Quick timing belt question with PICS

[jeremyc74]

I The marks on the belt are an aid to getting it right the first time, but they are not indispensable. .

That's not true. The marks are there because to get the timing exactly right there HAS to be an exact number of teeth between the crank and the first cam, and the first cam and the second cam. The belt is more precise than lining up the timing marks on the pulleys. There is absolutely no logical reason those marks on the belt shouldn't line up. If the marks on the belt don't line up at all three points, then you're off a tooth somewhere. Period.

 

[TheDurk]

That's not true. The marks are there because to get the timing exactly right there HAS to be an exact number of teeth between the crank and the first cam, and the first cam and the second cam. The belt is more precise than lining up the timing marks on the pulleys. There is absolutely no logical reason those marks on the belt shouldn't line up. If the marks on the belt don't line up at all three points, then you're off a tooth somewhere. Period.

Nothing you said makes my statement untrue. I can get it exactly right with or without belt marks. You can't do better than exactly right.

And I have less than complete confidence in TRANSFERRED beltmarks. That is quite easy to get wrong.

 

[jeremyc74]

Nothing you said makes my statement untrue. I can get it exactly right with or without belt marks. You can't do better than exactly right.

And I have less than complete confidence in TRANSFERRED beltmarks. That is quite easy to get wrong.

If it's exactly right, the marks will line up. If they don't line up, then something is off. The marks indicate a specific number of teeth between the pulleys. If you have it right, they line up, if they don't, you're off. It can't happen both ways. Either they line up and it's good, or they don't and it's not right. There's no room for debate here. That's the SOLE purpose of those marks.

As far as the transferred marks, it would take an idiot to get the transfers off by an entire tooth. When the belt is going back on the same motor and pulleys that the marks were made on, it should go back on EXACTLY like it came off.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

I thought the marks were just for a added visual confirmation for the timing marks on the engine. Some belts don't even come with the marks. Also, after the first 360 degree turn of the CS to check the timing marks, the belt marks never line up. It's easy to tell if your off by a tooth after doing the 720 degree CS turn. Once you get it right, pull the pin.

 

[stir_fry_boy]

If it's exactly right, the marks will line up. If they don't line up, then something is off. The marks indicate a specific number of teeth between the pulleys. If you have it right, they line up, if they don't, you're off. It can't happen both ways. Either they line up and it's good, or they don't and it's not right. There's no room for debate here. That's the SOLE purpose of those marks.

As far as the transferred marks, it would take an idiot to get the transfers off by an entire tooth. When the belt is going back on the same motor and pulleys that the marks were made on, it should go back on EXACTLY like it came off.

I get timing belts exactly correct with or without marks. Look at Hondas timing belts, they don't have marks at all. Just take the old belt off and put a new one on. It's not hard, the 1/2 tooth trick works awesome.

I've tried to get the transferred marks on, it never works because if a cam moves slightly, you won't be able to get the belt back on with the marks you made again. With transferred marks you are trying to line up 6 different positions, instead of slapping the belt on with the cams and crank lined up. I personally think it's harder to line up 6 marks than 3.

Have you ever had a cam move independently on you like 1/4 turn? Try to get it exactly right again. It's not worth the trouble. Line up the marks on the block and heads, put the belt on in the correct order and it will be right.

 

[azcat90]

New Belt

This job is way, way too much work to just slap the old belt back on there. Buy the Aisin kit and replace everything.

 

[jeremyc74]

I get timing belts exactly correct with or without marks. Line up the marks on the block and heads, put the belt on in the correct order and it will be right.

You're just wrong here. You can do it without the marks, but if you have the marks and they aren't line up, it's wrong. Period. There is no scenario where the mark would be right on the crank and not match up on the cams. It's impossible. The marks denote a specific number of teeth between the crank and the cams, and if they don't line up you're not where you're supposed to be.

 

[TheDurk]

If it's exactly right, the marks will line up. If they don't line up, then something is off. The marks indicate a specific number of teeth between the pulleys. If you have it right, they line up, if they don't, you're off. It can't happen both ways. Either they line up and it's good, or they don't and it's not right. There's no room for debate here. That's the SOLE purpose of those marks.

As far as the transferred marks, it would take an idiot to get the transfers off by an entire tooth. When the belt is going back on the same motor and pulleys that the marks were made on, it should go back on EXACTLY like it came off.

So, are you saying you just line up with the marks on the belt, pull the pin and then you don't do the final check after you rotate the crank 720°? If so, I do not want you working on my engine.

I would submit that the SOLE purpose of those marks is to help you get the hard marks right, because those are the only things that matter after the crank turns from the initial position. However, that is not the point I was making. I was just saying you can get it right either way. You can. You said that was untrue. It's not. The intent of the engineers who made the marks is irrelevant. You have been arguing with a point I didn't make.

 

[Philbush1127]

thank you durk for your help without criticizing me i appreciate it when i go home to jersey to visit family we should go wheeling up at my farm. i have 65 acres right by spruce run

 

[TheDurk]

thank you durk for your help without criticizing me i appreciate it when i go home to jersey to visit family we should go wheeling up at my farm. i have 65 acres right by spruce run

I love that area. I have lots of friends out that way. I'm just a few exits down I-78. I'd love to see it.

 

[Philbush1127]

I love that area. I have lots of friends out that way. I'm just a few exits down I-78. I'd love to see it.

its for sale if you want it. 400k

 

[stir_fry_boy]

You're just wrong here. You can do it without the marks, but if you have the marks and they aren't line up, it's wrong. Period. There is no scenario where the mark would be right on the crank and not match up on the cams. It's impossible. The marks denote a specific number of teeth between the crank and the cams, and if they don't line up you're not where you're supposed to be.

The marks on the cams and crank with block and heads or the marks on the belt in relationship to the cams and crank?

 

[stir_fry_boy]

If you are talking about the belt marks in relationship to the cams and crank, in what world would that matter if the marks on the cams and crank line up with the heads and block after rotating the crank with the belt installed 720 degrees? Have you done any other timing belts except on a Toyota?

 

[jeremyc74]

So, are you saying you just line up with the marks on the belt, pull the pin and then you don't do the final check after you rotate the crank 720°? If so, I do not want you working on my engine.
.

Where the hell are you getting that from? I never said anything about not doing a final check on it.

What I said, is that when you install the belt, if the paint on the belt is lined up with one of the marks, it should be lined up with ALL of the marks.

The marks on the belt are there to denote a specific number of teeth between the crank and the cams. If they're not lined up, then you're in the wrong tooth. PERIOD.

If you can't grasp that concept then you shouldn't be working on your engine either.

 

[TheDurk]

Where the hell are you getting that from? I never said anything about not doing a final check on it.

What I said, is that when you install the belt, if the paint on the belt is lined up with one of the marks, it should be lined up with ALL of the marks.

The marks on the belt are there to denote a specific number of teeth between the crank and the cams. If they're not lined up, then you're in the wrong tooth. PERIOD.

If you can't grasp that concept then you shouldn't be working on your engine either.

The only thing I don't understand is why you keep repeating it. I never disputed it. I just said there is another way that works.

 

[Philbush1127]

The only thing I don't understand is why you keep repeating it. I never disputed it. I just said there is another way that works.

yeah i don't get what his deal is. i just think jeremy just like hearing himself talk. ound:

 

[jeremyc74]

The only thing I don't understand is why you keep repeating it. I never disputed it. I just said there is another way that works.

It didn't work in this case. If you go back and look at the pictures in the original post and think that belt is on right, you're blind. It's OBVIOUSLY off a tooth.

 

[TheDurk]

i will try to keep this short and sweet. i am reusing a timing belt with less than 3,000 miles on it. the original markings are all missing. when i removed the belt from the old motor i used a paint marker to mark the belt on the cam gears. the mark for the crankshaft gear is still there so i used that as my reference marking. but now the lines i made don't line up 100% i wanted to see what you guys think about it. i believe it should be fine

]

It didn't work in this case. If you go back and look at the pictures in the original post and think that belt is on right, you're blind. It's OBVIOUSLY off a tooth.

HE made the cam marks and is using the original crank mark. For this reason, the only reasonable approach is to disregard the belt marks and use the hard marks. The cams are perfect, although his paint mark is off by a tooth, they both line up fine on their hard marks. I can't see if the crank hard mark is at TDC or not, for sure. So it isn't OBVIOUSLY anything. If the crank is at TDC by the hard marks, it's perfect. In other words, if he can take a pic like the one below, he's golden, and the belt marks are irrelevant.

Hard marks are all that matters. Period.

 

[jeremyc74]

. In other words, if he can take a pic like the one below, he's golden, and the belt marks are irrelevant.
]

Give me ONE logical reason that the marks on the belt wouldn't go back on that engine in the EXACT same place they were when he took it off, unless it's a tooth off.

You put the marks on there to make sure you get it back on right, and then ignore them when they're telling you it's not. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in my life. Why bother with the marks in the first place if you're just going to ignore them?! :rockthrow:

The marks on the cams and the crank don't tell you if you have the right number of teeth between the two. That's the whole damn point for Toyota putting the marks on there in the first place!!

 

[TheDurk]

Give me ONE logical reason that the marks on the belt wouldn't go back on that engine in the EXACT same place they were when he took it off, unless it's a tooth off.

You put the marks on there to make sure you get it back on right, and then ignore them when they're telling you it's not. That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard of in my life. Why bother with the marks in the first place if you're just going to ignore them?! :rockthrow:

The marks on the cams and the crank don't tell you if you have the right number of teeth between the two. That's the whole damn point for Toyota putting the marks on there in the first place!!

Sigh. As I said before, I wouldn't have remarked a used belt as he did. It is not that easy to guarantee you get it right. You add a small error in the position of the shaft to a small error in the marking process and all of a sudden you are a tooth off. The whole point of the whole exercise is so the camshafts and crankshafts hit TDC at the same time. That is all that matters. And that is what the hard marks show. That is why everybody checks to see if the hard marks line up after a 720° turn of the crank even when using a belt marked at the factory. Don't you? If the two were in conflict, which would you believe? If you answer anything other than the hard marks, then I don't know what to say. Of course, after a 720° turn, the belt marks are out of sync forever, so you HAVE to rely on the hard marks.

There is really no point in continuing this discussion. I do think you should avoid the use of adjectives like 'dumb' and 'stupid' on this forum. This is a relatively polite place, and we should keep it that way.