Panhard bar question

[JayRolla]

The adjustable panhard won't change your roll center at all, so you won't notice a difference in body roll. The problem with just an adjustable is it doesn't correct the panhard angle, which makes the rear end sway side to side as the suspension cycles. Try making a panhard lift bracket, see if you can notice a difference. You should be able reduce body roll and reduce panhard angle.


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Im saying I have not noticed this additional body roll after lifting. I only noticed it get wobbly a bit on the highway when hitting a bump at high speed. Since I aligned my rear it feels perfectly fine. Just trying to mention I have noticed zero added body roll with my angle off from the lift. What issue did you have that made you add the lift is what I'm getting at?

 

[AssBurns]

Im saying I have not noticed this additional body roll after lifting. I only noticed it get wobbly a bit on the highway when hitting a bump at high speed. Since I aligned my rear it feels perfectly fine. Just trying to mention I have noticed zero added body roll with my angle off from the lift. What issue did you have that made you add the lift is what I'm getting at?

Hahah my bad. Now re-reading your other post, I misread it.
I initially added a drop bracket when I lifted and hated all the body roll so I cut it off and went back to the stock mount. Once I went back to stock mount I noticed how much sway I had going down the highway with the panhard being at an angle now. I decided I had to change something because both of those options sucked. So I made the lift bracket to help level the panhard to reduce the highway sway. I still get some sway because it's only 1.25" lift but it helped reduce it. I wish I could raise it a couple more inches but that would become a much bigger project than I want right now.


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[JayRolla]

Hahah my bad. Now re-reading your other post, I misread it.
I initially added a drop bracket when I lifted and hated all the body roll so I cut it off and went back to the stock mount. Once I went back to stock mount I noticed how much sway I had going down the highway with the panhard being at an angle now. I decided I had to change something because both of those options sucked. So I made the lift bracket to help level the panhard to reduce the highway sway. I still get some sway because it's only 1.25" lift but it helped reduce it. I wish I could raise it a couple more inches but that would become a much bigger project than I want right now.


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Okay thans for the info. I used to have the exact same issue. I found it was the rear sway bar being removed. You have your rear sway bar removed?

If so I believe your compensating that roll with raising the bar. With the rear sway bar installed. Rear panhard bar adjusted, rear sway bar lift brackets and 1" extended links I get zero body roll or sway on the highway. I still think this lift/drop bracket on panhard bar is not needed after my results and talking with Steve at Sonoron Steel.

 

[AssBurns]

I've used my sway bar with extended links with all the different scenarios I've tried. Now that I've done the lift bracket I don't run a sway bar at all anymore. When I had the drop bracket, the sway bar made a big difference. With the lift bracket, the sway bar isn't as noticeable and when off-roading the sway bar causes a rougher ride.


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[JayRolla]

I've used my sway bar with extended links with all the different scenarios I've tried. Now that I've done the lift bracket I don't run a sway bar at all anymore. When I had the drop bracket, the sway bar made a big difference. With the lift bracket, the sway bar isn't as noticeable and when off-roading the sway bar causes a rougher ride.


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I had major gas tank to driveshaft contact when removing sway bar and that was even with the stock bar pushing the axle further away from the gas tank. It was so bad that I would get a major bang just pulling into my driveway with a little speed.

Re adding my stock rear sway bar with extended links (oem rubber bushings to avoid bending rear links) and relocation brackets was the best modification ive done to date. Felt so unsafe on the highway without it.

 

[AssBurns]

Wow that's pretty wild to hear your driveshaft was hitting the gas tank that bad. Mine hits only at full flex. That's good to hear you got it resolved though.


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[killzone90]

Yep still a little confused but I'm just going to do what I think is right and hope

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[JayRolla]

Yep still a little confused but I'm just going to do what I think is right and hope

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It is a tough choice. LOL. I researched for days. Finally just said the hell with it and called up a few guys to talk. SS is the one who created the drop bracket. He is the one that talked me out of the drop bracket, lift bracket and to do just he panhard. After I did what he said the truck drives perfect.

 

[AssBurns]

I think if you can take anything from this, it would be to completely avoid the panhard drop bracket and stick with the other options.


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[MarkamisPrime]

I think if you can take anything from this, it would be to completely avoid the panhard drop bracket and stick with the other options.


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Why is that
I've installed many lift kits and all vehicles that have rear trac bars have drop brackets
Jeeps that I've lifted 2-3 inches have drop brackets
some 4inch kits depends on the kit manufacturer, and 6in have lift brackets
And most straight axle vehicles have drop brackets for the front trac bar also except some year jeeps have lift brackets
But all kits have brackets
I had the Toytec drop bracket on my old runner and it was a night and day difference with the 3in kit. That's why I got it again for this one
BDS was one of the company's I delt with a lot and those guys always rec a bracket over an adjustable trac bar because like someone stated above it puts everything back into the stock geometry and the adjustable bar just re centers your rear end.

 

[Myrunr2010]

Yep still a little confused but I'm just going to do what I think is right and hope

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I think that's your best option OP. After you do it you can come back and argue with everyone about why the way you chose to do it is right!

 

[fourfive]

So I'm using lc8 wraps in the rear, so should b around 3 inch lift. My question is after alot of research can't find a good awnser besides buy a adjustable one. We'll can't do that right now so what's my other options? What's the proper way to adjust the pan hard bar or know what length it needs to b

I'm just sharing my reasoning on why I decided on the adjustable bar from SS...

1. With my limited knowledge on suspension & all the "geometry factors" involved, the lift bracket (on the driver side) sounded better from what I read... but I didn't have enough information on this for me to feel comfortable going that route.

2. As far as the panhard bracket or adjustable panhard, I didn't want to do the drop or lift bracket because I didn't want to have anything welded on. I try to keep all my mods bolt on & try to avoid any mods that require cutting, pounding, trimming, etc. Aside from a lift and larger tires, I like the idea that my 4runner is still in its stock form. I realize I could cut the panhard bracket off if I changed my mind but I wanted to maintain as much of the "originalness" as possible.

3. I wanted an adjustable bar to center my axle & from what I was told by SS, the driveshaft hitting the gas tank is supposedly an issue of not running a rear sway bar & something about the rear shock length (don't remember exactly the details on that one). Whether that is true or not, I went with his word since he has more experience than me.

4. I went with SS adjustable panhard because he was able to answer all my questions. The couple other companies I contacted regarding an adjustable panhard never really gave me straight answers.

5. The main reason I went with SS adjustable panhard was I wanted one with bushings so it would be closer to the OEM configuration.



From the spec sheet I got with my adjustable panhard:
3" lift = 37 1/4" panhard length measured from center bolt hole

 

[AZBub]

hmmm, my axle hits the gas tank skid all the time. with no changes to anything to do with the panhard bar. i have 8 wraps and LC monroes. and i run a sway bar too.


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[AssBurns]

Why is that
I've installed many lift kits and all vehicles that have rear trac bars have drop brackets
Jeeps that I've lifted 2-3 inches have drop brackets
some 4inch kits depends on the kit manufacturer, and 6in have lift brackets
And most straight axle vehicles have drop brackets for the front trac bar also except some year jeeps have lift brackets
But all kits have brackets
I had the Toytec drop bracket on my old runner and it was a night and day difference with the 3in kit. That's why I got it again for this one
BDS was one of the company's I delt with a lot and those guys always rec a bracket over an adjustable trac bar because like someone stated above it puts everything back into the stock geometry and the adjustable bar just re centers your rear end.

The 2-3" kits come with drop brackets because there isn't quite enough room for a good length lift bracket to fit. Usually a 2-3" lift doesn't extend the bumps so stock clearance is an issue. With a 6" lift they usually have longer shocks, and most people run larger tires, which needs extended bumps without extra work. With extended bumps you now have more room to add a lift bracket. The front is a whole different ball game. You want the trac bar to be in line with the drag link to avoid bump steer, so you are limited in options when it comes to brackets on specific model vehicles. If you have OTK steering or Hi-steer you can add a lift bracket to keep your trac bar in line with your drag link. Still a lift bracket is better than a drop bracket in most offroad applications, especially when in off camber situations. Look at most rock crawlers, they usually have very high axle side mounts. Moon buggies typically have very high panhard/tracbars to help raise roll axis as much as possible.


Project BeerRunner - http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/206385-assburns-2000-limited-build-thread.html

 

[AssBurns]

Here is a good article on how panhard bar location and angles effect handling on vehicles. It's aimed mostly at track bars but can still be applied to our vehicles.
http://kb.fmiracing.com/caster-camber-setup-document/roll-center-explained


Project BeerRunner - http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/206385-assburns-2000-limited-build-thread.html

 

[Renton4runner]

So it sounds like there are 4 options.

1. Leave everything alone. This results in misalignment of the rear axel causing it to be shifted to one side.
2. Lift the front of the panhard bar. Problem is that you can really go up only an inch or so without increasing the size of your bump stop and thereby limiting flex.
3. Drop the rear of the panhard bar. This causes an increase in the COG for the vehicle.
4. Use the adjustable panhard from SS. The problem with this route is that everyone complains about the bar hitting their gas tank.

Am I missing any other options? Given the above I still think that option 3 is the best option. It seems like the lesser of the 4 evils. I really don't like the idea of the bar banging around against my gas tank, I don't want to limit flex, and leaving it as is sucks for a big lift in the rear.

 

[Renton4runner]

Has the guy at SS ever addressed the issue of the pan hard banging the gas tank? Ive seen several posts from him on the topic, but not one that addresses this specific issue.

 

[AssBurns]

So it sounds like there are 4 options.



1. Leave everything alone. This results in misalignment of the rear axel causing it to be shifted to one side.

2. Lift the front of the panhard bar. Problem is that you can really go up only an inch or so without increasing the size of your bump stop and thereby limiting flex.

3. Drop the rear of the panhard bar. This causes an increase in the COG for the vehicle.

4. Use the adjustable panhard from SS. The problem with this route is that everyone complains about the bar hitting their gas tank.



Am I missing any other options? Given the above I still think that option 3 is the best option. It seems like the lesser of the 4 evils. I really don't like the idea of the bar banging around against my gas tank, I don't want to limit flex, and leaving it as is sucks for a big lift in the rear.

Option 1: Obviously not a good option for obvious reasons

Option 2: Raises RC and levels the panhard bar. Since most people that have lifts, run extended travel shocks which require extended bumps to stop the shock from over compressing. But not all people run extended bumps. It also pushes the drive shaft closer to the gas tank which can be an issue for some people.

Option 3: Not quite a bad option but it lowers the RC too much and causes too much body roll. Actually keeps the driveshaft from hitting the gas tank more than stock. If combined with option 2 by splitting the difference will keep the RC the same.

Option 4: Centers the axle, keeps RC the same, but pushes the driveshaft into the gas tank and doesn't correct the panhard angle.

Best option in my opinion would be to raise the axle side as much as possible without hitting the crossmember then dropping the frame side to get the panhard angle level. But it also requires the most work. If you want something bolt on and easy then just do the adjustable. If you are able to fab up brackets then do the lift and drop to help raise RC, level panhard bar, keep driveshaft from hitting gas tank too much. Raising the RC just a little bit goes a long ways, so keep that in mind.



Project BeerRunner - http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/206385-assburns-2000-limited-build-thread.html

 

[fourfive]

I may be mistaken because it's been a while since I researched the panhard issue in depth but I seem to remember the driveshaft hitting the gas tank skid issue occurring in stock configuration, with drop bracket, & adjustable. It didn't seem specific to a particular set up. There wasn't much information regarding the lift bracket on the driver side at the time I was looking into it a few years ago so not sure about any specifics on that.

 

[D Farms]

there are three solutions to the gas tank issue. extend the bump stops. or panhard drop. the adjustable panhard. obviously only.extend thd bumps if you habe tire rubbing issues or very very long shocks like 17+ compressed. the panhard drop causes the axle to swing away from the gas tank. adjust your panhard to be shorter to avoid gas tank contact, this is dumb, very very dumb.

my rule of thumb: do a panhard lift bracket 1"+ the size of thd bump stop extension you have. then use panhard drop to make the panhard flat with the ground. no adjustable panhard.

also a zbar doesnf do shit its just marketing to make it look like its flat, suspension links work from point to point not ths path of the link.

also id like to point out that it is important to have a flat panhard bar. when the bar sits flaf your up and down travel has very little side to side movement, the body very midly oscillates from straight to turning right. however as the angle increases so does the side to side movement, and it also induces a change in the thrust angle. when the suspension droops is forces the body to turn right, then under compression it turns left.

interesting tidbit: when thd panhard is flat it averages out to always forcing the truck to turn right, this is because in japan the roads are rhd and when the road is rough that oscillation actually helps you stay on the crowned road just like having more caster on the passenger side does. obviiusly they were lazy and didnt swap the panhadd bar over.