Rear wheel bearing BS! Input appreciated

[dogtail]

Though it was the axle that was bent. Because I was getting vibrations. But turned out it was a loose pinion. But even if the axle was bent... it shouldn’t have play like this. I should remove the rim and drum and see if it has the same play.

This is driving me nuts. Brand new OEM bearing. I have two Koyo spare bearings. Same thing just not in Toyota box.

Ok, I thought before your wheel was wobbling. I had a bad pinion bearing myself, just did a full rear end rebuild this Summer.
Just thinking, if there was a bent axle on your rear end before, and the bend was causing the bearing to wobble therefore wearing out the cup enough to give the new bearing slop flop. Thats an oddball thing, but possible I guess. Seems easy enough to compare with other side, process of elimination.

 

[kolelt]

Took the spacers of for now. So no, did not have them. Although the new BREMBO drums with OEM pads are very hard to put on. I had to smash it with a dead blow to get them started!!!! So you guys might be on to something

I will definitely perform the test without the rim and drums.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

Although the new BREMBO drums with OEM pads are very hard to put on. I had to smash it with a dead blow to get them started!!!! So you guys might be on to something

Yeah, that does not sound right. The shoes should not be interfering with the drum while you're installing the drum, so if you're pounding the drum over the shoes, you got bigger problems.

And if you're pounding the drums over the centering part of the axle flange, then there is interference there or rust. The drums should slide easily onto the axle flange, and seat against it.

You're on the right track, keep looking.

 

[MarkamisPrime]

Right - I'm saying that the only way the tire can wiggle like that is if the drum is not seated on the flange, or the wheel is not seated against the drum. The bearing, no matter how loose or obliterated, cannot allow such wiggle.



Check that the drum is fully seated against the flat of the axle flange, and not caught on some ridge or shoulder on the centering protrusion of the axle flange.



Then check that the wheel is fully seated against the drum. It's nearly impossible to see this directly obviously, but when you mount the tire/wheel on the axle flange studs against the drum, it should be a very firm stop, yet the wheel should be able to rotate slightly back and forth against the drum (within the slop between the studs and the wheel holes). If you cannot rotate the wheel counter/clockwise at all, then something is jammed.

What are you talking about.
It’s a full floating drum.
If it was a semi floating set up I’d understand
But the drum literally just floats there the wheel is bolted to the studs that are on the axle not the drum like a trailer or some dually trucks.
And you can actually very clearly see if the wheels is sitting flush against the face of the drum.
To the OP.
I mean think about it and picture it in your head. What parts do what and how the system works.
Either something isn’t pressed correctly or a bearing has excessive play.
Short of his studs being loose (witch I have seen) its gotta be something is out of tolerance.
This happened to me one one of the first times I did this job.
The old bearing actually wore a very very minimal groove in the spot where it seats.
I thought nothing of it and finished the job.
but after it had play like what the OP is experiencing.
After over thinking it for a day. I took it apart and took it to my local machine shop.
He took it apart in front of me and he said that was my problem. The fit should be tighter than a dolphins blow hole.
We replaced the axle and no more issues.
No one knows what the axle actually looks like without any bearings or ring on it besides the op, but I’m willing to bet that’s probably the issue.
Aaaaand [MENTION=120071]mtbtim[/MENTION] don’t you remember the dude who showed up at your place with a blown up axle bearing.
His wheel was dangling, the only this holding his axle in was the backing plate bolts.

 

[MarkamisPrime]

Took the spacers of for now. So no, did not have them. Although the new BREMBO drums with OEM pads are very hard to put on. I had to smash it with a dead blow to get them started!!!! So you guys might be on to something

I will definitely perform the test without the rim and drums.

Hulk smash. Haha.
Why wouldn’t you have just de adjusted the pads a bit so that the drum slides in easily ???

 

[kolelt]

Hulk smash. Haha.
Why wouldn’t you have just de adjusted the pads a bit so that the drum slides in easily ???

The adjuster is all the way down. The max it can go. I’m not stupid. Have done this job before.

I’ve never had a blown rear wheel bearing. The axle shaft looks in good condition. The c-clip grove is exposed fully and c clip is there. But something is ****ed up. When I get free time I’ll trouble shoot by using other people’s ideas and come back with the result.

 

[mtbtim]

What are you talking about.
It’s a full floating drum.
If it was a semi floating set up I’d understand
But the drum literally just floats there the wheel is bolted to the studs that are on the axle not the drum like a trailer or some dually trucks.
And you can actually very clearly see if the wheels is sitting flush against the face of the drum.
To the OP.
I mean think about it and picture it in your head. What parts do what and how the system works.
Either something isn’t pressed correctly or a bearing has excessive play.
Short of his studs being loose (witch I have seen) its gotta be something is out of tolerance.
This happened to me one one of the first times I did this job.
The old bearing actually wore a very very minimal groove in the spot where it seats.
I thought nothing of it and finished the job.
but after it had play like what the OP is experiencing.
After over thinking it for a day. I took it apart and took it to my local machine shop.
He took it apart in front of me and he said that was my problem. The fit should be tighter than a dolphins blow hole.
We replaced the axle and no more issues.
No one knows what the axle actually looks like without any bearings or ring on it besides the op, but I’m willing to bet that’s probably the issue.
Aaaaand [MENTION=120071]mtbtim[/MENTION] don’t you remember the dude who showed up at your place with a blown up axle bearing.
His wheel was dangling, the only this holding his axle in was the backing plate bolts.

I've been following this from the start trying to help the OP get to the bottom of the problem. It seems very clear to me he did all the press work correctly. Now, could a brand new OEM bearing have that kind of slop? I guess if he got a bad bearing from the manufacturer.

In your situation Mark, how would the old inner bearing race create a groove on the axle? Were the tolerances off from the start and the bearing race was able to spin on the shaft creating that groove? It no makey no sense to me.

Now, in regards to the brakes, there's definitely no way you should have to pound on your brake drums. OP, do you have the OEM drums still? If you do, maybe you could just slip those on, bolt on the wheel and see where that gets you.

As for what [MENTION=198376]4Runner4Leon[/MENTION] is saying, it does makes sense to me. The end of the axle shaft is captured by the 3rd member. So, how would the tire wiggle like that with the end of the shaft captured? If the bearing was really bad, l could see how there could be gross movement. But, he's got new bearings.

Now, if the brake drum isn't seated all the way against the face of the drum and then he puts the wheel on, there could be an existing gap between the drum and face of the axle shaft if the tightening of the wheel didn't draw the dum fully against the face of the axle shaft. With the extra leverage of the wheel and him pushing and pulling on it, the drum could be rocking back and forth on the end of the axle shaft. That's my best guess.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

What are you talking about.
It’s a full floating drum.
If it was a semi floating set up I’d understand ...

I mean think about it and picture it in your head. What parts do what and how the system works.

Let's do that. Here is the picture of the rear axle:



How exactly can this axle flange rock back and forth as shown in the video? Even if you had tons, I mean TONS, of play in the outer bearing, the flange (and thus the tire and wheel) will move up or down, or in and out, a little - but it will never rock as shown in the video.

Now, look at the situation where the drum (precisely because it is floating) is not fully seated on the flange:



Now you can see how the rocking motion can develop.

Or if the drum is fully seated, but the wheel/tire is not, because it is caught on something:



Again, the tire and wheel will rock as shown.

Ain't basic physics great?

My bet is on the drum not being fully seated, I had a very similar issue with rotors that I thought were fully seated but had tons of runout - come to find out they were undersized, and binding on the shoulder.

 

[mtbtim]

Let's do that. Here is the picture of the rear axle:



How exactly can this axle flange rock back and forth as shown in the video? Even if you had tons, I mean TONS, of play in the outer bearing, the flange (and thus the tire and wheel) will move up or down, or in and out, a little - but it will never rock as shown in the video.

Now, look at the situation where the drum (precisely because it is floating) is not fully seated on the flange:



Now you can see how the rocking motion can develop.

Or if the drum is fully seated, but the wheel/tire is not, because it is caught on something:



Again, the tire and wheel will rock as shown.

Ain't basic physics great?

My bet is on the drum not being fully seated, I had a very similar issue with rotors that I thought were fully seated but had tons of runout - come to find out they were undersized, and binding on the shoulder.

Thanks for those illustrations. That's how I envisioned the movement happening after you first brought up the possibility of the brake drums or wheel fitment being the issue.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

Thanks for those illustrations. That's how I envisioned the movement happening after you first brought up the possibility of the brake drums or wheel fitment being the issue.

Yup, pictures always help.

I think people get thrown off when they see the backing plate rocking on the bearing before the axle is installed in the housing, and think that something is wrong with the bearing - but the outer bearing is not intended to prevent rocking on its own, it has to work in concert with the inner bearing, which is only engaged when the axle is installed in the differential housing.

 

[JRZEE2000TR4LTD]

I'll give my input, for what it's worth.

First of all imagine what the axle would do if NO bearing was installed. The axle would flop all over the place. It's the only thing that supports the axle at the hub.

Second, I've read this thread a few times. A couple things stand out to me that I did NOT experience in the 8 axles I've done. One is having to press the bearing at all into the hub. The bearing finds it's home in the bottom of the hub. The retainer then is pressed on until the groove is exposed then you put the c-clip in. I don't remember any slop but it shouldn't matter anyway as the raised shoulder on the axle housing is what holds the bearing in place not the retainer or clip. I hope that pressing on the bearing and hub didn't damage anything.

Third, I thought I read that the OP rebuilt the 3rd member. I'm not an expert on difs at all, but could any of the noise be coming from the dif. I know mine makes noise but I believe it's just gearlash.

 

[4Runner4Leon]

First of all imagine what the axle would do if NO bearing was installed. The axle would flop all over the place. It's the only thing that supports the axle at the hub.

That's the right way of thinking about it - pretend the bearing is not even there. And what the axle flange would do in that case is it will move up/down and in/out - but it would not rock as much as was shown in the video. Look at my illustrations above.

The OP can also pull up/down on the tire/wheel to see how much up/down play there is. I'm guessing there will be almost none, which would confirm that the bearing has nothing to do with the wiggling problem that he's observing.

 

[JZiggy]

Since Leon has busted out the whiteboard schematics here is my contribution. I didn't draw this and I forget the source but I found it helpful for understanding rear axle seal positioning. Should help us visualize how the rear bearing interfaces with everything else.

 

[kolelt]

I just want to say. The amount of support and knowledge on here and this thread is amazing. Truly makes me and I hope other members feel like they are not alone and can ask any question. Wether you are wrong or right. Just want to say thank you all for the information.

My vibration was a lose pinion bolt. Once we tighten it. The vibration went away but it started to whine. So I said **** it. Sent it to ECGS got it rebuilt. In the mean time. Decided to replace the wheel bearings and everything else. Such as brake pads OEM, brembo rotors. Couple other things.

I will do couple troubleshoots, photos and some videos. Come back with the results.

 

[mtbtim]

I just want to say. The amount of support and knowledge on here and this thread is amazing. Truly makes me and I hope other members feel like they are not alone and can ask any question. Wether you are wrong or right. Just want to say thank you all for the information.

I will do couple troubleshoots, photos and some videos. Come back with the results.

I agree. The sharing of knowledge is awesome and I enjoy learning from other people. There are a ton of very smart, knowledgeable and talented people that frequent this forum.

I laugh when people make blanket statements saying YouTube automotive videos are BS and you should avoid using them. I think the internet with forums like this and YouTube videos to consult have been a huge game changer with the sharing of information and enabling people to handle their own automotive work. We have come a long way from relying on a Chiltons manual or your cousin Joey to help you fix your rig. Many times, I feel the experts are guys like us and not the paid guys turning wrenches at shops. It was when I schooled one of the Toyota mechanics at my local dealer regarding the rear axle seal/bearing job that lead me to stop relying on shops for the more involved repairs and take things into my own hands.

 

[MarkamisPrime]

Let's do that. Here is the picture of the rear axle:







How exactly can this axle flange rock back and forth as shown in the video? Even if you had tons, I mean TONS, of play in the outer bearing, the flange (and thus the tire and wheel) will move up or down, or in and out, a little - but it will never rock as shown in the video.



Now, look at the situation where the drum (precisely because it is floating) is not fully seated on the flange:







Now you can see how the rocking motion can develop.



Or if the drum is fully seated, but the wheel/tire is not, because it is caught on something:







Again, the tire and wheel will rock as shown.



Ain't basic physics great?



My bet is on the drum not being fully seated, I had a very similar issue with rotors that I thought were fully seated but had tons of runout - come to find out they were undersized, and binding on the shoulder.

I smell what your stepping in

 

[kolelt]

Alright.... So I did some troubleshooting to the driver side. It looks like the axle has play in/out only. And not side to side.

First of, let say that I removed it and decided to put more pressure on the retainer that touches the bearing.

I use this made out of gas pipe from home depot.

Putting more force on the retainer. After that pressing the ABS ring with the other retainer.

C-clip in, notice the wheel bearing moved out of the bearing retainer by it self.

Photo of brakes.

Test1
https://youtu.be/17voHxZhxfQ

Test2
https://youtu.be/ja5wP6qjvt8

The passenger side does not move side to side.

 

[kolelt]

So the movement is in and out is that normal ? Or is there a issue somewhere ?

 

[mtbtim]

Every time I've pounded out the serrated backing plate bolts so I can get the bearing splitter under the ABS tone ring to pull it off, the bearing slides out of it's fully seated position. The bearing is not a press fit into that bearing case so what you're experiencing is COMPLETELY NORMAL.

Now, as for the amount of in and out play of the axle with a new bearing, I unfortunately have never tested it out after doing one of these jobs. There is obviously play in the new bearings. But, how much is normal, I don't know.

Were both those videos of the driver side or was the second video of the passenger side? If those were both the driver side and the passenger side doesn't have nearly the in and out play, I would say you just got a bad bearing and you should send it back for a replacement. All the additional force you're applying with the press is doing absolutely nothing. Like I said before, when the press loads up without further movement and the c-clip groove is exposed, you're done. More force is just going to give your arm a workout cranking the handle.

 

[kolelt]

Every time I've pounded out the serrated backing plate bolts so I can get the bearing splitter under the ABS tone ring to pull it off, the bearing slides out of it's fully seated position. The bearing is not a press fit into that bearing case so what you're experiencing is COMPLETELY NORMAL.

Now, as for the amount of in and out play of the axle with a new bearing, I unfortunately have never tested it out after doing one of these jobs. There is obviously play in the new bearings. But, how much is normal, I don't know.

Were both those videos of the driver side or was the second video of the passenger side? If those were both the driver side and the passenger side doesn't have nearly the in and out play, I would say you just got a bad bearing and you should send it back for a replacement. All the additional force you're applying with the press is doing absolutely nothing. Like I said before, when the press loads up without further movement and the c-clip groove is exposed, you're done. More force is just going to give your arm a workout cranking the handle.

Both videos were of driver side. The passenger side does not have in and out play.