Sometimes I think about selling

[Falls]

your dad's 6-11 over 300 and if your anything within 6" and 100 lbs. of him, driving a runner has got to be painful, painful, painful.

I'm 6-2 and 185 , no comfort problems here. Although bigger would naturally be more comfortable as with anything . He says he is comfortable , but buy the looks of him I know he cant be for very long trips.

I would not buy a Nissan , I would go for a Sequoia long before that . Toyota is a foreign as I will personally go. Just me though.

 

[rook]

Toyota is a foreign as I will personally go. Just me though.

It makes no sense, but I know what you mean :bigok:

 

[Koz]

Just to clarify; by locking the center diff you only disable the VSC, NOT the traction control. The VSC is designed to only engage when the vehicle is about to lose control (spin/slide out). It will cut the throttle and/or pulse one or more of the brakes. The traction control will engage when the tires lose traction. It usually does not cut the throttle, it pulses the brakes. The only purpose for the VSC cut off switch (08) is to disengage the VSC when the vehicle is stuck in snow or mud. You can then hit the switch and power out. It is not intended to be disengaged when driving in bad weather to avoid power being cut.

Falls don't take this wrong, but Sniggle is absolutely correct. Your wife and possibly you need to learn how to use the VSC correctly when driving with poor traction. When your wife was driving and the power was cut (she may have over-reacted and hit the gas too hard to get out of the way), the vehicle sensed instability and cut the throttle. If the VSC was dis-engaged the vehicle probably would have slid or come around and the upcoming vehicle would have still been a threat. The vehicle that came up on your wife was the problem (for not slowing or stopping for your wife), not the VSC.

I took my wife out the first snow and drove around an empty parking lot and simulated every type of emergency maneuver and braking condition I could think of so both of us knew what to expect. This also helped both of us know what the limits of the truck and its system were. At first the system was very overwhelming (with the brakes pulsing, lights flashing, buzzers and bells going off). Then after a while you get used to it and the system then becomes a LIFESAVER!

Koz

 

[Thai]

Excellent post, Koz. I totally agree.

 

[peter78]

Excellent post, Koz. I totally agree.

My whole universe just got changed in a nano second. Now if we can only build on this new model, this new universe will have no war, just wonderful music, peace and harmony....:dancin: :hello: :driving: :yesyes:

 

[GatorGreg]

Excellent post, Koz. I totally agree.

Thai and Koz, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G

 

[juneau92]

Thai and Koz, sitting in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G

LOL!!!

 

[G.I.G.]

Just to clarify; by locking the center diff you only disable the VSC, NOT the traction control. The VSC is designed to only engage when the vehicle is about to lose control (spin/slide out). It will cut the throttle and/or pulse one or more of the brakes. The traction control will engage when the tires lose traction. It usually does not cut the throttle, it pulses the brakes. The only purpose for the VSC cut off switch (08) is to disengage the VSC when the vehicle is stuck in snow or mud. You can then hit the switch and power out. It is not intended to be disengaged when driving in bad weather to avoid power being cut.

That doesn't make sense to me. If what you're saying is true, why would VSC be disengaged when you lock the center diff but not "traction control"? Wouldn't "traction control" be the thing you want turned off when you're stuck so you could power out of it? And, why would the '08 4R's come with a seperate VSC off switch by it's own? In situations where you want VSC off, I would think that you would want the center diff locked as well.

It was my understanding that VSC IS the 4R traction control system. Traction control is generic industry term and I thought VSC was Toyota's version of traction control. In fact, VSC, 4X4, and ATRAC are all part of the "traction control" system. I'm still trying to figure all of this out but I don't recall ever seeing the term "traction control" in a stand alone sentence in the owners manual.

I took my wife out the first snow and drove around an empty parking lot and simulated every type of emergency maneuver and braking condition I could think of so both of us knew what to expect. This also helped both of us know what the limits of the truck and its system were. At first the system was very overwhelming (with the brakes pulsing, lights flashing, buzzers and bells going off). Then after a while you get used to it and the system then becomes a LIFESAVER!

Gonna do the same thing once it starts to snow here!

 

[Koz]

That doesn't make sense to me. If what you're saying is true, why would VSC be disengaged when you lock the center diff but not "traction control"? Wouldn't "traction control" be the thing you want turned off when you're stuck so you could power out of it? And, why would the '08 4R's come with a seperate VSC off switch by it's own? In situations where you want VSC off, I would think that you would want the center diff locked as well.

It was my understanding that VSC IS the 4R traction control system. Traction control is generic industry term and I thought VSC was Toyota's version of traction control. In fact, VSC, 4X4, and ATRAC are all part of the "traction control" system. I'm still trying to figure all of this out but I don't recall ever seeing the term "traction control" in a stand alone sentence in the owners manual.

VSC and ATRAC are two different systems but sometimes work together. They also work with EBD (electronic brake-force distribution), BA (brake assist) and ABS (anti-lock braking system).

The reason the VSC is disengaged when the center is locked is because; you would lock the center (50/50 torque split) when you are off-roading at low speeds (transfer case in low) and the VSC would only create problems by cutting the throttle when you need it. The best setting for bad weather is center un-locked so the VSC would keep you going straight and the torque would vary between the front and rear diffs depending on traction. The ATRAC is traction control and can be over-powered if the center diff is locked. Some times the only way to get out of deep snow or mud is to power-out and the ATRAC only is a detriment. I've found that in deep snow, rocking back and forth (with the center diff locked) with the least tire spin is the best way to get out and sometimes low helps. Powering out is my last resort.

Koz

 

[keylay31]

Excellent post, Koz. I totally agree.

Agreed. Driving up here in the blizzard that was winter in Colorado last year, I fully appreciated the systems. I was one of the only vehicles in control on the road. I've never had control issues with the systems.

 

[brad6841]

I have a truck with no traction control what so ever, other than the 4wd stick on the floor, and I am always in control of my truck.

Being in control depends a lot on the driver, not how many systems are trying to compensate for their screw ups. If you are used to driving a vehicle with no traction control and you are put into one that has it, then you are in for a big surprise when trying to maneuver.

I still say no matter how good a traction control system is designed, I still want to be the only one in control of my vehicle. I know what is coming down the road and I know how I want to deal with it. Having a traction control system trying to override what I want to do, may actually be worse IMO.


:bigok:

 

[Koz]

I have a truck with no traction control what so ever, other than the 4wd stick on the floor, and I am always in control of my truck.

Being in control depends a lot on the driver, not how many systems are trying to compensate for their screw ups. If you are used to driving a vehicle with no traction control and you are put into one that has it, then you are in for a big surprise when trying to maneuver.

I still say no matter how good a traction control system is designed, I still want to be the only one in control of my vehicle. I know what is coming down the road and I know how I want to deal with it. Having a traction control system trying to override what I want to do, may actually be worse IMO. :bigok:

You are absolutely correct about the driver making the difference, but there are times when $hit happens that no human can react or control the vehicle the way these systems can. Example; you're going down a twisty road very slowly because the road is covered by snow and all of a sudden you hit some black ice under the snow. Before you can react the vehicle has lost traction and you are sliding across the center line. With these systems the computer can sense the lose of traction before sliding and it has already cut the throttle and pulsed one or two brakes to keep you in the lane.

As Clint Eastwood says

 

[Falls]

I totally disagree with Koz's statement. You are not reading the posts properly and comprehending what you read.

 

[brad6841]

You are absolutely correct about the driver making the difference, but there are times when $hit happens that no human can react or control the vehicle the way these systems can. Example; you're going down a twisty road very slowly because the road is covered by snow and all of a sudden you hit some black ice under the snow. Before you can react the vehicle has lost traction and you are sliding across the center line. With these systems the computer can sense the lose of traction before sliding and it has already cut the throttle and pulsed one or two brakes to keep you in the lane.

As Clint Eastwood says

 

[keylay31]

I totally disagree with Koz's statement. You are not reading the posts properly and comprehending what you read.

Koz is the only one making complete sense. Of course the driver makes a difference, but when I pull out onto a road, having that extra help makes a huge difference. I used to drive a manual explorer (with nothing but ABS), and no matter how good the driver, there will be issues. (Now granted, being able to spin "out of control" while in control, is actually helpful and something I miss, but I'm safer with the T4R.

Let me reiterate: WHY WOULD TOYOTA IMPLEMENT SOMETHING THAT PUTS YOU AT RISK?!?! AND WHY WOULD THE INDUSTRY UNILATERALLY IMPLEMENT VSC OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS IF IT WAS A SAFETY CONCERN?!?!? :bash:

 

[Falls]

Koz is the only one making complete sense. Of course the driver makes a difference, but when I pull out onto a road, having that extra help makes a huge difference. I used to drive a manual explorer (with nothing but ABS), and no matter how good the driver, there will be issues. (Now granted, being able to spin "out of control" while in control, is actually helpful and something I miss, but I'm safer with the T4R.

Let me reiterate: WHY WOULD TOYOTA IMPLEMENT SOMETHING THAT PUTS YOU AT RISK?!?! AND WHY WOULD THE INDUSTRY UNILATERALLY IMPLEMENT VSC OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS IF IT WAS A SAFETY CONCERN?!?!? :bash:

What extra help are you speaking of ?

 

[brad6841]

WHY WOULD TOYOTA IMPLEMENT SOMETHING THAT PUTS YOU AT RISK?!?! AND WHY WOULD THE INDUSTRY UNILATERALLY IMPLEMENT VSC OVER THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS IF IT WAS A SAFETY CONCERN?!?!? :bash:

I don't think anyone is saying that the VSC puts you at risk. What 'I' am saying is it sometimes works against what you as a trained driver may be trying to do.....case in point the maneuver that Falls' wife was trying to perform. If she would have been given full power of the vehicle she probably would have merged into traffic safely, but instead was put into a dangerous situation because the vehicle was trying to think for her. I can't tell you how many times I've done exactly what she did in my truck and lived to tell about it.

The traction control systems implemented on most vehicles, IMO, gives some untrained drivers a sense of false security in bad weather situations. Some individuals may think it is now ok to talk on the phone or mess with their iPod because "My car has traction control, the car will take care of it". That is my only worry, is that drivers will become dumber and rely fully on the traction system that is in their vehicle.

Now I'm making these points because this is what I honestly feel. I honestly feel that if the traction control system wouldn't have been on Falls' 4Runner, his wife would have merged safely into traffic and been safely on her way. I am in no way trying to piss off anyone, I just enjoy a good debate and a debate is not good if it one sided.

:cheers:

 

[Falls]

I don't think anyone is saying that the VSC puts you at risk. What 'I' am saying is it sometimes works against what you as a trained driver may be trying to do.....case in point the maneuver that Falls' wife was trying to perform. If she would have been given full power of the vehicle she probably would have merged into traffic safely, but instead was put into a dangerous situation because the vehicle was trying to think for her. I can't tell you how many times I've done exactly what she did in my truck and lived to tell about it.

The traction control systems implemented on most vehicles, IMO, gives some untrained drivers a sense of false security in bad weather situations. Some individuals may think it is now ok to talk on the phone or mess with their iPod because "My car has traction control, the car will take care of it". That is my only worry, is that drivers will become dumber and rely fully on the traction system that is in their vehicle.

Now I'm making these points because this is what I honestly feel. I honestly feel that if the traction control system wouldn't have been on Falls' 4Runner, his wife would have merged safely into traffic and been safely on her way. I am in no way trying to piss off anyone, I just enjoy a good debate and a debate is not good if it one sided.

:cheers:

This is EXACTLY what I'm talking about , thank you for your understanding and reading the posts and not telling me I don't know how to drive or my wife can't drive. I too have been in this situation It does give drivers a false sense of security and a false sense of bad weather driving abilities. Having that VSC disable switch to power out of a situation like that is great and exactly what it would be great for . Like I said before , driving on the hiway or a rural road and just crusing along I have no problem with the VSC on.

I'm no professional driver but have driven in many years of snow storms & blizzards (30 years to be exact) , I have never had a problem . I see MANY , MANY 4x4 SUV or truck drivers who think I've got a 4x4 and can go like hell. I see a lot of them in the ditch where I live out in the country.

Kelay31,
I'm sure Toyota wouldn't make something unsafe , I doubt that !! BUT , it was changed on 08's for a REASON and I would but the farm this is exactly why.

 

[Thai]

Although i cannot speak for Koz, but i think that Koz is saying that if Falls' wife did have the VSC OFF switch, then she would have spun her rear end around (or spin uncontrolled) which would have led to a worst? accident. Maybe VSC cutting her throttle was a good thing?? It's so hard to say VSC good or bad on that day because none of us were there except for Falls and his wife.

As for having the OFF switch, i wonder how many people will remember to push it at an intersection?? Would Falls wife remember to push the VSC OFF button on that day?? Would you push the button at every wet intersection?? And what if you forget to RE-engage VSC after crossing the intersection and slide off the road while going down the highway?? Would that cause more harm??

I don't think that the VSC OFF button on the '08 4runner is for the circumstances that Falls (and others) described. I would think that it is mainly for low-speed circumstances like getting out of a ditch or a pile of snow (after an overnight snow storm).

My opinion (as always).

 

[brad6841]

Yes none of us were there, but picturing it in my head (although I could be completely wrong) I've seen myself do what I'm picturing many times. And having driven 2 different Toyota's with 2 totally different VSC systems, I could see where the VSC could hinder getting it done in a safe and timely manner. Especially the older VSC version in my dad's '01 Sequoia.

Now yes, you are also correct that I don't know the driving skills of Falls' wife. But I have to say most older women (no offense Falls) were brought up in an era where there was no traction control and they could 'drive'. Now you put them in a vehicle with it and they have to relearn 20 to 30 years of driving knowledge.

Now being 27, that gives me what about 10 years of driving experience, 6 of which has been in my truck with no traction control. And as I stated before I have done, what I'm picturing Falls' wife do, many times in that same truck and have lived to tell about it. All of this with only 10 years of driving experience, if I can pull it off then I would safely assume that a woman with 20 to 30 years of driving experience could also pull it off.

As for the VSC off button on the '08s. If I owned it I would push it every time I got into the vehicle. It's not the end of the world if your vehicle is not telling you how you should drive.

:bigok: