and found none. I didn’t ask about live data, but I’ll follow up with them. The live data on my scanner was within specs, but my scanner is far from pro grade.

I think you’re on to something with your electrical question. My suspicion has turned from fuel to electrical this week. Nothing aftermarket electrical currently installed, but at some point a PO installed an amplifier and other sound stuff. It was all gone by the time I got the vehicle, but I could tell it wasn’t a clean installation. I had to clean up the battery ground. There’s also a fuse in the inside fuse box occupying a location that is vacant in the all the Toyota documentation I’ve seen. I can’t tell what it’s connected to. The mechanic found a bit of bare wire in the igniter wire harness that he wrapped with tape, but he didn’t mention it as a concern. I’ll follow up this post with videos of it having difficulty starting....

 

[gruenegenes]

Status:
- After picking up from the mechanic, the loss of power issue while driving has stopped. I'm concerned because it only lasted three days and nothing was done to fix it.
- The long crank time has evolved. It's gotten longer and it's not just a long crank. It now has kind of an exasperated sound right before it starts. It's doing this every time now.

If you look at my recent posts on this thread, you'll see I'm thinking this could be an electrical issue. If for no other reason than I've essentially replaced the fuel system

I have videos my daughter recorded of the last three starts. I can't seem to upload the videos so I saved them to google drive. Let me know if you have access issues.

IMG_1866.MOV - Google Drive

IMG_1865.mov - Google Drive

IMG_1863.mov - Google Drive

 

[LittleCaesar]

It is a good thing that your daughter is an optimist. It will serve her well in life.

I would go over both interior and under the hood fuse boxes with a fine tooth comb. Something may not be grounding correctly or the like. Also even pull the radio and snoop around.

Also, did the mechanic perform a fuel pressure test, both cold and warm?

 

[tyler.lewis]

It is a good thing that your daughter is an optimist. It will serve her well in life.

I would go over both interior and under the hood fuse boxes with a fine tooth comb. Something may not be grounding correctly or the like. Also even pull the radio and snoop around.

Also, did the mechanic perform a fuel pressure test, both cold and warm?

Mechanic said that he couldn’t get the problem to occur so I bet he wouldn’t pull out full pressure gauge.

When I have long cranks (2-3 sec.) it’s when it’s hot. When it’s cold, it rotates over maybe twice and fires right up. I havent really looked into it because it’s been that way since I bought it from the PO.


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