Not safe in your Church either!
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alaskaman
Senior Member
sad. truly. having a weapon is only as useful as your position in relation to the criminal and your reaction time. terribly sad this and other stories like it. I would recommend that people study the steps of escalation in assaultive behavior. once trained it is much easier to spot a person who is about to reach the end step of the violence cycle. once you know it, you will be prepared to use the appropriate level of force. when I got to Anchorage my first patient was the victim of a rare assault in a local hospital. the gunman had killed one, and this woman was flown to anchorage, after several months here and Seattle she went home about 3 weeks ago......to attend church.
be prepared, be trained be ready. Guess you were right after all Thai.
be prepared, be trained be ready. Guess you were right after all Thai.
Atlanta_man
New member
Here in GA it is specifically (state law) illegal to have a gun in the church or it's parking lot. Sounds like a 1st amendment violation since it is making law with respect to what can be in a church.
Anyway churches like any other business or private property always have the right to ban guns from their property in GA.
Somebody in the church had a weapon (knife) and used it well.
Anyway churches like any other business or private property always have the right to ban guns from their property in GA.
Somebody in the church had a weapon (knife) and used it well.
Thai
Elite Member
Here is a link to a Church shooting where one of the church member had a gun: http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14817480/detail.html
Jeff Kleb
New member
I may be in the cynical side of the house, but it seems that most all of these "shootings" occur in places where law-abiding people are prohibited from carrying firearms for self-defense.
Look at how many places are part of the carnage: shopping malls, schools, restaurants, college campuses, churches, parks, anti-gun cities, etc., etc.
Can't say I recall too many incidents of a shooter taking out a half-dozen folks at a gun show.
:bash:
Criminals always prefer unarmed victims!
...just adding a link w/ pictures...
Gunman Kills Pastor In Illinois Church
http://news.aol.com/article/illinois-church-shooting/374149
Gunman Kills Pastor In Illinois Church
http://news.aol.com/article/illinois-church-shooting/374149
alaskaman
Senior Member
the assault cycle has distinct stages
1. tense speech, rapid eye movements, gesturing use of profanity.
2. yelling, shouting, threatening gestures.
3. quiet methodical, outburst is imminent.
4. act of violence.
interrupting the assault cycle is typically accomplished by
1. leaving yourself an exit.
2. showing the individual your hands open so that they are not holding a weapon.
3. talking in a low slow and steady way without sudden movements.
4. not making threats or making judgements.
typically in an unarmed person these steps work, however with an armed person there is no luxury and deescalation does not work as well. best plan with an armed person if you are confronted with that situation is fire from cover.
if anyone has a link to this information that would be great, this is just from my own training.
1. tense speech, rapid eye movements, gesturing use of profanity.
2. yelling, shouting, threatening gestures.
3. quiet methodical, outburst is imminent.
4. act of violence.
interrupting the assault cycle is typically accomplished by
1. leaving yourself an exit.
2. showing the individual your hands open so that they are not holding a weapon.
3. talking in a low slow and steady way without sudden movements.
4. not making threats or making judgements.
typically in an unarmed person these steps work, however with an armed person there is no luxury and deescalation does not work as well. best plan with an armed person if you are confronted with that situation is fire from cover.
if anyone has a link to this information that would be great, this is just from my own training.
Jordan Petry
New member
That's sad, I live in the suburbs of St. Louis and It seems everytime I turn on the news something terrible has happened. I want to live somewhere where there aren't murders/robberies everyday.
Thai
Elite Member
alaskaman said:
Yeah, good luck finding an UNarmed attacker these days....
Not to belittle what you said, but your "training" mainly deals with people in a controlled environment (say, hospital or mental institution)...ain't gonna help you much in the real world where violence does not need a reason, but is just a random act. There is no reasoning with these people...they don't give a rat's ass about what comes out of your mouth! In fact, most of the time, by opening your mouth, you will get killed sooner!
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Thai
Elite Member
alaskaman said:
Well, i would not get too comfortable with your verbal talkdown training...the random violence is spreading to the medical fields: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090329/ap_on_re_us/nursing_home_shooting
CARTHAGE, N.C.
alaskaman
Senior Member
And again...........
I am happy to agree with you Thai. It is important to be ready to deal with violence which many times comes "out of the blue" as in today's tragic mayhem in New York.
When an individual arrives having escalated through the aggression cycle there is nothing to be done except fire from cover if you can. Today's tragedy is a classic example of a premeditated rampage. The man blocked the rear door with his car and entered the front firing. Perhaps a person would have one to two seconds to drop aim and fire. That takes a lot of practice and training. I doubt that many of us have that degree of training. I know that I dont. That said, I am the first to say that remaining aware of your surroundings is the best defense. If you were watching the front of that building and you say this maniac coming you would have an advantage.
"Senseless" in the words of Obama today. I would add terribly sad.
I am happy to agree with you Thai. It is important to be ready to deal with violence which many times comes "out of the blue" as in today's tragic mayhem in New York.
When an individual arrives having escalated through the aggression cycle there is nothing to be done except fire from cover if you can. Today's tragedy is a classic example of a premeditated rampage. The man blocked the rear door with his car and entered the front firing. Perhaps a person would have one to two seconds to drop aim and fire. That takes a lot of practice and training. I doubt that many of us have that degree of training. I know that I dont. That said, I am the first to say that remaining aware of your surroundings is the best defense. If you were watching the front of that building and you say this maniac coming you would have an advantage.
"Senseless" in the words of Obama today. I would add terribly sad.
Thai
Elite Member
Re: And again...........
Depending on where you are in the incident, i would think that you have more than 1-2 seconds. It is all about retreating/protecting your family and finding cover first. The bottom line is that i rather have something to defend myself rather than not...whether i get the chance to use it or not is not a problem...at least, i had a fighting chance given the right circumstance or luck. Having nothing is nothing under any light. Talking or "interrupting the assault cycle" ain't gonna work...so, you are still left with nothing.
Sorry, i rather be armed and not need it rather than be not armed and needing it at the worst time. You (and your manly colleagues as you implied in the past) apparently don't need it...so, good luck. BTW, i don't tell people that i am carrying...so, i am sure that your friends and colleagues are indeed packing and not sharing that info with you.
alaskaman said:
Depending on where you are in the incident, i would think that you have more than 1-2 seconds. It is all about retreating/protecting your family and finding cover first. The bottom line is that i rather have something to defend myself rather than not...whether i get the chance to use it or not is not a problem...at least, i had a fighting chance given the right circumstance or luck. Having nothing is nothing under any light. Talking or "interrupting the assault cycle" ain't gonna work...so, you are still left with nothing.
Sorry, i rather be armed and not need it rather than be not armed and needing it at the worst time. You (and your manly colleagues as you implied in the past) apparently don't need it...so, good luck. BTW, i don't tell people that i am carrying...so, i am sure that your friends and colleagues are indeed packing and not sharing that info with you.
Thai
Elite Member
RonMAIDEN said:
To be honest, if i had a property or a store, then i DEFINITELY want CHL people to carry their weapon in my store!!!! A pastor was actually in my CHL class and he wants all of CHL people to carry in his church!!
Citizens with CHL (conceal handgun license) have thoroughly been investigated by the state and federal authorities and have been properly instructed on when and how to use their weapon...they are law-abiding citizens to the fullest!
Trust me, they wanted every damn info on me when i applied! (Looking back, i am now happy that they were so thorough.)This is why some recommend that you show your CHL during a routine traffic stop to the cop even if you're not carrying a weapon...this will assure the cop that your background has been checked and you are in good-standing with the law.
alaskaman
Senior Member
if you think you would have longer than one or two seconds you could be dead wrong. that one to two is a luxury. most crimes like this are instant and virtually no time is allowed victims esp. if your back is to the door and this maniac comes in blazing.......
I am not sure I get the capital A thing of the other poster.
Anyway, sounds like training in how to get comfortable with a handgun is the thing so you react as a trained individual not from the seat of your pants. "dont' want daisies where your cinch belt oughta be."
I am not sure I get the capital A thing of the other poster.
Anyway, sounds like training in how to get comfortable with a handgun is the thing so you react as a trained individual not from the seat of your pants. "dont' want daisies where your cinch belt oughta be."
Atlanta_man
New member
Every state is different with it's laws. In GA it's not a CHL it is a Georgia Firearms License. Allows open or concealed carry. But you cannot carry in very many places due to the 'public gathering' law (an old Jim Crow era law to suppress the rights of a particular minority).
GA is a no training, pay your $24 and pass the FBI fingerprint check and you are good for 5 years. No central registry of license holders, kept at the county level only.
Some states require no license, and most states have a state law that supersedes local laws and ordinances related to firearms.
Bottom line, the laws (especially state and federal case law) are complex and tricky and rarely understood by the cops. Many unhappy outcomes in GA when you show your GFL when you don't have to. Some states require showing it.
some errors in this law compilation, but mostly correct:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
GA is a no training, pay your $24 and pass the FBI fingerprint check and you are good for 5 years. No central registry of license holders, kept at the county level only.
Some states require no license, and most states have a state law that supersedes local laws and ordinances related to firearms.
Bottom line, the laws (especially state and federal case law) are complex and tricky and rarely understood by the cops. Many unhappy outcomes in GA when you show your GFL when you don't have to. Some states require showing it.
some errors in this law compilation, but mostly correct:
http://www.handgunlaw.us/
