Magnuson Supercharger for 2010-Present & 2010-2014 FJ

[Jetboy]

I guess I need to learn more about the ECU on these vehicles. My understanding is that folks like DAP can re-write some fixed values - like shift point in 1st gear under WOT. Values that are set and do not change. Redline. And values for the open loop operations. The fuel, spark, valve, etc. maps should be "smart" as I understand them. Meaning they constantly overwrite the existing maps for closed loop based on knock sensor readings and I'm not sure what else. Maybe the o2 sensor readings. So remapping those parameters for closed loop operation would only last long enough for the ECU to relearn again. I think that's why DAP only gets 15-20hp, which is probably an adjustment to WOT open loop presets. Without the ability to rewrite the goal seek values, I don't know how you'd have any sort of lasting solution for normal operational benefits. I don't see any tuner making any headway on that sort of tune.

My hope is that Magnuson has access to the ECU to make more complex adjustments, or that Toyota already has them built into the software and Magnuson as a former OEM supplier knows how to access the alternate options in the ECU. It may be as simple as turning them on and off. There's just a lot I don't know about the ECU.

I hope they will give us at least a high level explanation of what they're doing so we can make an informed decision about the product. Even if it's just "we're tuning open loop because that's where the engine is at risk, and closed loop can already manage the supercharger" or an explanation that they can flash some reference values that are non-learn values and get safe AFRs. They certainly don't need to open up the playbook - but at least some sort of information to show that it's not the vaporware from 90% of the mail order performance options. Obviously they've been doing this a long time. I'm not challenging their reputation. Just hoping for a little bit of information about what I'd actually be doing to my vehicle.

 

[Brandonium]

Pretty sure the same as with any vehicle warranty that has a non-oem item added?????

What is the impact of the Toyota warranty?

 

[wfo9]

I guess I need to learn more about the ECU on these vehicles. My understanding is that folks like DAP can re-write some fixed values - like shift point in 1st gear under WOT. Values that are set and do not change. Redline. And values for the open loop operations. The fuel, spark, valve, etc. maps should be "smart" as I understand them. Meaning they constantly overwrite the existing maps for closed loop based on knock sensor readings and I'm not sure what else. Maybe the o2 sensor readings. So remapping those parameters for closed loop operation would only last long enough for the ECU to relearn again. I think that's why DAP only gets 15-20hp, which is probably an adjustment to WOT open loop presets. Without the ability to rewrite the goal seek values, I don't know how you'd have any sort of lasting solution for normal operational benefits. I don't see any tuner making any headway on that sort of tune.

My hope is that Magnuson has access to the ECU to make more complex adjustments, or that Toyota already has them built into the software and Magnuson as a former OEM supplier knows how to access the alternate options in the ECU. It may be as simple as turning them on and off. There's just a lot I don't know about the ECU.

That is not how most ECUs work. There are really 2 parts to it. The calibration data and the OS. The calibration data also includes a small section of learned trims for various things like idle air, knock retard, fuel trims....)

They typically use the same OS across many vehicles and engines.... but the calibration completely changes.... There is often even a calibration for how many cylinders... The OSs are that generic and I've actually played with trying to reverse engineer a few in the past. It is a lot of code much of it is unused on a given platform.

Closed loop operation (anything part throttle) is constantly learning fuel trims based on 02 feedback, but it never re-writes any of the basic calibration tables (like what frequency on the MAF sensor equals what airflow) it just updates short and long term fuel trims. These trims are then used in the closed loop fueling calculations to determine how long to pulse the injector.... You typically can adjust targets for both open and closed loop. Once your under any load.... the targets for AF change... so it typically ignores any feedback at that point. However, these newer Toyota's do have wide band o2s.. so there could be some WOT feedback still active. This would be a good thing...

If you just threw a SC on this motor and dropped in some bigger injectors.. It would run like poop. Even in closed loop it would be so rich that it would just wash down the cylinders. However, if you just update the calibration to tell it the size of the injectors (which is always a calibration setting). It will just run fine at part throttle with no other changes. That is the magic of a MAF sensor. It knows how much air the motor is pulling in...

At WOT however, there would probably be too much timing and not enough fuel for FI (since the cal is very NA oriented and FI typically needs a lower AF ratio, cooler plugs, and less timing under boost)... So you would need dial some calibration back and some up. What is available and what is changed is sort of black magic depending on the particular ECU. There is often 20 or 30 different ways to get the same result. The calculations are very multi faceted.... In the end you need it to put in enough fuel to hit the target AF, and run the right amount of timing so that it does not detonate...

Bottom line, it's not a problem if you have access to the ECU and know the maps and Mag is not new to this.. They have done it over and over, so I'm pretty sure it will work just fine. Now, the canned tunes are usually crap in terms of maximum power, but just like Toyota... they simply dial it in for reliability vs cutting edge output.

I'm not one that believes there is gobs of power in these motors available with just with a tune.. there is some drivability improvements available... but you won't see those on a dyno anyway. The only time you will see tune only numbers jumping big time is turbos.. Those are almost always turned down big time from the factory for obvious reasons.

 

[LawnDart]

I'm happy to be made a believer. So we'll see what happens.

 

[Cytronus]

Signed up e-mail! Exciting!

Thanks for the thread [MENTION=139149]THESS[/MENTION]! I hope I can make the POC group.

 

[Argyle Edison]

That is not how most ECUs work. There are really 2 parts to it. The calibration data and the OS. The calibration data also includes a small section of learned trims for various things like idle air, knock retard, fuel trims....)

They typically use the same OS across many vehicles and engines.... but the calibration completely changes.... There is often even a calibration for how many cylinders... The OSs are that generic and I've actually played with trying to reverse engineer a few in the past. It is a lot of code much of it is unused on a given platform.

Closed loop operation (anything part throttle) is constantly learning fuel trims based on 02 feedback, but it never re-writes any of the basic calibration tables (like what frequency on the MAF sensor equals what airflow) it just updates short and long term fuel trims. These trims are then used in the closed loop fueling calculations to determine how long to pulse the injector.... You typically can adjust targets for both open and closed loop. Once your under any load.... the targets for AF change... so it typically ignores any feedback at that point. However, these newer Toyota's do have wide band o2s.. so there could be some WOT feedback still active. This would be a good thing...

If you just threw a SC on this motor and dropped in some bigger injectors.. It would run like poop. Even in closed loop it would be so rich that it would just wash down the cylinders. However, if you just update the calibration to tell it the size of the injectors (which is always a calibration setting). It will just run fine at part throttle with no other changes. That is the magic of a MAF sensor. It knows how much air the motor is pulling in...

At WOT however, there would probably be too much timing and not enough fuel for FI (since the cal is very NA oriented and FI typically needs a lower AF ratio, cooler plugs, and less timing under boost)... So you would need dial some calibration back and some up. What is available and what is changed is sort of black magic depending on the particular ECU. There is often 20 or 30 different ways to get the same result. The calculations are very multi faceted.... In the end you need it to put in enough fuel to hit the target AF, and run the right amount of timing so that it does not detonate...

Bottom line, it's not a problem if you have access to the ECU and know the maps and Mag is not new to this.. They have done it over and over, so I'm pretty sure it will work just fine. Now, the canned tunes are usually crap in terms of maximum power, but just like Toyota... they simply dial it in for reliability vs cutting edge output.

I'm not one that believes there is gobs of power in these motors available with just with a tune.. there is some drivability improvements available... but you won't see those on a dyno anyway. The only time you will see tune only numbers jumping big time is turbos.. Those are almost always turned down big time from the factory for obvious reasons.

To add to this, DAP (Dustin) is a very cool guy and will take all the time in the world to explain what he does and how it effects the vehicle. I haven't had the ability to use his services yet on my S/C tundra (because of where I live) and because I have a smaller pulley and a few other things, he absolutely must have the vehicle in hand. Which I respect, as most companies in the past (like SCT, Bullydog, Diablo, etc) will just throw out canned tunes and say "good luck".

Magnuson has been selling a Charger and fit kit for the tundra for some time now since TRD has discontinued, and they have been running very well for people. MUCH better than people using the Unichip and other forms of bandaids for tuning (especially with a Flex Fuel truck). So I'm confident they will be doing this setup correctly. Just my opinion

The beauty of what DAP does is in the drivability. He reduces the torque management and dials in the characteristics of the ECU to make it much more enjoyable to drive and use the power you already have. This won't really show up on a dyno.

For me, on my tundra, power is not something I have a shortage of. I just want to be able to utilize what I already have without the ECU/TCU pulling timing and dialing back transmission performance.

 

[Simpleman74]

signed up at the newsletter link and have C.I.F.!!! Lets do this

PICK ME!!!!!

 

[wfo9]

To add to this, DAP (Dustin) is a very cool guy and will take all the time in the world to explain what he does and how it effects the vehicle. I haven't had the ability to use his services yet on my S/C tundra (because of where I live) and because I have a smaller pulley and a few other things, he absolutely must have the vehicle in hand. Which I respect, as most companies in the past (like SCT, Bullydog, Diablo, etc) will just throw out canned tunes and say "good luck".

Magnuson has been selling a Charger and fit kit for the tundra for some time now since TRD has discontinued, and they have been running very well for people. MUCH better than people using the Unichip and other forms of bandaids for tuning (especially with a Flex Fuel truck). So I'm confident they will be doing this setup correctly. Just my opinion

The beauty of what DAP does is in the drivability. He reduces the torque management and dials in the characteristics of the ECU to make it much more enjoyable to drive and use the power you already have. This won't really show up on a dyno.

For me, on my tundra, power is not something I have a shortage of. I just want to be able to utilize what I already have without the ECU/TCU pulling timing and dialing back transmission performance.

Yep, torque management is a huge issue on the 5th gens ... It won't show on a dyno... It's all about the shifts and boy do you feel it kicking in
on these things.

If I end up with the mag I'll probably run it for a while with their canned tune and then take it to him to get it dialed in a little better. I'm only a few hours away. There is just no way for a one size fits all tune to work perfectly. I'm not looking to make gobs of power though.. just more fun to drive. And this truck will eventually have a solid axle and some monster tires if the power-train can turn it.

 

[graciedad04]

Yep, torque management is a huge issue on the 5th gens ... It won't show on a dyno... It's all about the shifts and boy do you feel it kicking in
on these things.

If I end up with the mag I'll probably run it for a while with their canned tune and then take it to him to get it dialed in a little better. I'm only a few hours away. There is just no way for a one size fits all tune to work perfectly. I'm not looking to make gobs of power though.. just more fun to drive. And this truck will eventually have a solid axle and some monster tires if the power-train can turn it.

Looks like it gets around pretty good already man. Nice profile pic

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[Badmeat]

As someone who has owned three vehicles over 400whp, I'm very intrigued. One thing the 5th gen lacks is power. If Toyota would mate an 8 speed trans to the 4R, I would be happy.

I'd be even happier with a supercharger though...

 

[THESS]

Please see in Red

Boost level? 6lbs.

What about fuel - What tuning is done? I mean more than "we flash your ECU" - what are you actually doing to the fuel map, did you break the encryption or get access from Toyota? Is there already an OEM fuel map for boost you just access or did you re-write it? Is it closed loop dynamic learning still? What kind of AFR are you seeing at half and full throttle?

Magnuson was able to gain access. This has been a work in progress for quite some time but not many knew about it. As for the specifics, please be patient as I gather them and as they are passed down.

Does the tune increase redline? Stand by.

When you get hp numbers - 2500rpm hp is far more important than 6,000 rpm hp. Can you get an accurate measurement at say 1500 and 2500 rpms?

Magnuson is aware and hp numbers will be released soon.

Does the tune change throttle input and/or shift points?

Throttle response will increase as the response is more crisp, as for the shift points it felt the same but I will get that answer for you

Does it play nice with crawl control?
Crawl control will be tested prior to release.

In 4lo the throttle map changes and the idle rpm in gear goes up - does this still play nice for rock crawling with those changes?
That is does and it was tested during the travel up to FJ Summit and worked flawlessly. More testing will be completed during their pilot program.

It looks like it uses an auxiliary radiator for the intercooler rather than the OEM cooling system. Is that correct? If so where does the intercooler radiator live? Specifically does it interfere with our winches (in front of the lower center of the radiator) or have an issue with air flow for folks with winches? Same question for transmission coolers. Basically - where do you mount the radiator and how is it mounted?
For reference - this is where many/most winches live:

You are correct. It is a very concealable i/c that sits in front of the radiator but doesn't encompass it. It sits at a height that does not appear like it will have any issues with those running winches. It will come with mounting brackets to mount that and the reservoir. Using your picture as reference, it will sit on the left side behind that hard-line and above where your winch sits. As the pilot program proceeds and the various owners with many different modifications put it to the test, many questions and or concerns will get answered and addressed prior to full release to public.


Just a few starter questions. Thanks!

Many solid in depth questions and I apologize for not having all of them and responding so much later in the day. However, I promise, that I will get those questions answered to the T when I receive them. I want to insure that all questions are answered with 100% certainty and without doubt. That will require further testing on those with 4Runner of the different years, weight, gearing, tire sizes, location, etc. A lot falls into it especially with all the different routes in modifications we choose to make to our rigs. Thanks for your time and I will update this as soon as I can answer those questions

 

[THESS]

A bit of confusion here. Many of us have signed up for the Mag news letter a long time ago.. Are they planning to send the application to all newsletter subscribers?

Yes, all that submitted their email will get a response.

 

[THESS]

Also - you should consider dyno with the OEM crossover pipe and with an aftermarket one. The OEM crossover is pretty restrictive. What you see underneath in the flattened pipe is only the outer pipe - there's another one inside of that that's smaller diameter. So one bank is a bit more restricted than the other.

I'm really interested in this if it checks all the boxes. I was definitely a naysayer before I hear reports of it being a lot more powerful than the single VVTI version. If it's actually 350+hp at 5k rpms, i'm intrigued. As of now the best power option is a 2010 4cyl with a turbo. They reliably make 230rwhp under 5k rpms. I hope this gives an option to beat that.

This system makes very noticeable gains at a very safe 6lbs. As for the exact number, I cant release that just yet but what I can say is that it is a night and day difference in performance and well worth it. Numbers will be getting released soon.

 

[wfo9]

Can you tell us.

1. Is the stock fuel pump used?
2. Exactly how is the SC oiled? Where is the tap...

 

[THESS]

The problem is none of the tunes actually work - I've yet to see any repeatable dyno gains that are outside the margin of error. The Orange Virus tune had zero bump IIRC. The BD one is similar. Maybe a few hp on 91, but that's probably just the oem tune. Accessing the CAN signal is a far cry from rewriting the algorithm - if you could even figure out where in the memory you'd write it to and how the indexing of the memory is organized. There's a gap there that no one has solved to my knowledge.

This tune works, I can tell you that first hand. It has a very smooth power curve. It drove all the way to FJ from Southern California without a hiccup. I don't work for them I just come from a tuning background and been around it most of my life just in the car scene. Magnuson, as many of y'all know, has worked alongside TRD for many years. They have a close partnership. I understand the concern and worry for many have tried and it didn't work. Magnuson has got it figured out.

 

[THESS]

I'm happy to be made a believer. So we'll see what happens.

I know all will be made believers. Thanks for jumping on this thread. Cant wait to share more info

 

[flyboysgt]

Subbed for info and the chance to run one of these.


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[Jetboy]

[MENTION=139149]THESS[/MENTION] - thanks for all the answers! The ic placement sounds like it's about ideal for all our other "stuff" we like to block the radiator with. If it's behind the hardline it's going to have plenty of room. There's a lot of dead space in there. I was happy to see it wasn't on the lower radiator area where many turbo kits would mount.

 

[Sound_SS]

i submitted my email but have yet to receive any confirmation. is that normal?

 

[Scharfschütze]

i submitted my email but have yet to receive any confirmation. is that normal?

I got a confirmation of being added to their mailing list but didn't see anything about a beta test program.