gamefreakgc
Elite Member
Is that your timing retard? If it is, that's shocking. I must have a very happy engine, I pull 0 timing across the board except for 1 degree at around 2000-2500 RPM where I get a little of that low gear ping.
The 3.4L TRD Supercharger Thread
- Thread starter SCRunner12
- Start date
Is that your timing retard? If it is, that's shocking. I must have a very happy engine, I pull 0 timing across the board except for 1 degree at around 2000-2500 RPM where I get a little of that low gear ping.
Not to terribly far off. I used the base map and upped the timing on the 2000-3000 range.
I just cant understand that. It dosen't make sense to me at all how you zeroed it out. Hell SS even said the base map is not aggressive enough.
Guess I just got ****ed.
Interesting. Does not make sense but might try that. but im also always running 93.
mikeferg
New member
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mikeferg
New member
4Reak Show
New member
Your timing looks very close to mine. A hair more aggressive perhaps but darn close.
My AFR's are heavy on fat side. Low 11's at almost any boost level, and sometimes high 10's if it's a hotter day (air is less dense, therefore richer mixture). I think I added 10% extra fuel across the board at least once, maybe twice I can't remember. And then I even added more fuel at lower levels to help combat ping as well. I tried to find the balance of keeping timing up while lowering ping via fuel increase. Probably not the best way, but I know my engine is plenty safe. I also don't drive it super aggressively all the time.
I think it's also worth noting I have a manual. I think manual vs auto changes tuning methods as an auto sort of immediately can jump up in rpm (as it downshifts a lot faster) whereas a manual has to build up the rpm more steadily being directly linked.
That's my experience at least.
My AFR's are heavy on fat side. Low 11's at almost any boost level, and sometimes high 10's if it's a hotter day (air is less dense, therefore richer mixture). I think I added 10% extra fuel across the board at least once, maybe twice I can't remember. And then I even added more fuel at lower levels to help combat ping as well. I tried to find the balance of keeping timing up while lowering ping via fuel increase. Probably not the best way, but I know my engine is plenty safe. I also don't drive it super aggressively all the time.
I think it's also worth noting I have a manual. I think manual vs auto changes tuning methods as an auto sort of immediately can jump up in rpm (as it downshifts a lot faster) whereas a manual has to build up the rpm more steadily being directly linked.
That's my experience at least.
I really appreciate that dude. for as many people running the 7th there isn't enough info out there in my experience. SS really helped when they sent over their maps. They were very helpful in all this.
Just to note that is not the timing in running. Thats just waht SS sent me. Im gonna post my timing map for eveyone to get a good idea of what one can look like.
As for my fuel im having a super hard time with that as well. When i hit the enrichment my AFRs drop to mid 13s but kind of jump around. its very strange.
does your AFR stay steady?
this is the email i sent to SS about it.
"Ever since I have had this my AFRs get pretty crazy when the enrichment kicks in. It doesn't matter where I set Over Pressure. When it activates it seems like it wants to stay at 13.5.1 but it jumps all around between 13-14 randomly.
On the stock map it used to do that then would jump down to 11.5.1 and hold pretty steady. All while never even getting over 3500 RPM. I couldn't seem to tame it. Whats so strange is that it shouldn't do that at all based on the values on the fuel map and the amount of load on the motor. None of it seemed to line up. If anything it was hovering around 1.1 somewhere on the map.
Tonight I set my OP to 1 psi. I then added extra fuel into several rows starting at 2 psi in an attempt to tame the wild AFRs and try and make it richer. The AFRs did the same thing I mentioned earlier from 1 psi to somewhere 3 psi maybe. Then it jumped down to around 10.0.1. this was not WOT. simply accelerating up hills never getting to 3500rpm. Its very strange because it was only floating on 1.1 on the fuel map. whats going on here?
Its like my truck wants to fight the enrichment then randomly gets too rich when its not programmed to yet and then holds AFRs steady"
Its super frustrating.
4Reak Show
New member
Yeah our timing is very similar. Fuel tho, mine goes down to a lot lower rpm and lower boost I think. My goal was to try and be at 11.5 any time I was boosted (1 psi or greater). So far, it's worked out fine. Probably too rich for some, but it's not a daily driver and I don't race car it unless I'm getting on the highway or pulling a big hill.
I'm wondering if your random afr issue is a closed loop/open loop problem. I know that whole concept is foreign to people. I also know, there is a lot of grey area as to when the computer goes into OL. Don't forget, after you make a change, even in settings, to go to "write it" so that it changes the software. Otherwise, it doesn't modify the software.
As another note, I know that there were a few occasions when I changed my overpressure to 1 or something and then after driving I would go back and it was at a different setting. Not sure what that was about but I do remember it. I think mine is also at 1 psi. To my knowledge, that's the point when the 7th software starts to lie to the main ECU. So for example, if your number was set to 4 psi, 1-3.5 psi areas would be controlled by the main ECU, no matter how much fuel you put into those cells. The ECU will learn and pull back fuel to get the 02 readings where it wants it.
I'm wondering if your random afr issue is a closed loop/open loop problem. I know that whole concept is foreign to people. I also know, there is a lot of grey area as to when the computer goes into OL. Don't forget, after you make a change, even in settings, to go to "write it" so that it changes the software. Otherwise, it doesn't modify the software.
As another note, I know that there were a few occasions when I changed my overpressure to 1 or something and then after driving I would go back and it was at a different setting. Not sure what that was about but I do remember it. I think mine is also at 1 psi. To my knowledge, that's the point when the 7th software starts to lie to the main ECU. So for example, if your number was set to 4 psi, 1-3.5 psi areas would be controlled by the main ECU, no matter how much fuel you put into those cells. The ECU will learn and pull back fuel to get the 02 readings where it wants it.
4Reak Show
New member
And to answer your question about my overall AFR's: yes there are steady. I'm pretty much around 14.2-14.6 idling, cruising and slow steady acceleration. But anytime my throttle opens enough to get to near the 1-2 psi mark the enrichment begins and I'm anywhere from 12's down to high 10's if it's 95-100 degrees outside.
I'd be curious to see what the SS is seeing. And by that, what cells is the software in when it acts up? I'm curious if you're entering an actual boosted state or are intermittently going from vacuum to pressure like maybe the vacuum bypass valve is acting up on yours. Or, something is up with the source vacuum/pressure hose feeding the info to the 7TH computer. I did work on mine, pinched the little hose after reinstalling it, and therefore the 7th thought I was in 0 psi all the time and was adding a shit load of fuel constantly. I was in the 9's idling! Found my pinched hose and all is fine now. Point of the story is to check all the inputs before tackling the outputs.
I'd be curious to see what the SS is seeing. And by that, what cells is the software in when it acts up? I'm curious if you're entering an actual boosted state or are intermittently going from vacuum to pressure like maybe the vacuum bypass valve is acting up on yours. Or, something is up with the source vacuum/pressure hose feeding the info to the 7TH computer. I did work on mine, pinched the little hose after reinstalling it, and therefore the 7th thought I was in 0 psi all the time and was adding a shit load of fuel constantly. I was in the 9's idling! Found my pinched hose and all is fine now. Point of the story is to check all the inputs before tackling the outputs.
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Everything is good. Vac AFRs are 14.6 and the hoses are good.
Its just when I hit the psi that enrichment is set to I get this issue.
im wondering if this could be a bad o2 sensor, even though everything else is normal or if its a very small exhaust leak. I'm working on the exhaust this weekend and thinking of removing the cats. Especially if they have any amount of blockage.
Hopefully if i do remove them i wont have any issues besides a check engine light until i ca get a o2 sim.
Its just when I hit the psi that enrichment is set to I get this issue.
im wondering if this could be a bad o2 sensor, even though everything else is normal or if its a very small exhaust leak. I'm working on the exhaust this weekend and thinking of removing the cats. Especially if they have any amount of blockage.
Hopefully if i do remove them i wont have any issues besides a check engine light until i ca get a o2 sim.
i dont know why open/closed loop would be causing this. That is what the enrichment feature is for. But it does eem like the ECU is fighting the enrichment feature for some reason.
I just think i get way too rich. The one time i floored it WOT it lost power at some point. Im assuming it could have bogged down. Im also now wondering if the injector URD sent could be faulty. could be dumping fuel if its not pulsing correctly. Maybe i should see if Gadget will send me another one to test it out and see if it makes a difference.
I just think i get way too rich. The one time i floored it WOT it lost power at some point. Im assuming it could have bogged down. Im also now wondering if the injector URD sent could be faulty. could be dumping fuel if its not pulsing correctly. Maybe i should see if Gadget will send me another one to test it out and see if it makes a difference.
gamefreakgc
Elite Member
A few things,
If your AFR's are bouncing around, you probably have a 96-98 or a 99-00 with the old narrowband sensor. This is normal for those years. Not normal if you have the Air/Fuel ratio wideband sensor that came stock.
If you are not skewing the Oxygen sensor, your tune will not stick. The ECU, except at open loop, will de-tune whatever you put in. Add fuel, and it will take it back out in a few drives until it cannot pull any more fuel, then it will go crazy rich. O2 skewing is the only way to tune closed loop.
11.8 AFR is what you want at WOT. 13's for moderate throttle, 12's for heavy throttle but not yet pedal to the floor status.
Yeah. I have an 04 Tacoma. so i would have an AFR sensor. And this happens after its set to skew. I know its working because my AFRs drop and i don't have any fuel added on the map before its supposed to skew.
I suppose its possible someone installed a old style o2 sensor but i dont think it would even work. im not sure. Maybe my AFR sensor is just worn out and only has issues in this area but doubtful.
I guess its also possible the SS box has an issue not sending a constant signal.
Alright. So I've been reading up on all this. It seems with the 7th injector you cannot tune closed loop. It comes preset to go to around 13.5 when it hits the over pressure value that is placed in the box. It will still tune the fuel out beyond that. So I don't understand how 4Reak Show can tune his AFR to come down so low in closed loop. It doesn't make any sense to me. Theres also a comment on another forum where Gadget cleary states the 7th is not for tuning closed loop.
If you do want to tune close loop you need the AFR controller from URD. This is stated in the UTune guide.
this was evident when I added fuel at a value of 1.2 in all the cells 2psi up to the stock map and down from 2000rpm. My AFR just stayed around 13.5 or so. Its just tuning out the extra fuel to stay at 13.5... or 14.7 the computer sees.
However. If you go into options then hit output on the R4 software you'll see an option for WPM mode. It comes just like the picture I've attached at 3 VDC or volts direct current. 3 volts on a AFR sensor is about 13.5. There is also an option for 2.5 VDC which should take you down to about 12.5 which I would be happier with. But when I selected that option and wrote it nothing changed. It must not be a working option on the AIC.
Speedy mentions this on his website. maybe he can chime in and elaborate a bit on what I just went over. if nothing has changed he cruising around in closed loop boost at 13.5. I just don't know how to add a users tag to let them know they have been summoned. If someone knows how please do. I don't think Gadget still comments but it would be good to get his word on this as well.
If you do want to tune close loop you need the AFR controller from URD. This is stated in the UTune guide.
this was evident when I added fuel at a value of 1.2 in all the cells 2psi up to the stock map and down from 2000rpm. My AFR just stayed around 13.5 or so. Its just tuning out the extra fuel to stay at 13.5... or 14.7 the computer sees.
However. If you go into options then hit output on the R4 software you'll see an option for WPM mode. It comes just like the picture I've attached at 3 VDC or volts direct current. 3 volts on a AFR sensor is about 13.5. There is also an option for 2.5 VDC which should take you down to about 12.5 which I would be happier with. But when I selected that option and wrote it nothing changed. It must not be a working option on the AIC.
Speedy mentions this on his website. maybe he can chime in and elaborate a bit on what I just went over. if nothing has changed he cruising around in closed loop boost at 13.5. I just don't know how to add a users tag to let them know they have been summoned. If someone knows how please do. I don't think Gadget still comments but it would be good to get his word on this as well.
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4Reak Show
New member
Yeah dude so there is tons of confusion on this system. I'll try and explain how I understand it. First of all, there are a few different variations of the 7th injector kit. If your vehicle has basic 02 sensors, then there is a URD kit that taps into cam and crank sensor signals (which allow to adjust timing) and the front 02 sensor signal (which lies to the main ECU to allow for fuel enrichment). If your vehicle has Air Fuel Ratio sensors which is like 99 or 2000 and above then the URD Kit alone will not adjust fuel appropriately. You need a different kit since AFR sensors work on principles of amperage not voltage.
I was told personally by gadget via email that my system (which is the 02 version) CAN and DOES change closed loop enrichment. In the same email he went on to say the "overpressure" setting is to tell the URD Kit when to start tricking the ECU to allow for that.
Here's a hypothetical scenario of my system's operation: it's at 2500 RPMs and I start to punch it so my boost pressure is at 2 psi. My URD Kit is set to 1 psi, so it activates and begins turning on the 7th injector. It simultaneously takes the now overly rich 02 signal voltage and skews it to a more acceptable voltage and sends that acceptable voltage to the main ECU. Meanwhile, it also takes the Cam and Crank sensor signals and delays/modifies accordingly to slow timing down, yet again relays an acceptable value to the main ECU. Result: the main ECU thinks the 02 is running fine, see a perfect Cam/Crank correlation, and doesn't know we just added a massive amount of extra fuel via the 7th, and also tricked the main ECU into sending its spark later (retarded timing) by delaying the cam signal.
That's my understanding. I could be wrong but from a software, mechanical, and electronic stand point that makes the most sense to me and that's how I would build this system.
Again, if you look under your hood at the emissions label it will show you what your vehicle has. It will have a list that says "SFI, EVAP" etc and it will then either have "HO2S (2)" (standard oxygen sensor, and closed loop tuneable) or it will say "AFR" for Air Fuel Ratio sensor which is tuneable with a seperate URD controller.
Hope that helps.
I was told personally by gadget via email that my system (which is the 02 version) CAN and DOES change closed loop enrichment. In the same email he went on to say the "overpressure" setting is to tell the URD Kit when to start tricking the ECU to allow for that.
Here's a hypothetical scenario of my system's operation: it's at 2500 RPMs and I start to punch it so my boost pressure is at 2 psi. My URD Kit is set to 1 psi, so it activates and begins turning on the 7th injector. It simultaneously takes the now overly rich 02 signal voltage and skews it to a more acceptable voltage and sends that acceptable voltage to the main ECU. Meanwhile, it also takes the Cam and Crank sensor signals and delays/modifies accordingly to slow timing down, yet again relays an acceptable value to the main ECU. Result: the main ECU thinks the 02 is running fine, see a perfect Cam/Crank correlation, and doesn't know we just added a massive amount of extra fuel via the 7th, and also tricked the main ECU into sending its spark later (retarded timing) by delaying the cam signal.
That's my understanding. I could be wrong but from a software, mechanical, and electronic stand point that makes the most sense to me and that's how I would build this system.
Again, if you look under your hood at the emissions label it will show you what your vehicle has. It will have a list that says "SFI, EVAP" etc and it will then either have "HO2S (2)" (standard oxygen sensor, and closed loop tuneable) or it will say "AFR" for Air Fuel Ratio sensor which is tuneable with a seperate URD controller.
Hope that helps.
gamefreakgc
Elite Member
And this is why I did not install the URD system, lol.
