Panhard bar question

[AssBurns]

[MENTION=118730]AssBurns[/MENTION] that pic makes me horny. Didn't you trim/reweld your quarter to give you more room? I'm thinking that's another tip I need to take from you/your rig. With my wheels being pretty high BS(5", but 9" wide), I think I could do the same. Stuff more, without looking cut out(cause our flares hide it).

I trimmed the fender and bumper a little to get the tires to clear but just barely. Nothing crazy. The tires actually tucked perfectly under the fender. I did end up trimming them further recently to make more room for 35's. Also yes I did trim the rear quarters when I was building by bumper but that didn't do anything for tire clearance.
Do it. You won't regret it once you get the added travel and upgraded shocks.


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[Tyler James Inc]

Really? I guess I'm remembering wrong. Either way, I would like to trim my quarter/inner skin seam to give me more clearance. Full bump front & rear on factory bumps, as well as lock to lock clearance on 315's would be awesome. Ideally, stock(leveled) height [emoji1383] I don't think that will happen(actually going to stock height), but no more than 2".

 

[AssBurns]

That's my plan also. I'd like to be able to basically drive at full bump with no rubbing. When I broke my shock and lost my bump stop a few weeks ago, I was barely rubbing where the intake was. Now that will be prettt difficult with the 315 MTR's but I'll make it work somehow. My biggest concern is all that EVAP shit above the wheel wells and intake box may need to be relocated. Battery is already about to be moved over a few inches.


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[jkeith.w]

Sounds like the LCAs with the BJ moved forward that Tyler James Inc and I have been discussing would be helpful for you also...

 

[AssBurns]

Sounds like the LCAs with the BJ moved forward that Tyler James Inc and I have been discussing would be helpful for you also...

Why move the LCA forward more? There is already plenty of caster. Maybe move both upper and lower but then CV's could bind at turn and droop.


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[Tyler James Inc]

[MENTION=118730]AssBurns[/MENTION] you're the only guy I've heard with a 3rd gen say "There is already plenty of caster"
What's your current camber and caster specs? And why would the CV's bind if you moved them forward- say 1"?

 

[AssBurns]

[MENTION=118730]AssBurns[/MENTION] you're the only guy I've heard with a 3rd gen say "There is already plenty of caster"
What's your current camber and caster specs? And why would the CV's bind if you moved them forward?

I have my caster maxed out and still running stock UCA for now. Since I've maxed out my caster, I don't feel enough bite in the turns when off-roading like I used to. I'll be backing down the caster a little. I don't know what my camber is at the moment and I'm sure it's changed since last alignment. I'll let you know next week when I get it aligned after the rear links and tie rods.
CV's will bind if you aren't keeping them aligned with the differential. If you push the wheel forward then at full lock it will have a higher angle one direction and a lesser angle the other. At full droop and full lock right now, the CV's are already pushing there limit when on the throttle.

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[Tyler James Inc]

CV's will bind if you aren't keeping them aligned with the differential. If you push the wheel forward then at full lock it will have a higher angle one direction and a lesser angle the other. At full droop and full lock right now, the CV's are already pushing there limit when on the throttle.

Maxed out caster on our rigs- with stock UCA and 3" lift- is only around +1.2* or so. That's with the camber at 0. Don't even think about trying to get -.5* camber, cause it ain't happening. Recommended caster spec for our rigs is something like +1.5*-3.5*. Personally, I would like to see +3-4* caster, and -.5* camber. With UCA's, you can have the caster corrected, but that puts your tire closer to your already-needing-to-be-tubbed firewall.
I can't accept what you're saying about CV binding. If that were the case, the stock range-of-adjustment on the LCA would cause binding. Going from max caster to minimum caster with the LCA adjusters moves the LBJ more than 1" already, so having it "not aligned with the diff" shouldn't cause binding.

 

[AssBurns]

Wow that's some good info. I didn't know the caster was that low. Maybe it has to do with my camber then. I haven't looked far into the situation but I noticed it right after adjusting my castor.


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[AssBurns]

Also if you are only moving the LBJ a little bit to gain a couple degrees more castor. That shouldn't effect CV angles very much like you said. I was thinking you guys wanted to move the LBJ like 2"+ to gain clearance between the tire and firewall. Idk what made me think that much difference but that's what I was thinking.


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[jkeith.w]

With UCA's, you can have the caster corrected, but that puts your tire closer to your already-needing-to-be-tubbed firewall.

Right; this is what we're looking to correct with the LCA - move the lower BJ forward instead of the upper BJ rearward (aftermarket UCAs.) I've read where several people have adjusted their SPC arm upper BJs back to the zero position (full forward) to get firewall clearance - so it stands to reason that if we move the lower BJ forward 2 degrees (that's opposite the 2 degree base setting on the SPC upper arm) then in addition to correcting for caster we're also building in firewall clearance for larger diameter tires, right?

I can't accept what you're saying about CV binding. If that were the case, the stock range-of-adjustment on the LCA would cause binding. Going from max caster to minimum caster with the LCA adjusters moves the LBJ more than 1" already, so having it "not aligned with the diff" shouldn't cause binding.

We'd need to verify that we don't exceed the range of motion designed into the CVs during the steering sweep, of course. I suspect that it will be just fine, but any spec data on the factory CVs would be helpful.

 

[jkeith.w]

I was thinking you guys wanted to move the LBJ like 2"+ to gain clearance between the tire and firewall.

How much distance is needed to clear? How far do folks usually tub?

 

[JayRolla]

How much distance is needed to clear? How far do folks usually tub?

Not much needs removed. Here is a good thread.

http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/154043-my-experience-trimming-35s.html

 

[Tyler James Inc]

but I noticed it right after adjusting my castor.

I'm interested to see what your specs are. Specs are one thing, but what really matters is how it feels/behaves for YOU. And, of course, good tire wear. My caster is real low right now(tech didn't listen to me when I told him to get as much caster as possible, without going positive on camber), and it wanders SO bad on the highway. It wanders more now than when I eye-balled it after doing my LCA bushings.
Yeah, not going extreme on the LCA's forward movement. Just want to correct caster without shoving the tire further back(like UCA's do). Getting more firewall clearance is an added bonus, for sure. To me, it would make sense to make the LCA where you COULD adjust up to +5* of caster- just to leave room for adjustment- but most would want to keep it more in the mid-range of ~3*.

 

[JayRolla]

Right; this is what we're looking to correct with the LCA - move the lower BJ forward instead of the upper BJ rearward (aftermarket UCAs.) I've read where several people have adjusted their SPC arm upper BJs back to the zero position (full forward) to get firewall clearance - so it stands to reason that if we move the lower BJ forward 2 degrees (that's opposite the 2 degree base setting on the SPC upper arm) then in addition to correcting for caster we're also building in firewall clearance for larger diameter tires, right?


We'd need to verify that we don't exceed the range of motion designed into the CVs during the steering sweep, of course. I suspect that it will be just fine, but any spec data on the factory CVs would be helpful.

SPC arms full forward. LCA'S maxed. Small tub up front. You will clear 35s just fine. I hAve 1.7* caster. I've ran as much as 5* caster without much change in drive ability. 1.5" body lift IMO also helps stop the 35"s from slamming into your front fenders and bending them.

 

[JayRolla]

I'm interested to see what your specs are. Specs are one thing, but what really matters is how it feels/behaves for YOU. And, of course, good tire wear. My caster is real low right now(tech didn't listen to me when I told him to get as much caster as possible, without going positive on camber), and it wanders SO bad on the highway. It wanders more now than when I eye-balled it after doing my LCA bushings.
Yeah, not going extreme on the LCA's forward movement. Just want to correct caster without shoving the tire further back(like UCA's do). Getting more firewall clearance is an added bonus, for sure. To me, it would make sense to make the LCA where you COULD adjust up to +5* of caster- just to leave room for adjustment- but most would want to keep it more in the mid-range of ~3*.

SPC upper control arms also have full camber adjustment along with caster. You can fully max the lca's and use the spcs to tune in the camber.

 

[Tyler James Inc]

SPC upper control arms also have full camber adjustment along with caster. You can fully max the lca's and use the spcs to tune in the camber.
SPC arms full forward. LCA'S maxed. Small tub up front. You will clear 35s just fine. I hAve 1.7* caster. I've ran as much as 5* caster without much change in drive ability. 1.5" body lift IMO also helps stop the 35"s from slamming into your front fenders and bending them.

Wow, that's crazy you didn't notice much drivability difference with +5*. Mine tracked better with just like .5+ more than I have now!
Everyone has their opinion on what works best, or how they want to get to where their going. Much of this is personal preference.
The only way I would ever do a BL on my rig would be to fit a UZ swap- and even then, it would be a 1/2-1". It's just not for me.
In my opinion, the SPC arms are definitely the best option out right now to correct the alignment, for sure. I just can't bring myself to shove my tire back. Tubbing isn't a big deal to me, and it really doesn't matter if it's a big or small tub. I'm well aware I have a different stance than most when it comes to how I like to do things, but I'm pretty stubborn, and this LCA arm idea just seems right.
Wait [MENTION=50342]JayRolla[/MENTION] - Where have you seen the SPC arms have camber adjustment? The arms I've seen are strictly caster, but having the caster corrected up top lets you have more room to use the lower adjusters to get camber tuned.
http://www.spcalignment.com/instructions/25480-INS_WEB.pdf
That claims they can adjust camber, but I think it's misleading. If they are camber adjustable, why do the different settings only show caster specs?

 

[JayRolla]

Wow, that's crazy you didn't notice much drivability difference with +5*. Mine tracked better with just like .5+ more than I have now!
Everyone has their opinion on what works best, or how they want to get to where their going. Much of this is personal preference.
The only way I would ever do a BL on my rig would be to fit a UZ swap- and even then, it would be a 1/2-1". It's just not for me.
In my opinion, the SPC arms are definitely the best option out right now to correct the alignment, for sure. I just can't bring myself to shove my tire back. Tubbing isn't a big deal to me, and it really doesn't matter if it's a big or small tub. I'm well aware I have a different stance than most when it comes to how I like to do things, but I'm pretty stubborn, and this LCA arm idea just seems right.

It would be pretty cool to do a LCA upgrade. I can't wait to see if you come up with something. Only thing I would be worried about is clearing the front of fender and some other stuff moving the LCA forward that much.

I literally felt zero change at 5* for tracking and driving other than the steering returns so fast it felt it could break my hand after a right turn. Lol. I had it aligned at that and drove it for months till the rubbing drove me nuts. I literally spent 30 days after that fine tuning the control arms. I tried all settings on the arms. Was aligned at 5*, 4*, 3* and now 1.7*. It drives perfect now. Clears my old 305s at full stuff and lock with zero rub.

 

[Tyler James Inc]

Me too man! It won't be possible without Keith's smarts and resources to make it happen, so we'll see [emoji1374]
Oh, well having hand-breaking return-to-center is far from feeling zero change [emoji23] I guess it's something we'll just have to see once we have it on a vehicle.

 

[AssBurns]

After thinking a little more about how castor and camber angles are changed. I think my understeer is probably effected more by the camber changing rather than castor. A few degrees of castor should help increase negative camber in turns, which sounds like a good think but if adding positive camber is the outcome then that might be my issue with understeer. I haven't looked too far into this subject, but from my understanding you would want a little negative camber for cornering to increase your tires contact patch and castor will help straight line stability and increase negative camber while cornering. I never really though too much about this subject until now. Correct me if I'm wrong though.


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