Shhhhh Quiet Please (3rd Gen Sound Deadening Project)

[RussToy]

This weekend was full of prep work for the impending sound deadening project. I realized that if I was going to rip out my entire interior, I needed a clean dry place to store it. My garage is a disaster at the moment, so I spent an entire weekend cleaning it out. Also, figured I should re-wire the entire garage while I was at it. Because why not? And sure, time to put in new shelving. And peg board the workbench area.

Projects are never easy or simple, eh?

Wow...you sound just like me!! Maybe I am "normal" after all...lol!! Anytime I go to do a project, I always end up doing 5 other project...just so I can do the original one! No wonder I can't get anything done!

I'm excited to see how this turns out for you...and what products you use. I've been putting this mod off for quite so time, just because there soooo many different types of sound deadeners...how do you choose?!?

Good luck and enjoy. Please take lots of pics for us...and thank again for the write-up!!

 

[nodixe]

Livingoverland.com

 

[blizz86]

Ive been doing a bunch of research on this as well..

heres what is comes down to

CLD:
- decreases resonance, vibrations, etc
- either you're going to ball out and use a foil backed butyl adhesive (dynamat xtreme or second skin) or a use inexpensive foil backed asphalt adhesive (roofing material)

CCF: \
- closed cell foam: decreases higher frequency vibrations by being a physical barrier between sheet metal
- you can purchase dedicated CCF from sound barrier companies or you can hop on ebay or go to the hardware store and buy pool wall foam (home depot carries this in 1/8 inch.. you can easily double or triple up and still be saving money)

MLV:
- mass loaded vinyl - serves as an acoustic barrier
- this is what is going to be blocking most of the noise. sticking this to the ccf might be a task because glues that stick to vinyl usually req vinyl to vinyl contact.
- home depot also carries this and is sold as an acoustic barrier for walls.

reflective insulation - insulation from cold/heat
- can serve the same role as CCF as well since it takes up physical space
- reflectix is often used and pros use 3m thinsulate (good luck finding this stuff)
- if anyone has a source for a good insulation material let us know (i believe jute works well too)

 

[RussToy]

Ive been doing a bunch of research on this as well..

heres what is comes down to

CLD:
- decreases resonance, vibrations, etc
- either you're going to ball out and use a foil backed butyl adhesive (dynamat xtreme or second skin) or a use inexpensive foil backed asphalt adhesive (roofing material)

CCF: \
- closed cell foam: decreases higher frequency vibrations by being a physical barrier between sheet metal
- you can purchase dedicated CCF from sound barrier companies or you can hop on ebay or go to the hardware store and buy pool wall foam (home depot carries this in 1/8 inch.. you can easily double or triple up and still be saving money)

MLV:
- mass loaded vinyl - serves as an acoustic barrier
- this is what is going to be blocking most of the noise. sticking this to the ccf might be a task because glues that stick to vinyl usually req vinyl to vinyl contact.
- home depot also carries this and is sold as an acoustic barrier for walls.

reflective insulation - insulation from cold/heat
- can serve the same role as CCF as well since it takes up physical space
- reflectix is often used and pros use 3m thinsulate (good luck finding this stuff)
- if anyone has a source for a good insulation material let us know (i believe jute works well too)

Quite impressive!! Brian, you definitely have been doing your homework! Since you've done so much research...do you know the magical combination that works best in our Runners for the nice Lexus quite ride?

I mean, do we use one from each category...so you use 4 layers for the best protection?? Or which combo works best?

Thanks for your help...maybe this will help the OP in picking the best combo?!?

 

[blizz86]

Quite impressive!! Brian, you definitely have been doing your homework! Since you've done so much research...do you know the magical combination that works best in our Runners for the nice Lexus quite ride?

I mean, do we use one from each category...so you use 4 layers for the best protection?? Or which combo works best?

Thanks for your help...maybe this will help the OP in picking the best combo?!?

Lol. I got tired of looking for different sources without spending a butt load of money on ccf and mlv.

From what ive read and researched..
doors you use the 3 (CLD, CCF, and MLV), not much room for much else also i dont think much heat comes in through the doors
roof: CLD, and insulation should be enough
cargo area: i drove around without any insulation or CLD the take i took the rear carpet/panels/jute out and it got pretty warm (this was on a 65F day) so it wouldnt hurt to use all 4 layers
tranny tunnel: same story as the cargo area
floors: the 3 main layers and insulation where you see fit.

its mainly what i listed in the summary
CLD - low freq vibrations stopped through additional mass
CCF - higher freq vibrations stopped through a physical barrier
MLV - reduces acoustics by literally being a heavy closed barrier

 

[alphyn]

Lol. I got tired of looking for different sources without spending a butt load of money on ccf and mlv.

From what ive read and researched..
doors you use the 3 (CLD, CCF, and MLV), not much room for much else also i dont think much heat comes in through the doors
roof: CLD, and insulation should be enough
cargo area: i drove around without any insulation or CLD the take i took the rear carpet/panels/jute out and it got pretty warm (this was on a 65F day) so it wouldnt hurt to use all 4 layers
tranny tunnel: same story as the cargo area
floors: the 3 main layers and insulation where you see fit.

its mainly what i listed in the summary
CLD - low freq vibrations stopped through additional mass
CCF - higher freq vibrations stopped through a physical barrier
MLV - reduces acoustics by literally being a heavy closed barrier

Great writeup above, Blizz. I'm kind of in the same spot you are. I already purchased about 70 sqft of CLD (Dynamat Xtreme) on Amazon and it is sitting in my garage now. The CCF and MLV choices are becoming a real pain to sort through because of high cost and multiple options.

As you mentioned above, CCF and MLV are quite common products. The MLV w/CCF backing can be quite pricey. As well, there's quite a range of MLV out there, anywhere from 0.5 lbs per sqft to 2 lbs per sqft.

I've also found some lead core with CCF backing on both sides. a 12 sqft sheet of that was $230. Prices can definitely add up. CLD was the easy stuff pick out. Now to narrow down all options!

Anyway, talked to a guy the other day that had $12k "invested" in his audio system. That included car audio components, as well as all sound deadening materials used. He also was the owner of a car audio installation shop, so it was his business to buy (and sell) crazy expensive sound products. My conversation with him really did change my perspective on what I wanted to do with my 4runner. He had very specific results he was looking for and chose the appropriate materials to accomplish his goals. I need to figure that out for myself first before just throwing random crap in my truck and claiming victory or defeat.

To that end, I have ordered a decibel meter from Amazon and am going to be doing baseline testing over the next few days. My personal goal is to try and make my 4runner as quiet as my Audi A3. So, going to test my Audi and see how that car performs, and test the 4runner. Then, work backwards and see what materials I need.

 

[nodixe]

Ok. After re-reading the article on reinforcing the roof at http://livingoverland.com/2012/02/reinforcing-roof.html I figured I better correct my previous statement:NO WELDING REQUIRED. In fact the process is so simple it should be a requirement for anybody removing the headliner, sunroof or not. It consists of using steel flat bar to reinforce track support (omitted by toyota in favor of sun roof) and securing front cross bar to the body. And while aimed directly at models with sunroof, I'm sure this write up will inspire other ideas.
Ok, sorry for the redirect. As for this topic I am loving this thread.

 

[blizz86]

Great writeup above, Blizz. I'm kind of in the same spot you are. I already purchased about 70 sqft of CLD (Dynamat Xtreme) on Amazon and it is sitting in my garage now. The CCF and MLV choices are becoming a real pain to sort through because of high cost and multiple options.

As you mentioned above, CCF and MLV are quite common products. The MLV w/CCF backing can be quite pricey. As well, there's quite a range of MLV out there, anywhere from 0.5 lbs per sqft to 2 lbs per sqft.

I've also found some lead core with CCF backing on both sides. a 12 sqft sheet of that was $230. Prices can definitely add up. CLD was the easy stuff pick out. Now to narrow down all options!

Anyway, talked to a guy the other day that had $12k "invested" in his audio system. That included car audio components, as well as all sound deadening materials used. He also was the owner of a car audio installation shop, so it was his business to buy (and sell) crazy expensive sound products. My conversation with him really did change my perspective on what I wanted to do with my 4runner. He had very specific results he was looking for and chose the appropriate materials to accomplish his goals. I need to figure that out for myself first before just throwing random crap in my truck and claiming victory or defeat.

To that end, I have ordered a decibel meter from Amazon and am going to be doing baseline testing over the next few days. My personal goal is to try and make my 4runner as quiet as my Audi A3. So, going to test my Audi and see how that car performs, and test the 4runner. Then, work backwards and see what materials I need.

Yup. I like many others before i did research was that CLD was the main factor in sound deadening but it really isnt. You really only need 25-35% coverage with CLD starting in the middle 50% of panels. (but since you have everything open you might as well do more) then stuff as much ccf as possible and layer that with the MLV.

I am/was still sourcing CCF and MLV so i just covered up my rear cargo area/wheel wells with only CLD for the time being and there is already a large difference.

Heres a decent source for CCF (physical barrier that uses air pockets as insulation)
Swim Time 75 ft. Roll Above Ground Pool Wall Foam-NL111 at The Home Depot

and the source for MLV
dB-3 4 ft. x 8 ft. Acoustical Barrier-DB348X96BX at The Home Depot

I plan to use this later on since ive diverted some money towards a roof rack.

 

[0xfded]

Heres a decent source for CCF (physical barrier that uses air pockets as insulation)
Swim Time 75 ft. Roll Above Ground Pool Wall Foam-NL111 at The Home Depot

and the source for MLV
dB-3 4 ft. x 8 ft. Acoustical Barrier-DB348X96BX at The Home Depot

Thank you for both of those links. Last time I went looking for MLV at Home Depot to do my doors, I came up blank, but that stuff looks perfect.

 

[alphyn]

Sound meter arrived, time for testing!

Sound meter arrived from Amazon today. This is what it looks like:

First thoughts? This thing is super sensitive. When I was baseline testing my cabin volume, I could tell a sizable jump in decibels when a car was driving by my house more than 100 yards away. Ambient noise on my quiet street was about 50 decibels, but a car driving by would jump it up to about 60-65 decibels.

Also, I noticed driving around my street that whenever my suspension would clunk in the rear due to a pothole or road imperfection, I registered over 100 decibels.

The science dork inside of me is looking forward to measuring decibels under a bunch of road conditions and vehicle speeds now. Might have some explaining to do if a cop pulls me over for looking at my sound level meter, though.

Here are the results from today's baseline testing. This is also posted on the first page.

 

[Skidmarcx]

Sweet! I should do some testing of my own to see if I can improve anywhere!

 

[blizz86]

Thank you for both of those links. Last time I went looking for MLV at Home Depot to do my doors, I came up blank, but that stuff looks perfect.

No problem thats what this thread is for! It doesnt list the specific densities but im sure you can look it up from the manufacturer if it isnt listed on the label.

 

[RussToy]

Sound meter arrived from Amazon today. This is what it looks like:

Do you have a link for the sound meter? I really never thought about doing this before...but heck, I think it might be fun to take some readings before and after doing this mod.

Thanks...
Russel

 

[alphyn]

Do you have a link for the sound meter? I really never thought about doing this before...but heck, I think it might be fun to take some readings before and after doing this mod.

Thanks...
Russel

Russel, here's the link.

Amazon.com : Pyle PSPL01 Mini Digital Sound Level Meter : Digital Voice Recorders : Electronics

And in case that doesn't work, the model is:
Pyle PSPL01 Mini Digital Sound Level Meter. It's about $25.

 

[alphyn]

Quieter than a Rolls?

Just found a great article about how quiet stock cars can be.

The Art of Noise

The article is from 2009, so a little dated. The premise of the article was to identify vehicles with the lowest decibels at 80mph, regardless of year. The results were as follows. Note that the number at the end is the decibel reading.

1995 BMW 728i 66
1995 BMW 523i 66
2003 BMW 730i 66
2009 BMW 330d 68
2009 Mercedes C350 CGI 68
2009 Renault Megane dCI 69
1996 Mercedes C280 69
2008 Mercedes C250 CDI 69
1996 Citroen XM V6 69
1995 Audi A6 2.8 69
2006 Mercedes E220 CDI 69
2006 BMW 520d 69
2000 Ford Mondeo 2.016V 69
2009 Ford Mondeo 2.5 Titanium S 70
2006 Audi A6 2.7 TDI 70
1996 Mercedes E230 T 71
2003 Toyota Camry 2.2 71
2009 Toyota Auris 2.0 D-4D 71
1995 Honda Civic 1.5i VTEC-E 72
2009 Honda Civic 2.2i-CTDi 72
2002 VW Golf 1.9 TDI 72
2009 VW Golf 2.0 TDI 72
2009 Opel Astra 1.9 CDTi 72
1996 Opel Astra 1.6 16V 73
2003 Toyota Corolla Compact 1.4 73
2009 Porsche Carrera 73
1995 VW Golf Cabrio 1.9TDI 73
1996 Ford Mondeo 1.8GT 73
1995 VW Golf CL 1.6 74
1995 Mercedes E230 74
2000 Toyota Corolla 1.6 76
2009 Ford Ka 76
1996 Renault Megane 2.0 16v 76

Not a surprise that the Toyota 4runner didn't make the cut. My idle decibel level is at 75 dbs! Most of the vehicles listed above had smaller engines and weren't shaped like bricks. Also, 1995 looked like a good year to own a BMW. Actually, the mid-nineties looked like a fabulous time to own a quiet car.

 

[RussToy]

Russel, here's the link.

Amazon.com : Pyle PSPL01 Mini Digital Sound Level Meter : Digital Voice Recorders : Electronics

And in case that doesn't work, the model is:
Pyle PSPL01 Mini Digital Sound Level Meter. It's about $25.

Worked great...thank you!! I should be getting mine on Tuesday.

 

[freshley]

What you need to do is have someone drive on a stretch of concrete highway at 70mph while you go around the cabin with the sound meter. Find the areas where there is the most noise so we know what areas to deal with to get the most bang for the buck. I'd love to do this to mine since I'm mostly on the highway but I'm not dropping $900 to do the whole car. I think for $2-300 you can probably do most of your reduction by just focusing in on specific bad spots.

 

[alphyn]

What you need to do is have someone drive on a stretch of concrete highway at 70mph while you go around the cabin with the sound meter. Find the areas where there is the most noise so we know what areas to deal with to get the most bang for the buck. I'd love to do this to mine since I'm mostly on the highway but I'm not dropping $900 to do the whole car. I think for $2-300 you can probably do most of your reduction by just focusing in on specific bad spots.

Good point, Fresh. After seeing just how loud the idle was and how bombastic rear suspension noise was, I think you could really make a difference using MLV in the front and rear cargo to reduce noise. Add in CLD in a few key areas and you could be under $300 easy.

Key area to note. From all the discussion threads I have read, you only need CLD (Dynamat, Damplifier, peel and seal roofing material, etc.) on 25-30% on a panel for it to be effective. Plastering it on every available surface area isn't a requirement, and probably only helps out minimally after the panel has been sufficiently deadened. CLD does a poor job of reducing decibel levels, and you really cannot pile on enough of it on to change the frequency of sound, or pitch, to inaudible levels. You really need MLV or CCF absorb sound waves. Strategically placed CLD plus full coverage of MLV might be the way to go if you're on a budget.

 

[alphyn]

Lead Sheeting As a Soundproofing Barrier

I'm really interested to see if I can track down reasonably priced lead sheeting as opposed to MLV. FYI, CLD like Dynamat xtreme used in vehicles is about .067" of aluminum. Per this chart, you would need to use approximately 2 layers of Dynamat Xtreme to equal the sound absorption capabilities of a .03" layer of lead sheeting.

Also as a reference, here is lead weight per sqft of a given thickness.

 

[alphyn]

CLD Product Review

Ever wanted a complete and total exhaustive list of both CLD vendors and performance?

Check this post out over at DIY Mobile Audio Forums

I'm still trying to figure the OP's testing methodology. Whatever he is testing for, it makes cool charts like this.