Serious Frame Rust Questoin

[GB4Runne4]

Pictures should be attached. If not...I'll use photobucket or something.

I havent cleaned out rust before, so I'm somewhat concerned about being too rough as I chip away...forming more holes..etc. I guess I'll do that this weekend though to get a better idea of what I'm dealing with.

I'm not really familiar with J-B Weld - how long did you have to let it sit before refilling? Did it last long, or was it something you had to continually reapply every few weeks?

Seems like the best first step would be to chip away the rust and try J-B Weld. If that holds, cover it with POR-15. If not...try and actual weld. Having been through this..does that sound like a good plan, or is there anything else I could try (replacing axle aside)?

Thanks again for your help.

 

[Nelsonmd]

Yeah, that's pretty bad.

My advice is to go to home depot and pick up these 2 items
D28110 4-1/2 in. Angle Grinder-D28110 at The Home Depot
3 in. Knotted Cup Brush-DW4915 Y at The Home Depot

also getting some rubber gloves, face mask, and ear plugs are a good idea. Oh, and safety glasses are and absolute must.

Anyway, you spend under $100, get tools, and you can strip most of your axle housing of rust pretty quickly. That wire wheel will strip the rust pretty quick, but won't remove base metal. Your concern about being too rough is valid, but with the setup above, I wouldn't worry about it. Any holes there NEED to get uncovered, cleaned, and dealt with or they are just going to get alot worse.

Drain the housing completely before starting this, and jack the back end up from the frame to allow the axle to drop as much as possible (the higher the body, the more comfortable for you) and remove the spare. It will be alot easier if you remove the parking brake cable. You may brake off some of the mounting bolts, that's ok, you can get new ones (they are just standard M8's). Go at it with the angle grinder for a while til it is nice and shiny. Then around all the pinholes you find, clean with some degreaser to get any oil off it, sand it a little bit to rough the surface, then apply the JBweld. I used JBputty only to prevent any from flowing inside and I suggest using the putty on any sizable holes. Regular JBweld is probably fine for small holes if you prefer.

If you don't feel up for this amount of work, then you are going to fork over some serious money.

If you want to keep your 4runner alot longer, then you are going to have to start looking for a replacement axle housing, or pay for a welder to fix it (probably more expensive). No 2 ways around it.

BTW, when you do this fix, another couple items that are a good idea to get are a new filler plug and gasket, possibly a new drain plug and gasket (if your drain plug is badly corroded like your filler plug), and be sure you get POR-15 or similar paint to coat it afterwards. DO NOT LEAVE IT UNPAINTED. It'll rust right back up if you don't.

 

[GB4Runne4]

So...bit of an update:

Called a local automotive welder that a friend recommended. Told the guy what was happening, and his response was:

"Oh yeah...that pumpkin thing? I actually worked on those a few times...actually worked on a 4runner not too long ago with that problem. Can either spot weld it or weld a whole new plate onto the assembly and fix it entirely. Need to see it. Bring it on down and I can let you know."

Brought it to him and we got under to check it out. Said it was too weak for a spot weld, since the weight would probably end up creating a crack higher up and splitting the unit, and it looked as though there were two leaking spots. Instead, he could essentially create a whole new unit by welding a new plate onto the front, supported higher up where the metal was stronger/thicker.

Showed me pictures of the 4runner that he worked on previously. Had to do the same thing there. Looked pretty solid, but it creates a new shape to the unit, as the weld isnt contoured...so the area is flat and the plug areas are customized to fit...but it takes care of the problem and is a lasting solution. Shape isnt so different that it impacts any other function (brake lines, driveability, etc.). Added bonus is that, because the unit is now slightly larger (since the shape is different), it actually works as an auxiliary tank to hold a bit extra oil.

Best part is that it will be about $400 for the entire job. Whole lot better than $2k, and should last just as long (if not longer).

Will post pics when it's done. Probably next week.

 

[Singtoe]

What you have is terminal. You should replace the axle housing. The Weld might fix it for a little while but it will start leaking again. I would invest 400 in a car-part.com housing and just replace it.

Just my opinion though.

 

[Nelsonmd]

So...bit of an update:

Called a local automotive welder that a friend recommended. Told the guy what was happening, and his response was:

"Oh yeah...that pumpkin thing? I actually worked on those a few times...actually worked on a 4runner not too long ago with that problem. Can either spot weld it or weld a whole new plate onto the assembly and fix it entirely. Need to see it. Bring it on down and I can let you know."

Brought it to him and we got under to check it out. Said it was too weak for a spot weld, since the weight would probably end up creating a crack higher up and splitting the unit, and it looked as though there were two leaking spots. Instead, he could essentially create a whole new unit by welding a new plate onto the front, supported higher up where the metal was stronger/thicker.

Showed me pictures of the 4runner that he worked on previously. Had to do the same thing there. Looked pretty solid, but it creates a new shape to the unit, as the weld isnt contoured...so the area is flat and the plug areas are customized to fit...but it takes care of the problem and is a lasting solution. Shape isnt so different that it impacts any other function (brake lines, driveability, etc.). Added bonus is that, because the unit is now slightly larger (since the shape is different), it actually works as an auxiliary tank to hold a bit extra oil.

Best part is that it will be about $400 for the entire job. Whole lot better than $2k, and should last just as long (if not longer).

Will post pics when it's done. Probably next week.

That is great that he has worked on this issue before and can give you some real advice on it. That price sounds very fair for what he is doing should you go that route. But...

What you have is terminal. You should replace the axle housing. The Weld might fix it for a little while but it will start leaking again. I would invest 400 in a car-part.com housing and just replace it.

Just my opinion though.

I agree with Singtoe, and this is what ultimately led me to get a whole new housing. You have alot of rust on the rest of the axle housing too. It looks just like mine did, and as I cleaned it up I realized that there was alot of material loss. I didn't feel that comfortable with the control arm towers and some of the areas right around the pumpkin got pretty thin.

I would suggest doing the JB weld patch while you search for a used housing. If you end up choosing to have this guy weld a new pumpkin on, then I would still suggest not considering that a permanent fix and start looking for a replacement.

 

[foggysps]

File a complaint here @ NHTSA and get a campaign started.
Apparently Toyota is not going to step up and fix the issues unless they have enough complaints and the government feels that there are enough incidents to pose as a safety concern.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

Look on the Left hand column and click "File a Complaint"

My best recommendation to determine if your frame is actually rusting from the inside out is to probe inside the access holes (both sides) that are found along the frame rail and/or run a compressed air line inside to see if any big chunks of rust come flying out.
My frame looked totally fine until I further examined it. Major scaling on the inside. Outside looks perfect. Well, it seems that the inside rotted so bad that my inner frame rail on the passenger side near the rear track arm had almost rotted through. It is soft like a sponge, but yet the factory Toyota frame paint held it together. Poking it with my finger and it all crumbled

 

[Nelsonmd]

File a complaint here @ NHTSA and get a campaign started.
Apparently Toyota is not going to step up and fix the issues unless they have enough complaints and the government feels that there are enough incidents to pose as a safety concern.

https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

Look on the Left hand column and click "File a Complaint"

My best recommendation to determine if your frame is actually rusting from the inside out is to probe inside the access holes (both sides) that are found along the frame rail and/or run a compressed air line inside to see if any big chunks of rust come flying out.
My frame looked totally fine until I further examined it. Major scaling on the inside. Outside looks perfect. Well, it seems that the inside rotted so bad that my inner frame rail on the passenger side near the rear track arm had almost rotted through. It is soft like a sponge, but yet the factory Toyota frame paint held it together. Poking it with my finger and it all crumbled

Jeez, you are just making the rounds to every frame rust thread...

We have seen the NHTSA thing before, others have come through asking us to file complaints before. The reality here is that Toyota is very unlikely to issue a recall or buy back on vehicles this old. The issue with the tacoma frames came up much earlier than most of the 4runner frame issues do. What is the proper lifetime of a vehicle? 10 years? Rust problems after 10 years in areas with heavy salt usage is not really a problem, just maybe not impressive.

 

[foggysps]

Odd that the frame would rot out. But yet, brackets, floors even the shock absorbers have not rotted through. Even the rear mount for the shock which is notorious for collecting sand, salt, and water did not rot through. Toyota extended their recall for vehicles found to be driven in high salt conditions.

 

[Nelsonmd]

Odd that the frame would rot out. But yet, brackets, floors even the shock absorbers have not rotted through. Even the rear mount for the shock which is notorious for collecting sand, salt, and water did not rot through. Toyota extended their recall for vehicles found to be driven in high salt conditions.

What recall, the tacoma frames? Totally different issue. As was pointed out to you over on Yotatech, taco frames and 4runner frames came from different factories. The recall was a reaction to vehicles rusting out after only 4 years (applied up to 2004 tacomas)

And you can't take as evidence that your shock mounts didn't rust out, because you are the exception there, mine were heavily rusted, and most everyone else that has had rust issues here has had pretty rusted shock mounts; I can even remember seeing one where the shock mounts failed and they had to weld a new one on.

And as far as the floors, brackets, etc not rusting out, still not a good argument and they may be protected differently than the frame (the floor is for sure), plus the rust is not nearly as bad in areas of the vehicle that don't see road kick-up (i.e. it's worst on the rear end where the most kick-up is).

 

[thor999]

I will not suggest you use galvanized steel to patch it, as welding galvinized metal is fairly bad for your lungs.

When I was in the Navy, we were trained in how to deal w/ "hot metal fever", which would occur when welding galvanized metal, and produce so much pain that the victim would instantly look for a way to commit suicide, fun fact!

 

[Shawn5091]

Anyone getting anywhere with their issues! Same spot! 2000 4 Runner SR5, very unsafe, looks like its about to go! Any advise anyone???

 

[shawn18jgr]

Anyone have any more issues or problems? Check out my post abouve and any suggestions would be great! Thanks, Shawn

 

[Nelsonmd]

Anyone have any more issues or problems? Check out my post abouve and any suggestions would be great! Thanks, Shawn

Did you change your name? I din't even know you could do that...

What are you wanting to know? Since you have full penetration, you need to have it welded back together like Wallace did (this kind of is your only option outside of replacing the frame or scrapping the whole thing). Several other guys have gotten theirs welded as well. After that, you need to protect it using something like POR-15 or some other paint.

 

[cfranck1]

Did you change your name? I din't even know you could do that...

What are you wanting to know? Since you have full penetration, you need to have it welded back together like Wallace did (this kind of is your only option outside of replacing the frame or scrapping the whole thing). Several other guys have gotten theirs welded as well. After that, you need to protect it using something like POR-15 or some other paint.

:iagree:

You will have to weld your frame like I did.
Heres my rusty welded frame thread. Toyota is not doing anything on these frames like they did with the Tacoma's!
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/104521-another-rusty-frame.html

 

[GB4Runne4]

Got a PM from another user that asked for an update on the weld. Realized I never uploaded pictures.

As a little update - so far so good. Been about 7 or 8 months with no leaks, and the whole unit seems fine. As mentioned earlier, the larger issue of the entire rusting area isn't ever going to go away (and will only get worse over time), but this route has helped extend the life of the housing for almost a year now.

Everyone's issue is different, but I'm personally glad that I took the gamble of paying $400 on a test, instead of just dumping the $2-3K and replacing the whole assembly. Kinda cool bonus is that, as you can see, it extends the size of the whole unit...giving me an extra fluid reserve.

FYI - pictures were taken back around August...right after it was put on...which is why the bottom of the assembly looks oily, and the metal looks brand new.

[/IMG].

 

[Nelsonmd]

That looks pretty sweet. Nice to see a custom job on this. What did you use for paint?

 

[GB4Runne4]

Thanks - I'm definitely happy with it.

Yeah, like I said, this picture was taken right when I came home from getting the unit put on. I let it sit for a few days, then took it back to the welder to check for any leaks, etc. Looked good, so we cleaned it up, then covered it in a light coating of POR-15 paint. Let that dry, then covered that layer in the POR-15 rubberized undercoating spray. The welder actually had both in his shop, which was great - saved a bit there too.

The entire unit is black now, and the coating seems to be holding up really well, particularly given the incredibly salted roads during a western NY winter.

 

[expertyotatech]

Everybody with frame rot!

Hi all!

I'm new to this forum and want to share some first hand knowledge with every single one of you.

Toyota is a great company. They produce some really amazing vehicles. But at the end of the day - its all synthetics and alloys. Road "Salt" and the ocean air cant get enough love and has to erode everything.

I grew up in New England and rust comes with every new Spring season. Unless you own your own heated bay with means to wash your car EVERY TIME YOU TAKE HER OUT. Toyota, back in the late 80s actually sent three engineers from Japan to Vermont, NH, Maine, ect to research the reason for rotting sub-frames on the Tercels. No joke! I know and used to work with a good man that works at a dealer in Berlin VT that had this interaction. While I worked at that dealership I piloted the Tacoma frame swaps for New England. Dealing with FTS's and District Reps and the whole nine yards. At first it was daunting with finding a way to complete these swaps with limited resources at my disposal. As time went on, I figured out the key to making these swaps profitable and it made me (little) money and the dealer (LOTS) money (FLATRATE).

So what I'm getting at is, let your voice be heard. Bring it to the nearest dealer and talk to the service manager and ask if you can kindly set up a time to speak to an FTS if there is one in the area. !!!It will also be in your favor if you are a repeat customer at a Toyota dealer!!! Call the Toyota/Lexus customer hotline, create a case and just be honest with them. Dont be upset with them, dont yell at them, just calmly state your concern and let it be (for the time being). When Toyota Corp. of USA see a huge number of call ins about 1995-2002 4Runners with rotting frames - they will raise a hand and say "Yo! WTF G-Dawg?! Why there B rot on our 4Runn3rs?" You get the point...

Toyota customer hotline ------
Toyota Help

Heres another area to channel your cancers through ------
https://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/VehicleComplaint/index.xhtml


Good luck,

Bruce W

 

[[email protected]]

Hi Bruce

Thanks for the helpful suggestions. I've lived in New England my whole life and I know about rusty vehicles, but this is different. No body rust at all on my 4Runner (kudos to Toyota for figuring that out), but the frame rot is terrible. The box rail frame is rusting from the inside out, and the lack of rust elsewhere on the truck (including the outside of the frame) makes me think that the inside of the frame was not properly protected against corrosion. A rusty fender is not a safety issue, but a rotten frame is!

I filed a complaint with the NHTSA and called Toyota corporate and spoke with a rep about my problem in a calm, professional manner. The rep (really nice guy) said that there was no frame swap or buyback program like with the Tacoma/Tundra, but they have a record of my complaint and would let me know in the unlikely event that something happened in the future. He said that the number of 4Runners sold was much less than the number of Tacomas, which is probably why there have not been enough complaints to trigger a response from Toyota.

My experience with a local Toyota dealer (Toyota of Watertown, MA) left a bad taste in my mouth. I brought the truck in and spoke with the service manager. He said that they charge a $150 (approximate number, I can't remember the exact figure as this was two years ago, but it was >$100 and <$200) diagnostic fee just to have them put my truck on the lift to look at the problem, and that there was nothing they would do to fix it anyway. He then told me that it was illegal to fix the frame (not true) and that there were several nice 4Runners on the lot I could buy as a replacement. I saved $150 and went on my way.

As Bruce said, it's important for everyone who has a frame rot problem to report this to the NHTSA and Toyota corporate. If there are enough complaints, Toyota will have to address the issue. This is not just for enthusiasts like us, but also for non-enthusiasts who don't realize that there is a problem or how to fix it.

 

[viapol]

I also have the frame rust. 97 4runner. (Ohio)Oddly enough it is a rusted thru the same place as most others i have seen.. (passenger frame rail beside muffler.Hmmmm???) While i hear some people say.."Its an old vehicle and they spray salt on the roadways where you live" quit yer *****in.yadayada. I have a 93 Civic with 280,000 miles and I NEVER wash it...Ever. There is nothing even remotely close to the 4runners rust. Looks pretty good underneath it. So comparing apples to apples, there is a Problem with the frames!! OR the type of metal used/thickness/etc...something is definately not right. I have seen many vehicles 10-20 years older than the runner without the frame rusting into oblivion.